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It’s time… Fire Mike Woodson


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It’s not about the wins and losses at this point. It’s about the refusal to adjust to what he has that could yield better results.

It is about being a rudderless program.

It’s about being a dirty program, and make no mistake, that’s what we are at this point.

It’s about embarrassing Don Fischer.

It is about the frequency with which we don’t even show up and compete. 15 losses by 15+ in 2.5 years.

Even our peak under Woodson - which involved a generational star, a lottery pick point guard, a criminally under used wing that is tearing up the G League, and a 6th year veteran 4 that was playing pro ball before he got hurt - didn’t compete for a conference title and got completely embarrassed the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

We are flirting with a season that would be the worst at IU since before Bob Knight, sans Crean’s first couple teams that were made up of football and baseball players. And that’s with two guards that have ten years of college experience combined, and a 5-star at the 3, 4, and 5 spot. Imperfect roster or not, there’s a long list of coaches that would have that makeup in the tournament, not playing as bad as any team in most of this boards lifetime  

Woodson has time to change some of these narratives before the end of the year, but time is running out and he hasn’t shown any willingness to use introspection. 

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oh wow.  this seems early, but i totally agree.  i don't think there's any way it happens, but i would have assumed if i started this thread that a certain regime would come hard at me!  i am very curious to hear how many think it should happen and how many think it won't happen.  

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This was just a terrible experiment from the beginning. The big mistake was trying to pacify those that wanted an "IU guy" .  At the time it seemed like an obvious reach and a desperation hire. I think it's far enough in to see that it was a major miss. But that hire has put them into such a bad place. Can you really fire him? The IU alum. The guy that Buckner seemingly hand picked?  I don't think that happens. Maybe if the remainder of the season just falls apart, even worse than what it has to this point. Best case is probably that they can convince Woodson it's time for him to "retire". That might be enough to somewhat save face for all parties.

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4 minutes ago, Basketball Junkie said:

This was just a terrible experiment from the beginning. The big mistake was trying to pacify those that wanted an "IU guy" .  At the time it seemed like an obvious reach and a desperation hire. I think it's far enough in to see that it was a major miss. But that hire has put them into such a bad place. Can you really fire him? The IU alum. The guy that Buckner seemingly hand picked?  I don't think that happens. Maybe if the remainder of the season just falls apart, even worse than what it has to this point. Best case is probably that they can convince Woodson it's time for him to "retire". That might be enough to somewhat save face for all parties.

It is turning into the worst case scenario worry that people had about the hire.  It will be turned into another instance of "fan expectations are just too high there, look how quick they turned on one of their own..."  That will be the narrative that gets played out and that is what most people who aren't paying attention will hear.

At best this was a bridge hire.  You hoped for some stability and then a passing of the torch to the next guy.  You looked to reestablish a connection to that past culture.  You hoped to make this a place that was attractive to big recruits with NIL and exciting "NBA style" play.  We got none of that.

Whether to retain or not is going to depend on how big of a disaster this ends up being.  Do they right the ship enough to get to 20 wins?  That probably buys him some time.  If the wheels completely fall off, I think you see players heading for the exits and then you HAVE to make a change.  You can't have a lame duck, with one signed recruit, going into the transfer portal trying to build a whole team.  You just can't.

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7 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

It is turning into the worst case scenario worry that people had about the hire.  It will be turned into another instance of "fan expectations are just too high there, look how quick they turned on one of their own..."  That will be the narrative that gets played out and that is what most people who aren't paying attention will hear.

At best this was a bridge hire.  You hoped for some stability and then a passing of the torch to the next guy.  You looked to reestablish a connection to that past culture.  You hoped to make this a place that was attractive to big recruits with NIL and exciting "NBA style" play.  We got none of that.

Whether to retain or not is going to depend on how big of a disaster this ends up being.  Do they right the ship enough to get to 20 wins?  That probably buys him some time.  If the wheels completely fall off, I think you see players heading for the exits and then you HAVE to make a change.  You can't have a lame duck, with one signed recruit, going into the transfer portal trying to build a whole team.  You just can't.

The last paragraph to me is the key part. I think we are going to see most everyone from this team gone next year. Guys like Banks and Gunn may be back. But it is going to be mostly an entire team built from the portal. It's not totally impossible but won't be easy. I like McNeeley as a piece of the puzzle but having him be who the team is built around is a recipe for disaster.

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5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

That would be 4 losses the rest of the way. I think there’s a better chance we finish under .500 than we win 20 games. 

There is quite a bit of garbage left on the schedule.  Not saying I expect it but it isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility if Woodson starts feeling the heat enough to make some of the very clear and easy changes available to him.

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:


 

I mean...at least we are good at something right?

Ya gotta laugh at this point KoB2011.  Either that or get way too upset about something we really have no control of.  I have been trying to tell myself all year that it is stupid for me to care about this more than the people with the closest investment to it all appear to be.

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22 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

It is turning into the worst case scenario worry that people had about the hire.  It will be turned into another instance of "fan expectations are just too high there, look how quick they turned on one of their own..."  That will be the narrative that gets played out and that is what most people who aren't paying attention will hear.

At best this was a bridge hire.  You hoped for some stability and then a passing of the torch to the next guy.  You looked to reestablish a connection to that past culture.  You hoped to make this a place that was attractive to big recruits with NIL and exciting "NBA style" play.  We got none of that.

