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General State of Recruiting Thread

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6 hours ago, Threedom said:

2 issues I see with recruiting:  glaring need has not yet been added and recruiting does not appear to be on the upswing (actually the opposite at the moment).

I think we have shooters on the team, they just need seasoned a bit. Durham, Phinisee, Damezi, Hunter, and Franklin can either shoot it well or are capable, just need a little seasoning as multi-year players. 

Archie has landed 3 solid classes so far. Signing day is months away. This momentum or upswing mentality is purely fan hand wringing. Check back after signing day this fall and if we haven’t landed good players, then be concerned. But nothing Archie has done in recruiting thus far say he won’t land multiple good players in each class. 

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57 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I think we have shooters on the team, they just need seasoned a bit. Durham, Phinisee, Damezi, Hunter, and Franklin can either shoot it well or are capable, just need a little seasoning as multi-year players. 

Archie has landed 3 solid classes so far. Signing day is months away. This momentum or upswing mentality is purely fan hand wringing. Check back after signing day this fall and if we haven’t landed good players, then be concerned. But nothing Archie has done in recruiting thus far say he won’t land multiple good players in each class. 

A few things that are not all related to your post.

1.  I see the same extrapolation of data on Miller right now that we saw on Crean when he first took over.  There were warning signs with Crean as well and they were swept away by the "there IS sanity on this board" crowd by saying he will do better based on getting better talent.  Wish-casting is not really an argument IMO.  There are concerns with his record at Dayton (yeah, he had lesser talent but so did 75% of the teams he played given his conference), his team's offensive struggles, and his penchant for early exits out of tournaments.

2.  You can have good recruits and still have not good recruiting classes because the kids you bring in do not fit needs.  I think it is pretty clear in this day and age that you need shooters.  I don't think we have that right now.  We have a really streaky shooter who may shoot 40% overall but the majority of that 40% comes over 10 or 15 games.  The other half of the year it is almost non-existent.  You need to consistently shoot well across a season as a team.  Saying we have a guy or two who can get hot is not having "shooters" in my mind.  My concern about the class is not that we do not have a couple of good players, it is that we did not address that huge, glaring need.

3.  Yes, we can wait until signing period but from appearances we missed out on 2 guys who the staff had made pretty high priorities in 2019 and 2020.  We have more time to recover from Morton but it appears to me that we had far too many eggs in the Brooks basket.

4.  Recruiting can turn around but I think we really need on court results to help it.  I am not really bullish on next year's team right now.  Our knowns for the team are mostly negative if people are honest with themselves.  People saying we have a positive outlook are basing that more on hope than anything at this point.  Which is fine, be an optimist...but don't think that your position is any more sane.  It isn't.

5.  I think FKIM said above that people had unrealistic expectations that we were going to the finals in year 2.  I think that is a complete crock, sorry.  The guarded (pessimistic, negative nancies, etc) were not putting out that argument.  In fact, when we were 12-3 they were saying we may have a problem.  No, the people who build up the expectations are the optimist types.  They convince themselves that X, Y, and Z are all just going to work themselves out.  Like right now, there are those on the board saying we might have a problem and they expect it to be a struggle to make the tournament next year.  If we miss, I guarantee that we will see posts about fans having unrealistic expectations and those will be directed at the guarded people again.  In optimist land you get to build up the expectations and then call others insane when they had lower expectations than you to begin with and even those were not met.  Then you falsely accuse them of having the insane expectation that in reality you yourself were spreading.

Edited by IUCrazy2
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11 hours ago, 5fouls said:
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  • I'm not upset at all that we missed out on Brooks.  I don't know anything about him, other than he decided to leave his school in Ft. Wayne to play at LaLum.  And, I realize that one thing should not define my perception of him, but it does.  He may very well be a great kid. 

Brooks had red flags on him early on.  How many here remember his HS coach telling him to stay home for an away game his Jr. year at FW North?  

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I have no clue what some of you folks do for a living and honestly I don't want to know. In my business if I'm spending top 10 money nationally I'm expecting signs of top 10 return. Jury is still out on Archie and yes...you have to give him his time but the best leaders/owners look for signs of promise or negative signs to see if the return is coming. Right now I'd say we've had very solid recruiting classes, missed the tourney twice, and have missed on 3 priority targets to end 2nd full recruiting cycle....nothing about that scenario says promise and nothing says sky is falling. It just says we'll see. 

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1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

A few things that are not all related to your post.

