rico Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: The wire fraud and wire fraud conspiracy convictions carry potential sentences of 20 years. The judge has discretion and the legal pundits out there think they'll get a few years. Explain the wire fraud to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, rico said: Good question. Need some of our law expert members to chime in on this. But I view this as "victim-less crimes". Actually to me the kids are the victims in this because we have parents, agents and coaches pimping out these players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 I also wonder why the IRS has not got involved because I doubt the people claimed all of this money changing hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 40 minutes ago, rico said: Good question. Need some of our law expert members to chime in on this. But I view this as "victim-less crimes". The victims are the clean programs who have for years dealt with an unlevel playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just now, FKIM01 said: The victims are the clean programs who have for years dealt with an unlevel playing field. Leave CBB out of it......I want to know what crimes have actually been committed. Wire fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, rico said: Leave CBB out of it......I want to know what crimes have actually been committed. Wire fraud. With all the tawdry press coverage, I'll go with 'indecent exposure'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, rico said: Leave CBB out of it......I want to know what crimes have actually been committed. Wire fraud. Could it be money laundering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just now, IU Scott said: Could it be money laundering I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FW_Hoosier Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: The thing is, the prosecution prosecuted the case essentially on the basis that the schools and coaches are victims. The underlying theory being that, through the conduct of the Adidas personnel and the middle men, the high school players / student athletes would eventually be ineligible, thereby hurting the schools. This, of course, is at best stretching the reality of the various schools/coaching staffs' involvement, and I'm wondering how it squares with the prosecution of the coaches in the separate matters. The theory will shift. Basically, it's worth keeping in mind that the prosecution had a goal, getting convictions, which were focused on the shoe company / middle man side. This wasn't about the schools and coaching staffs' involvement. That's for another day. You think the prosecution’s theory will shift that much? I would assume that the government will be trying to prove that these assistant coaches were “rogue agents” defrauding their universities without the knowledge of the rest of the coaching staff — pretty similar to the prosecution’s theory of the case for the Adidas runners. Either way, have to think that the defense will have a much stronger case when it comes to the assistant coaches. And that there will be a lot more interesting evidence to present... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 3 hours ago, IU Scott said: I am sorry but it still sickens me to think the IU fan base is willing to look the other way just for us to win another championship. I guess we should just go out and all rob banks as long as we don't get caught and everyone else is doing it. IU fans use to stand for something and it was to win but doing it the right way and made beating programs like UK even more sweeter. I just can't see RMK breaking rules with how outspoken he was against know cheaters and he won without stooping into that filth. Teams like UW, butler and Villanova has proven to be able to compete without cheating so why can't IU. We have no idea if UW, Villanova, and Butler are clean. I would tend to think that Butler might be, but at this point I just kind of assume top players have received something. How do we know that Jalen Brunson and the Spellman kid (both 5*'s) didn't get anything from shoe companies? I'm also actually glad you brought robbing a bank, because it highlights my perspective. I don't want IU cheat, but the difference is if I rob a bank I'll have the authorities hunting me down and prosecuting me to the fullest extent of the law. In college basketball, everyone (law enforcement, NCAA, coaches, agents, players, media, shoe companies, etc.) knows cheating is happening and none of them care. The people in charge have said they don't care and that it's akin to going 10mph over the speed limit, not robbing a bank. So if 90% of the competition is doing it and nobody in charge cares, then I don't have much interest in watching my team get spanked and go 30 years without really competing over some moral high ground that doesn't even exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, BGleas said: We have no idea if UW, Villanova, and Butler are clean. I would tend to think that Butler might be, but at this point I just kind of assume top players have received something. How do we know that Jalen Brunson and the Spellman kid (both 5*'s) didn't get anything from shoe companies? I'm also actually glad you brought robbing a bank, because it highlights my perspective. I don't want IU cheat, but the difference is if I rob a bank I'll have the authorities hunting me down and prosecuting me to the fullest extent of the law. In college basketball, everyone (law enforcement, NCAA, coaches, agents, players, media, shoe companies, etc.) knows cheating is happening and none of them care. The people in charge have said they don't care and that it's akin to going 10mph over the speed limit, not robbing a bank. So if 90% of the competition is doing it and nobody in charge cares, then I don't have much interest in watching my team get spanked and go 