Whether to retain or not is going to depend on how big of a disaster this ends up being.  Do they right the ship enough to get to 20 wins?  That probably buys him some time.  If the wheels completely fall off, I think you see players heading for the exits and then you HAVE to make a change.  You can't have a lame duck, with one signed recruit, going into the transfer portal trying to build a whole team.  You just can't.

i can't even imagine 20 wins.  need 8... home vs Iowa and Penn St., home vs. NW and Neb?  home vs MSU?  that's 5.  i mean 1 in the B1G tourney?  then you're still looking for 2 more assuming you win all of those home games.  so home vs Wisc?  maybe?  then a road game?  super hard to imagine.  

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I don’t think this team will win all the remaining home games or even all but one, and I really don’t feel good about the road games.

 Wisconsin, Nebraska, Northwestern, Iowa and Michigan State are going to come in and expect to beat us, no matter where the game is played. Why wouldn’t those teams think they’re beating us?

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1 minute ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i can't even imagine 20 wins.  need 8... home vs Iowa and Penn St., home vs. NW and Neb?  home vs MSU?  that's 5.  i mean 1 in the B1G tourney?  then you're still looking for 2 more assuming you win all of those home games.  so home vs Wisc?  maybe?  then a road game?  super hard to imagine.  

So this is all predicated on having to fix some things.  That being said, we have 6 home games left and then away games against Penn St., Maryland, Minnesota, and Ohio St. (we aren't going to beat Illinois or Purdue on the road).  It is a long shot but we do play better at home and outside of Wisconsin there really isn't anything that impressive about the rest of our home slate.  So win out at home and split on the road against the 4 mediocre teams left on the schedule and it you could do it.

I think we have the players that could do it but it would likely require a whole host of changes from the top down over this bye week to get done.

All that being said, do I expect that at this point?  No, not at all.  However, the schedule from here on out isn't terrible if you were looking to stack wins and even if they were to win 8 more that isn't going to get them in the tournament.  Right now Woodson has to be building his case for portal players that there is a reason to come here and for current players to stay invested.  

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don’t think this team will win all the remaining home games or even all but one, and I really don’t feel good about the road games.

 Wisconsin, Nebraska, Northwestern, Iowa and Michigan State are going to come in and expect to beat us, no matter where the game is played. Why wouldn’t those teams think they’re beating us?

I wouldn't even bet a dollar that we could do it but there is technically a chance.

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37 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

It is turning into the worst case scenario worry that people had about the hire.  It will be turned into another instance of "fan expectations are just too high there, look how quick they turned on one of their own..."  That will be the narrative that gets played out and that is what most people who aren't paying attention will hear.

At best this was a bridge hire.  You hoped for some stability and then a passing of the torch to the next guy.  You looked to reestablish a connection to that past culture.  You hoped to make this a place that was attractive to big recruits with NIL and exciting "NBA style" play.  We got none of that.

Whether to retain or not is going to depend on how big of a disaster this ends up being.  Do they right the ship enough to get to 20 wins?  That probably buys him some time.  If the wheels completely fall off, I think you see players heading for the exits and then you HAVE to make a change.  You can't have a lame duck, with one signed recruit, going into the transfer portal trying to build a whole team.  You just can't.

Last night Himmel did say something about how IU went through a lot of coaches since RMK.

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Last night Himmel did say something about how IU went through a lot of coaches since RMK.

I think that is because we try and win the press conference too much as opposed to finding the right guy.  We have money to spend and you can hire dynamic recruiters.  Sometimes the best hire is going to appear really boring in the press conference.

You just have to have someone in place doing the choosing who knows what they are looking for and has a plan.  I don't know how true all the Brad Stevens stuff was the last go around but not having a solid Plan B before swinging for the fences was stupid and I know he isn't Mr. Popular with a bunch of fans but if you were going to go and hire an "IU guy" to be the bridge, it should have been Alford.  I don't think that was best available but it would have been better than Woodson IMO.

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5 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

The only way that Woodson isn’t the coach is if he decides he can’t do the job and retires. I don’t see that happening but you never know. I also didn’t see things going this far off the rails but here we are. Also Fisch speaking out about he culture of the program isn’t a good look at all for Woodson because his words carry serious weight around the Indiana program.

I know you have some connections, but things can change. I think most would have agreed with you on this a week ago - I think this past week has been completely awful.

I don’t doubt you heard this said recently, but I think the people who have to make the decisions (boosters, Dolson, BoT, etc) are also absorbing how bad this week has been.

Worst home loss to Purdue in 90 years. Leading the country in flagrant fouls and ejections. The repeated lack of answers from Woodson as he makes repeated decisions that fly in the face of logic. Potentially the worst season since before Knight, minus Crean’s teams of baseball players.

I think if you told someone before the season, or even a month ago, that this would be our reality they’d have laughed at you. 

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18 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

The only way that Woodson isn’t the coach is if he decides he can’t do the job and retires

This type of thinking galls me.  Who is in charge here CMW or IU?  

CMW was hired to replace CAM and improve iUBB.  He has failed at this point.  The program remains an embarrassment. If he has any self-respect, he should apologize, acknowledge this fact publicly and announce his solutions to the current problems. Dolson needs to monitor the rest of the season based on what transpires.  If no acceptable improvement, Dolson should give CMW the courtesy of allowing him to retire.  Otherwise, Dolson has a responsibility dare I say a duty to fire CMW and replace him with someone more competent.    

No one is "owed" anything.  

This is a business.

Perfomance is the only thing that matters.

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38 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

The only way that Woodson isn’t the coach is if he decides he can’t do the job and retires. I don’t see that happening but you never know. I also didn’t see things going this far off the rails but here we are. Also Fisch speaking out about he culture of the program isn’t a good look at all for Woodson because his words carry serious weight around the Indiana program.

This is my sentiment…but, like you, didn’t think the season would be going this far off the rails. I fully expect to get our asses handed to us against Illinois. I think it may be more probable (albeit slight) that Buckner and May have a talk with Woodson. 

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