1.  I see the same extrapolation of data on Miller right now that we saw on Crean when he first took over.  There were warning signs with Crean as well and they were swept away by the "there IS sanity on this board" crowd by saying he will do better based on getting better talent.  Wish-casting is not really an argument IMO.  There are concerns with his record at Dayton (yeah, he had lesser talent but so did 75% of the teams he played given his conference), his team's offensive struggles, and his penchant for early exits out of tournaments.

2.  You can have good recruits and still have not good recruiting classes because the kids you bring in do not fit needs.  I think it is pretty clear in this day and age that you need shooters.  I don't think we have that right now.  We have a really streaky shooter who may shoot 40% overall but the majority of that 40% comes over 10 or 15 games.  The other half of the year it is almost non-existent.  You need to consistently shoot well across a season as a team.  Saying we have a guy or two who can get hot is not having "shooters" in my mind.  My concern about the class is not that we do not have a couple of good players, it is that we did not address that huge, glaring need.

3.  Yes, we can wait until signing period but from appearances we missed out on 2 guys who the staff had made pretty high priorities in 2019 and 2020.  We have more time to recover from Morton but it appears to me that we had far too many eggs in the Brooks basket.

4.  Recruiting can turn around but I think we really need on court results to help it.  I am not really bullish on next year's team right now.  Our knowns for the team are mostly negative if people are honest with themselves.  People saying we have a positive outlook are basing that more on hope than anything at this point.  Which is fine, be an optimist...but don't think that your position is any more sane.  It isn't.

5.  I think FKIM said above that people had unrealistic expectations that we were going to the finals in year 2.  I think that is a complete crock, sorry.  The guarded (pessimistic, negative nancies, etc) were not putting out that argument.  In fact, when we were 12-3 they were saying we may have a problem.  No, the people who build up the expectations are the optimist types.  They convince themselves that X, Y, and Z are all just going to work themselves out.  Like right now, there are those on the board saying we might have a problem and they expect it to be a struggle to make the tournament next year.  If we miss, I guarantee that we will see posts about fans having unrealistic expectations and those will be directed at the guarded people again.  In optimist land you get to build up the expectations and then call others insane when they had lower expectations than you to begin with and even those were not met.  Then you falsely accuse them of having the insane expectation that in reality you yourself were spreading.

Stop on.  

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9 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

I don't know if high level talent is critical as much as highER level talent is.  I fully expect Archie to maintain a markedly better talent pool than he had at Dayton.  Anecdotally, he seems to get more from less, so he may have great success with mostly 50-150 talent, with the occasional elite talent mixed in.  Obviously, I can't prove that hypothesis until more time passes, but I have a gut feeling that we will see exactly that...a continued trending up and along with that, an improving talent pool. 

This is remarkably similar to what I read from others and indeed thought myself when Archie was first hired. But two seasons in, it's tough to see much evidence for it.

That summer before his first season I recall conversations discussing how Archie would have more talent on hand then he'd ever had available before at Dayton. Though we had lost three good players to the NBA, we now had a coach with a plan, and a system to get more out of the guys still on the roster than the previous coach had been able. If the criticism of Crean was that he wasn't much for strategy and structure, but relied on talent and player development, I was excited to see what a coach who emphasized structure could accomplish. I tuned in for that first game.. and watched us get run out of our own place by Indiana State. I thought we found something with the comeback against Notre Dame, then Fort Wayne happened. A decidedly average Big Ten season followed, closed out with a loss to a bad Rutgers team. The excitement I felt to start the season was replaced by skepticism.

This past season we did have a roster full of 50-150 kids, with two All-Big Ten talents leading the way. But even with the injuries we suffered, it's tough to find many instances where we played as more than the sum of our parts. Maybe against Marquette, and those two baffling wins against Michigan State. But too often we let inferior teams hang around and even beat us. It happened against UC Davis and UT Arlington, and Penn State and Northwestern, even when we were still riding high at 12-2. And of course it happened regularly during the stretch where we lost 12 of 13, failing to show up for all or part of those games. 

I get that it's just his second season. I've heard enough successful coaches preach culture that I accept it's an important part of any successful program. But man, it's been two seasons, and I'm just not seeing evidence of a culture being built. We wondered all season about acrimony and dissension in the locker room, yet the only guys to leave were two backups who never saw the floor. I keep reading comments like the one I quoted, echoing the same hopes established when Archie was first hired, but I'm just not seeing it on the court. So instead, now I also hear that Crean just didn't leave enough in the cupboard, and left a roster full of holes. And thus my concern with our recruiting, and the point of this thread.