30 years without really competing over some moral high ground that doesn't even exist. I guess I am just different than most on here because I would rather never win another championship if it meant we had to cheat to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just now, IU Scott said: I guess I am just different than most on here because I would rather never win another championship if it meant we had to cheat to win If this plays out with Kansas and Bill Self walking away clean, and Coach K walking away clean, and all these other schools walking away clean, then I guess my point is that I no longer consider working with the shoe companies in such a manner cheating. The government, the NCAA, the media, the coaches and the universities will have all told us that this is an acceptable practice, and not one they will seriously investigate or punish. Also, it's not even about championships, it's about competing on an even remotely level playing field. Like I said, I don't want IU dropping off bags of cash for Zion Williamson or DeAndre Ayton, but if we need to pull some Adidas strings to keep Langford, TJD and Brooks from going to UK, Louisville, Duke, MSU, UNC or Kansas because those schools are paying, and the system is saying they don't care, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, BGleas said: If this plays out with Kansas and Bill Self walking away clean, and Coach K walking away clean, and all these other schools walking away clean, then I guess my point is that I no longer consider working with the shoe companies in such a manner cheating. The government, the NCAA, the media, the coaches and the universities will have all told us that this is an acceptable practice, and not one they will seriously investigate or punish. Also, it's not even about championships, it's about competing on an even remotely level playing field. Like I said, I don't want IU dropping off bags of cash for Zion Williamson or DeAndre Ayton, but if we need to pull some Adidas strings to keep Langford, TJD and Brooks from going to UK, Louisville, Duke, MSU, UNC or Kansas because those schools are paying, and the system is saying they don't care, then so be it. Guess we will just agree to disagree on this subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I guess I am just different than most on here because I would rather never win another championship if it meant we had to cheat to win Would it really be considered cheating still if the rules that are supposedly broken are not being enforced/ignored by the governing body that created them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just to be clear, my thoughts here are predicated on the assumption that the NCAA isn't going to do anything about what we've learned. If the NCAA now has the power and desire to crack down, then of course my ultimate desire is for IU to be clean and see these other programs/coaches go down in flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: Would it really be considered cheating still if the rules that are supposedly broken are not being enforced/ignored by the governing body that created them? Yes it would still be cheating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 16 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Guess we will just agree to disagree on this subject I get where you're coming from. Part of me agreed with you until recently. But over the last week or so when you have Roy Williams saying that this is all news to him and he's never heard of anything like this in his years recruiting, and Coach K calling it a 'blip' and not how recruiting really works. Then yesterday you have Coach K saying on national TV with a straight face that Duke hasn't embraced the 'one and done' culture, and then when asked about Zion Williamson the interviewer only asked about his dunk highlight reel, not if he's gotten paid or how his family now lives in the most upscale neighborhood in Durham (rumor I read, not sure if that's accurate), and yesterday we have Bill Self, the man who approved payments to players, sitting up at a press conference announcing Silvio De Sousa's suspension pending an investigation into whether he took payments that were directed to be given by Bill Self, it ticks me off. You also had the Kansas admin releasing a statement that they believe Bill Self and his staff did nothing wrong. You have recruiting reporters touting the amazing work that Sean Miller and Chris Mack have done recruiting for 2019, without even a question of how they're doing it?!?! Why isn't Bill Self suspended pending an investigation into whether he's paid recruits for years? Why isn't Coach K suspended indefinitely until we know if Williamson took bribes? To me, it's these coaches, universities and the media giving the fans a big middle finger. So yes, I'm if nothing is done to these guys, then I'm kind of at the "screw the system' point, I want to see IU compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 ^^ Gleas, keep in mind this prosecution was against the Adidas personnel and middle-men. We haven't seen what the prosecution of the assistant coaches, etc. will bring. UNC etc. has always denied, denied, denied, why expect them to do anything different now? And, those schools are not going to say anything or take action which they think might further expose them, as opposed to individuals potentially involved, to criminal charges. Let's wait and see what happens with the subsequent prosecutions before drawing conclusions relating to the schools and coaches from this prosecution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said: You think the prosecution’s theory will shift that much? I would assume that the government will be trying to prove that these assistant coaches were “rogue agents” defrauding their universities without the knowledge of the rest of the coaching staff — pretty similar to the prosecution’s