5fouls Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) Creating this thread based on the discussion in the Scott Rolen thread. The purpose of the exercise is to see what the Hall would look like if it only included the best of the best. So, Anyway, here's how I am going to approach my 50 most Hall-Worthy players list. Players should be valued against their peers. but this means not only generational peers, but their positional peers as well. Based on that concept, I'm going to put together 3 all-time teams of 14 players each. Each team will consist of the following: C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, Utility (for multi-positional guys), SP, SP, SP, SP, & RP. That's 3 teams of 14 players each, which will get me to 42 players. That leaves me with 8 'bonus' spots for a deserving player that did not make the initial cut for the position in order to get to a Hall of 50. Taking a concept from Bracketology, I will then select a 'First 5 Out'. And, finally, I will look at active players that will likely crack the top 50 at some point in the future, which would result in bumping someone out. I mean, we have to keep it the elite of the elite. Right? I'm ready to get started on this and will try to get my 'First Team' posted tonight. Edited January 27, 2023 by 5fouls 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 I should also mention that players on the Permanently Ineligible list (Rose, Shoeless Joe, etc.) are NOT eligible for my Hall. However, players with the stain of steroids (Bonds, Clemens, etc.) are eligible for my Hall, but their placement or non-placement on the final 50-man list will factor include an adjustment due to the steroid use. I also will not include players that spent more than half their career prior to 1900, though those that straddled the turn of the century will be considered if half their career was from 1900 forward. The advent of the World Series kind of changed the dynamic of MLB around that time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 First Team Catcher - Johnny Bench (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for Catcher; 2 MVPs, 10 Gold Gloves) First Base - Lou Gehrig (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 1st Base; 2 MVPs, 2nd longest consecutive games played streak in history) Second Base - Rogers Hornsby (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 2nd Base, 2 MVPs, 3 seasons with batting over .400, Career OPS+ of 175) Third Base - Mike Schmidt (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 3rd Base, 3 MVPs, 10 Gold Gloves, Led NL in Home Runs 8 times) Shortstop - Honus Wagner (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for SS, Most of career pre-dates MVP voting, 8-time batting champ, 8th in career hits) Outfield - Babe Ruth (Career WAR leader for all MLB players, Career Adjusted OPS+ leader, 2nd AB per home run, Oh, and he pitched with a career 2.28 ERA) Outfield - Ty Cobb (6th Career WAR among all MLB players, Highest career batting average, 2nd all-time career hits, 2nd career runs scored, 4th career SB) Outfield - Willie Mays (Career WAR, WAR/162 and JAWS leader for CF, 6th career home runs, 2 MVPs, 12 Gold Gloves, 24 All-Star Games Utility - Stan Musial (11th Career WAR among all players, 4th in career hits, 4th in career extra-base hits; 3 MVPs, 24 All-Star games) S Pitcher - Cy Young (Career TOTAL pitching leader in WAR, Wins, Complete Games, and Innings Pitched, The damn award is named after him) S Pitcher - Walter Johnson (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS Leader for SP, 2nd in career wins, Career leader in Shutouts, 2.17 career E.R.A., Led league in K's 9 times) S Pitcher - Pete Alexander (5th in Career WAR for pitchers, 373 wins ranks 3rd all-time, 2nd all-time in Shutouts, 4-time E.R.A. leader) S Pitcher - Roger Clemens (3rd in Career WAR for pitchers, 7 Cy Young awards, 1 MVP, 7-time E.R.A. champ, 9th in career wins, 3rd in career strikeouts) R Pitcher - Mariano Rivera (Career WAR/162 leader for relief pitchers, Career leader in Saves, Career leader in ERA+, 13 All-Star games) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 Nice list... But if you're adjusting for the roids era, is there a way to adjust for WW2 era as well? Ted Williams and Bob Feller lost some primo years defending their country... Williams twice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Nice list... But if you're adjusting for the roids era, is there a way to adjust for WW2 era as well? Ted Williams and Bob Feller lost some primo years defending their country... Williams twice... Williams obviously is going to be on the 2nd team. Maybe best hitter of all time, but defense hurts him when talking Advanced metrics. Basically, had nowhere to put him without expanding the roster, or going away from the 'positional' concept. Is William's 'better' than Bench, Hornsby, and Schmidt in the grand scheme of things? Sure. But he doesnt play those more challenging positions. Edited January 27, 2023 by 5fouls 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 Man....CF alone is a tough one. Mantle, DiMaggio, Griffey Jr...not to mention Hank Aaron in