We do have holes in this roster, shooting being the most obvious. Archie acknowledged it before the first game of the season, and after our last game in the NIT. Where are Archie's recruited shooters? We have a serious lack of guard depth, with just four on scholarship, missing on a whole bunch of others. Meanwhile we've stockpiled forwards, more guys with no perimeter game who will clog the lane that Archie wants his offense to drive through. I'm down on next year's team because I really don't like the way our pieces fit together. It's great that we got Romeo. It's great that we got Trayce. But Crean was criticized for chasing recruiting stars without having a plan for building his roster. Two seasons in I don't know Archie's plan for his roster, and that's why I have concerns about recruiting, in the 2019 class and beyond.

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HOOSIER FANS :

Have lost that winnin' feeling

Whoa, that winnin' feeling

Hoosier fans have lost that winnin' feeling

Now, it's gone, gone, gone.   whoa, oh, oh

 

Now there's no welcome look when the Hoosiers take the floor

And the fans are starting to criticize everything they say and do.

It makes me feel like crying

Cause Hoosier fans, something beautiful's dyin'

 

Bring back that winnin' feeling

Whoa, that winnin' feeling

Bring back that winnin' feeling

'Cause it's gone, gone, gone

And we can't go on. whoa oh, oh,oh

 

Bring it on back.

Bring it on back

Bring it on back

 

Bring back that winnin' feeling

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Yeah, the resume is pretty mediocre. Don't get me wrong, I like CAM but my goodness, how many shots does Glass think he's going to get? He had a chance to move on from someone who he didn't hire and was a terrible coach and this was the best he could do?

Minnesota could have made that hire.

That is non sense because everyone national media outlet had Archie as one of the top young coaching candidates in the country.

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3 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I have no clue what some of you folks do for a living and honestly I don't want to know. In my business if I'm spending top 10 money nationally I'm expecting signs of top 10 return. Jury is still out on Archie and yes...you have to give him his time but the best leaders/owners look for signs of promise or negative signs to see if the return is coming. Right now I'd say we've had very solid recruiting classes, missed the tourney twice, and have missed on 3 priority targets to end 2nd full recruiting cycle....nothing about that scenario says promise and nothing says sky is falling. It just says we'll see. 

This is an excellent, realistic assessment of our current situation. One point I would make is the 2nd full recruiting cycle has not ended if you were referring to the 2019 class being complete. With grad transfers, reclassifications, and de-commitments, rosters aren't set for sure until at least August.  We have available scholarships,  so our roster is not yet set in stone for the upcoming season. 

This season is key for assessing program trajectory.  We were on the bubble last season, so that needs to improve. But it will also be important to evaluate how offensive and defensive systems improve, along with how the 2020 recruiting class develops.  None of these things can be fully assessed until the completion of the season.

Edited by Hoosierinbham
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1 hour ago, Hoosierinbham said:

This is an excellent, realistic assessment of our current situation. One point I would make is the 2nd full recruiting cycle has not ended if you were referring to the 2019 class being complete. With grad transfers, reclassifications, and de-commitments, rosters aren't set for sure until at least August.  We have available scholarships,  so our roster is not yet set in stone for the upcoming season. 

This season is key for assessing program trajectory.  We were on the bubble last season, so that needs to improve. But it will also be important to evaluate how offensive and defensive systems improve, along with how the 2020 recruiting class develops.  None of these things can be fully assessed until the completion of the season.

You're technically right about the 2019 class, but there's a very good possibility (likely IMO) that the roster for next year is set.  That's fine with me as it means the staff knows who they have and can prepare accordingly.

It seems that this affords us the opportunity to fully assess Archie's coaching ability. Not necessarily expecting a top 3 finish in the B10, but to see solid and consistent play.  If we get beat playing well but the other team has more talent or experience, so be it. But excuses for players needing to learn the system, uncertainty over the roster or bad attitude from certain players won't cut it.  I really hope we avoid more injuries so we can eliminate that excuse.

I've really believed in CAM's ability and knowledge of the game.  Now I want to see some convincing evidence.

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It is so frustrating reading so many negative posts from IU fans in regards to our current recruiting. Yes,.....we have been missing out on targeted recruits lately, but no one has any idea, (including myself) how much work Archie and staff put in to try to land these guys. You have to give Miller and Co. props for making IU attractive again to these top recruits. Continually being in top 5 lists is always encouraging.