theory of the case for the Adidas runners. Either way, have to think that the defense will have a much stronger case when it comes to the assistant coaches. And that there will be a lot more interesting evidence to present... I don't know -- but my thinking, from a lawsuit/prosecution strategy standpoint, is this prosecution had its own objectives, and they do not coincide with the prosecution of coaching staff personnel. What was said, the evidence, etc., in this prosecution is not only irrelevant from a legal standpoint to the subesquent prosecutions, it's all inadmissible. I see no reason to think they will employ an identical theory. The prosecutions are different. We're talking school staff alleged to be directly involved in illegal behavior. There's just no reason to think the prosecution would go out of its way to paint the schools as the victims of their own agents' actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTrojan88 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 If the NCAA turns a blind eye to all of this then their very existence going forward should come into question. They basically have Dollar Bill and his staff by the sack if they want to make them an example. I doubt they will which is both sad and maddening.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: ^^ Gleas, keep in mind this prosecution was against the Adidas personnel and middle-men. We haven't seen what the prosecution of the assistant coaches, etc. will bring. UNC etc. has always denied, denied, denied, why expect them to do anything different now? And, those schools are not going to say anything or take action which they think might further expose them, as opposed to individuals potentially involved, to criminal charges. Let's wait and see what happens with the subsequent prosecutions before drawing conclusions relating to the schools and coaches from this prosecution. I get it, and my position is based on the assumption that the NCAA, govt, etc. doesn't do anything. I also get the 'deny, deny, deny' aspect but part of that happens because the coaches and universities know that if they deny nothing will happen. It's just maddening to me that the media doesn't ask the tough questions and we all just lap up the denials, etc. Like I said, I get your point, and my point is based on a future outcome that we don't know yet. If the coaches/programs ultimately end up getting hammered, as they should, then, of course, I want IU to be clean and not break the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 Admittedly, I am not following the story outside this thread, but was Sean Miller and Arizona even discussed in the proceedings this week or was it all about Kansas and Self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, BGleas said: I get where you're coming from. Part of me agreed with you until recently. But over the last week or so when you have Roy Williams saying that this is all news to him and he's never heard of anything like this in his years recruiting, and Coach K calling it a 'blip' and not how recruiting really works. Then yesterday you have Coach K saying on national TV with a straight face that Duke hasn't embraced the 'one and done' culture, and then when asked about Zion Williamson the interviewer only asked about his dunk highlight reel, not if he's gotten paid or how his family now lives in the most upscale neighborhood in Durham (rumor I read, not sure if that's accurate), and yesterday we have Bill Self, the man who approved payments to players, sitting up at a press conference announcing Silvio De Sousa's suspension pending an investigation into whether he took payments that were directed to be given by Bill Self, it ticks me off. You also had the Kansas admin releasing a statement that they believe Bill Self and his staff did nothing wrong. You have recruiting reporters touting the amazing work that Sean Miller and Chris Mack have done recruiting for 2019, without even a question of how they're doing it?!?! Why isn't Bill Self suspended pending an investigation into whether he's paid recruits for years? Why isn't Coach K suspended indefinitely until we know if Williamson took bribes? To me, it's these coaches, universities and the media giving the fans a big middle finger. So yes, I'm if nothing is done to these guys, then I'm kind of at the "screw the system' point, I want to see IU compete. I want to see us compete and I think we can without having to do what those other schools are doing. Say all of your friends and brothers are in a gang do you just go ahead and join because all of your friends are in the gang. You see them with a lot of money and other things but you know it is wrong so you don't join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 I seem to remember that Cam Newtons dad took money to steer Cam to Auburn. When all was said and done Cam and Auburn were never punished because “Cam never knew about it”. Could this be the same way this is handled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted October 25, 2018 Report Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: I want to see us compete and I think we can without having to do what those other schools are doing. Say all of your friends and brothers are in a gang do you just go ahead and join because all of your friends are in the gang. You see them with a lot of money and other things but you know it is wrong so you don't join. No, because if I join a gang and break the law the police/govt are going to arrest and prosecute me. The threat of going to jail for a long time is very, very real, as is the threat of harming people in a very serious way. That is not happening in this case, at least to this point. In this case, the police (NCAA) are saying they don't care and 'gangs' are not anything they're concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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