RF. Will have to circle back to this thread later on. Good lineup for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 5 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Man....CF alone is a tough one. Mantle, DiMaggio, Griffey Jr...not to mention Hank Aaron in RF. Will have to circle back to this thread later on. Good lineup for sure. I'm not going to be super picky on OF positions. Granted, I'm not going to create a lineup with 3 terrible fielders, meaning I have no one to man CF. But, i dont mind moving a guy from CF to left or right. Chances are he played there at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 BTW @5fouls, I love these types of discussions. Curious though as to your criteria for the utility player. Basically, how many positions can a guy play to be considered? Am I making sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 Just now, rico said: BTW @5fouls, I love these types of discussions. Curious though as to your criteria for the utility player. Basically, how many positions can a guy play to be considered? Am I making sense? Basically, I knew going in that OF and 1B may have more 'Hall' candidates than other positions, and I didnt want elite players to be left out. So outfielders that can play all 3 spots, or in the case of Musial, someone that spent time in both the OF and 1B would qualify. In other words, I'm not going to search hard for a HOF level player in the mold of Kyle Farmer. Not many of those around, and the most obvious, Rose, is ineligible. Craig Biggio would be a candidate, but I need to feel comfortable putting him in the Top 50 once I get deeper into things. Not sure if he will make the cut or not. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 And, on that subject, Rico, those types of questions and @IUFLAquestion about Williams and Feller are great. I hope to continue having that type discussion/dialogue/debate as I continue to fill out the Top 50. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 14 hours ago, 5fouls said: First Team Catcher - Johnny Bench (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for Catcher; 2 MVPs, 10 Gold Gloves) First Base - Lou Gehrig (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 1st Base; 2 MVPs, 2nd longest consecutive games played streak in history) Second Base - Rogers Hornsby (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 2nd Base, 2 MVPs, 3 seasons with batting over .400, Career OPS+ of 175) Third Base - Mike Schmidt (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for 3rd Base, 3 MVPs, 10 Gold Gloves, Led NL in Home Runs 8 times) Shortstop - Honus Wagner (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS leader for SS, Most of career pre-dates MVP voting, 8-time batting champ, 8th in career hits) Outfield - Babe Ruth (Career WAR leader for all MLB players, Career Adjusted OPS+ leader, 2nd AB per home run, Oh, and he pitched with a career 2.28 ERA) Outfield - Ty Cobb (6th Career WAR among all MLB players, Highest career batting average, 2nd all-time career hits, 2nd career runs scored, 4th career SB) Outfield - Willie Mays (Career WAR, WAR/162 and JAWS leader for CF, 6th career home runs, 2 MVPs, 12 Gold Gloves, 24 All-Star Games Utility - Stan Musial (11th Career WAR among all players, 4th in career hits, 4th in career extra-base hits; 3 MVPs, 24 All-Star games) S Pitcher - Cy Young (Career TOTAL pitching leader in WAR, Wins, Complete Games, and Innings Pitched, The damn award is named after him) S Pitcher - Walter Johnson (Career WAR, WAR/162, and JAWS Leader for SP, 2nd in career wins, Career leader in Shutouts, 2.17 career E.R.A., Led league in K's 9 times) S Pitcher - Pete Alexander (5th in Career WAR for pitchers, 373 wins ranks 3rd all-time, 2nd all-time in Shutouts, 4-time E.R.A. leader) S Pitcher - Roger Clemens (3rd in Career WAR for pitchers, 7 Cy Young awards, 1 MVP, 7-time E.R.A. champ, 9th in career wins, 3rd in career strikeouts) R Pitcher - Mariano Rivera (Career WAR/162 leader for relief pitchers, Career leader in Saves, Career leader in ERA+, 13 All-Star games) Been perusing over this. After multiple looks, I have a problem with Clemens being on the "team". Metrics be damned! lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 30 minutes ago, rico said: Been perusing over this. After multiple looks, I have a problem with Clemens being on the "team". Metrics be damned! lol Strictly a 'roid thing, or do you think someone else was better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 28 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Strictly a 'roid thing, or do you think someone else was better? The 'roids play into it but I also took his career ERA into account. And I do think Mathewson was better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 47 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Strictly a 'roid thing, or do you think someone else was better? How many of those 7 Cy Youngs and other awards does he have without the juice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 44 minutes ago, rico said: The 'roids play into it but I also took his career ERA into account. And I do think Mathewson was better. 