At the end of the today's kids want to be on a team that's "shiny", attractive and trending up. They want instant gratification, exposure and the quickest way to get to the NBA. I think, more and more, these kids care less about "Storied History" of schools like IU. Kids want to play on these, what I call, "NBA prep teams" or any team that can get them PAID the quickest. Sure,.....I will take any of these highly desired 5* and 4* players, but sometimes those type of players, (who are often playing for themselves) can destroy a team's identity.

As far as I'm concerned, If Lester and Trendon and others decide to go elsewhere, so be it. I would love to have them, but it sure wasn't for the lack of trying.

Here's an idea......IU's current 2019-2020 basketball team, including TJD, Franklin and Brunk have a break out year.  Archie gets things figured out and IU is finally trending up. IU goes deep in the Big Ten Tournament and easily makes the NCAA tourney. Archie is mentioned for Coach of the Year. (<<<<I had to add that one....😃)  This may be a stretch, but it could be a possibility. IMO, the only way this is going to work is if Jerome Hunter is healthy and finally shows his abilities.

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4 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

You're technically right about the 2019 class, but there's a very good possibility (likely IMO) that the roster for next year is set.  That's fine with me as it means the staff knows who they have and can prepare accordingly.

It seems that this affords us the opportunity to fully assess Archie's coaching ability. Not necessarily expecting a top 3 finish in the B10, but to see solid and consistent play.  If we get beat playing well but the other team has more talent or experience, so be it. But excuses for players needing to learn the system, uncertainty over the roster or bad attitude from certain players won't cut it.  I really hope we avoid more injuries so we can eliminate that excuse.

I've really believed in CAM's ability and knowledge of the game.  Now I want to see some convincing evidence.

Good post. I still think recruiting/transfers has evolved so much in the last couple years, it's hard to know what to expect. Fun to project and speculate with line ups, and the unknown also adds an element of intrigue. Glad we have a coach now that manages the roster to allow us to grab a player that could help if/when they become available. 

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Every school has it's bad apples. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Calipari, K, Izzo, Painter, etc. People are going to complain about the play on the court and complain about recruiting. I don't know why we focus or give any extra attention to the naysayers. Archie is going to get 4 years regardless. In the end only time will tell. Until then and even after, there is no point in debating or giving attention the negativity, it can only do more harm in continuing the cycle. 

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11 hours ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Yeah, the resume is pretty mediocre. Don't get me wrong, I like CAM but my goodness, how many shots does Glass think he's going to get? He had a chance to move on from someone who he didn't hire and was a terrible coach and this was the best he could do?

Minnesota could have made that hire.

Which Big 10 coaches had better resumes at the time of their hiring than Archie?  

Beilein? probably is the only one

Holtman has a comparable one- but not any better.

Maybe Hoiberg- but I'm pretty skeptical about Hoiberg

 

Izzo, Underwood, Pitino, Painter, etc-  None of those guys had better resumes than Archie.

People love trashing athletic directors- they're an easy target.  What exactly did Fred Glass do wrong?  

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Blazin Hazin said:

Which Big 10 coaches had better resumes at the time of their hiring than Archie?  

Beilein? probably is the only one

Holtman has a comparable one- but not any better.

Maybe Hoiberg- but I'm pretty skeptical about Hoiberg

 

Izzo, Underwood, Pitino, Painter, etc-  None of those guys had better resumes than Archie.

People love trashing athletic directors- they're an easy target.  What exactly did Fred Glass do wrong?  

 

 

 

 

Fran McCaffery.....

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2 hours ago, Maedhros said:

This past season we did have a roster full of 50-150 kids, with two All-Big Ten talents leading the way. But even with the injuries we suffered, it's tough to find many instances where we played as more than the sum of our parts. Maybe against Marquette, and those two baffling wins against Michigan State. But too often we let inferior teams hang around and even beat us. It happened against UC Davis and UT Arlington, and Penn State and Northwestern, even when we were still riding high at 12-2. And of course it happened regularly during the stretch where we lost 12 of 13, failing to show up for all or part of those games.

You're ignoring the fact that a large part of the team was not chosen by Archie to fit his system and the entire team had a season at best learning that system before last season.  Almost half of the team was brand new to Archie's system.

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3 minutes ago, rico said:

Fran McCaffery.....

How so?  2 NCAA wins?  

Not even saying Archie is a better coach than McCaffery- but by what criteria would McCaffery be a better hire than Archie?