27 minutes ago, IUFLA said: How many of those 7 Cy Youngs and other awards does he have without the juice? A couple of factors. 1) If I had put Matthewson in place of Clemens, then all of my starting pitchers would have been from the dead ball era. That screams timeframe bias. And, frankly, the other 3 guys I have on the team were quite a bit better than Matthewson, which surprised me once I got deeper into looking at their career. 2) As far as Steroids are concerned, it is my belief that most of Clemens career took place before the juice. Even then, it's impossible to say for sure who was on and who wasn't. Maybe Maddux, Pedro, and R. Johnson were as well, and just never got caught. That's why I felt like I had to consider those guys. Bonds was left off first team because of it. He never would have been better than those other guys without it. Clemens was a much more difficult decision. I tried to find someone else, but honestly could not. Even had someone else typed in, but could not sell myself on it. The record just did not come close to Clemens. Edited January 27, 2023 by 5fouls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 23 minutes ago, IUFLA said: How many of those 7 Cy Youngs and other awards does he have without the juice? 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: A couple of factors. 1) If I had put Matthewson in place of Clemens, then all of my starting pitchers would have been from the dead ball era. That screams timeframe bias. And, frankly, the other 3 guys I have on the team were quite a bit better than Matthewson, which surprised me once I got deeper into looking at their career. 2) As far as Steroids are concerned, it is my belief that most of Clemens career took place before the juice. Even then, it's impossible to say for sure who was on and who wasn't. Maybe Maddux, Pedro, and R. Johnson were as well, and just never got caught. That's why I felt like I had to consider those guys. Bonds was left off first team because of it. He never would have been better than those other guys without it. Clemens was a much more difficult decision. I tried to find someone else, but honestly could not. Even had someone else typed in, but could not sell myself on it. The record just did not come close to Clemens. Fair enough. But Clemens would not be on my 1st team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, 5fouls said: A couple of factors. 1) If I had put Matthewson in place of Clemens, then all of my starting pitchers would have been from the dead ball era. That screams timeframe bias. And, frankly, the other 3 guys I have on the team were quite a bit better than Matthewson, which surprised me one I got deeper into looking at their career. 2) As far as Steroids are concerned, it is my belief that most of Clemens career took place before the juice. Even then, it's impossible to say for sure who was on and who wasn't. Maybe Maddux, Pedro, and R. Johnson were as well, and just never got caught. That's why I felt like I had to consider those guys. Bonds was left off first team because of it. He never would have been better than those other guys without it. Clemens was a much more difficult decision. I tried to find someone else, but honestly could not. Even had someone else typed in, but could not sell myself on it. The record just did not come close to Clemens. Just call me Mr Helper It's a nice analysis of what both Clemens and Bonds did on steroids, as opposed to projected numbers if they hadn't used... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 5 minutes ago, rico said: Fair enough. But Clemens would not be on my 1st team. None of the juicers would be on mine...They stole other players' legacys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: None of the juicers would be on mine...They stole other players' legacys... But would they be on your 2nd or 3rd teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: None of the juicers would be on mine...They stole other players' legacys... Unfortunately, we don't know who all the juicers were. And, cheating has always been around. Spit balls, corked bats, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 minute ago, rico said: But would they be on your 2nd or 3rd teams? Nope 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Unfortunately, we don't know who all the juicers were. But we do know that Clemens and Bonds were users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 Just now, 5fouls said: Unfortunately, we don't know who all the juicers were. And, cheating has always been around. Spit balls, corked bats, etc. If you read the extensive Mitchell Report, you have a pretty good idea... All the corked bats and spitballs in the world didn't tilt the playing field like steroids did... Anybody hit 60+ HRs with a corked bat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Nope Pretty much where I am at when talking the greatest of the greats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 But I don't want tothrow a good @5foulsthread off the rail...so, continue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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