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25 minutes ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Every school has it's bad apples. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Calipari, K, Izzo, Painter, etc. People are going to complain about the play on the court and complain about recruiting. I don't know why we focus or give any extra attention to the naysayers. Archie is going to get 4 years regardless. In the end only time will tell. Until then and even after, there is no point in debating or giving attention the negativity, it can only do more harm in continuing the cycle. 

Jeez, some of you guys are so sensitive.  Yeah, the hysteria on Twitter and the Rivals board is ridiculous and probably harmful.  But I haven’t seen a single poster on here recently that’s been acting like a “bad apple.”  Pretty much all of the “crazy negative fan” posts I’ve seen criticized on here are actually well-thought out and reasoned posts expressing concern about the state of the program coming off a massively disappointing season with a relatively unproven coach who looks to be missing out on a lot of his recruiting targets lately.  

Mentioning Cal, K, Izzo, and Painter in this situation is a joke.  This entire board would be a total runaway hype train right now if we’d had even half of their results in the last two years.  As it is, the program hasn’t been able to meet even pretty meager expectations thus far in Archie’s tenure.  Expressing measured concern about underwhelming results isn’t “hurting the program,” losing on the court and in recruiting is.

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2 minutes ago, Blazin Hazin said:

How so?  2 NCAA wins?  

Not even saying Archie is a better coach than McCaffery- but by what criteria would McCaffery be a better hire than Archie?

I would say he was more "seasoned".  He has taken 3 other schools to the NCAAT.  Not that I disagree with you at all, but Fran did have an impressive resume.

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36 minutes ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Every school has it's bad apples. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Calipari, K, Izzo, Painter, etc. People are going to complain about the play on the court and complain about recruiting. I don't know why we focus or give any extra attention to the naysayers. Archie is going to get 4 years regardless. In the end only time will tell. Until then and even after, there is no point in debating or giving attention the negativity, it can only do more harm in continuing the cycle. 

Since everyone is entitled to their opinion I'll give mine. I've really enjoyed using the "ignored users" feature of this site. Once implemented I've found my user experience to be comparable to watching Devonte Green jack up threes when he's on fire. 

Screen Shot 2019-05-09 at 11.01.39 AM.png

Edited by SawatchHoosier
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Get old stay old.  That is what Archie wants to do.  The kids he just offered will help with that goal if they commit.  All you have to do is look at the national championship game and the players they had.  Would I rather have a Fab 5, yes, but unless you can do that every year I just don’t think it is the way to go.  

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16 minutes ago, SawatchHoosier said:

Since everyone is entitled to their opinion I'll give mine. I've really enjoyed using the "ignored users" feature of this site. Once implemented I've found my user experience to be comparable to watching Devonte Green jack up threes when he's on fire. 

Screen Shot 2019-05-09 at 11.01.39 AM.png

I am probably on your ignore list...but man, I second FW_Hoosier.  Some of you are too sensitive.  People pull out the pom-poms when things are going well and they clutch the pearls when they are not.

Seems like some of you don't want a discussion forum, you want a car bumper to put stickers on.  It is ok to question and criticize just like it is ok to cheer and hope.  Sometimes you can do it all.

Miller is not a god.  He has flaws.  It is ok to discuss those flaws.  He also has positives.  It is ok to talk about those too.  I think this place would be pretty boring if all the talk was:

"I hope Hunter comes back and turns into Oladipo.  He is going to surprise a bunch of people and lead us to the Sweet 16!"

"Ditto"

"I want what your selling."

"Hey guys isn't it a bit unfair to put those kind of expectations on someone who was hurt all year?"<click, click...ignore>

"HOO-HOO-HOO-HOOSIERS!!!  We are back BABY!"

"The Big Ten better watch out..."

Then next April....

"We'll get them next year.  Yeah we were 19-15 and made it a round further in the NIT, so progress.  I mean, the team was being led by Crean recruits and guys that Archie had to cobble together at the last minute.  All these people with their unrealistic expectations need to chill.  He should get 4 years and we have TJD coming back and new shiny recruits coming in that we can foist unrealistic expectations on...."

"Yeah, screw the h8trz...IU is back baby!!!!"

Edited by IUCrazy2
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3 minutes ago, Hard Hat said:

Get old stay old.  That is what Archie wants to do.  The kids he just offered will help with that goal if they commit.  All you have to do is look at the national championship game and the players they had.  Would I rather have a Fab 5, yes, but unless you can do that every year I just don’t think it is the way to go.  

The Fab 5 never won a title of any kind, conference or NCAA so I would rather have a team like UVA with a lot of older experience players.

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