Should IU Fans Be Concerned About Corruption Trial

[CrimsonV]

11 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

And yet Johnson used his “east coast connections” to pull Bryant out from under Boeheim’s nose and land Vonleh out of nowhere.  Crean was always full of excuses — I didn’t buy very many of them.

Johnson was on to Louisville by the time Bryant’s recruitment heated up

[FW_Hoosier]

2 minutes ago, CrimsonV said:

Johnson was on to Louisville by the time Bryant’s recruitment heated up

Good point, you’ve got me there.  Johnson was hired at Louisville in April 2014, and Bryant committed in April 2015.

[rico]

4 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Good point, you’ve got me there.  Johnson was hired at Louisville in April 2014, and Bryant committed in April 2015.

The 'Cuse was also under a lot of scrutiny at the time as well.

[Hoosierhoopster]

30 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

And yet Johnson used his “east coast connections” to pull Bryant out from under Boeheim’s nose and land Vonleh out of nowhere.  Crean was always full of excuses — I didn’t buy very many of them.

I think your impressions are colored by your view of Crean. There is literally zero evidence or reason to believe Crean was involved, in any way, in any dirty recruiting. Absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary, which, again, is the point. If it comes out that IU staff was paying recruits, that would be something else. I don't know if you really believe that, and you're entitled to your beliefs, but it helps to have a basis other than speculation based on worry, that is directly contrary to the several public comments about IU backing off a recruit. And as pointed out, Bryant committed much later.

[Indykev]

12 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

He had the guy that actually paid Bowen on his staff...

You think maybe KJ left because Crean wouldn't play the pay game and he wanted to go where they did.

[rico]

1 minute ago, Indykev said:

You think maybe KJ left because Crean wouldn't play the pay game and he wanted to go where they did.

I imagine there is a lot of truth in that statement.

[OGIUAndy]

1 minute ago, Indykev said:

You think maybe KJ left because Crean wouldn't play the pay game and he wanted to go where they did.

I have no idea if this was a reason, but I do know Louisville doubled his salary. 

[rico]

8 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

I have no idea if this was a reason, but I do know Louisville doubled his salary. 

That says something right there.......

[Billingsley99]

People may not like CTC as a coach but he did not play in the gray area in recruiting. The contact with GH is about as dirty as he got.

[ArchieBall13]

10 hours ago, 5fouls said:

All I gotta say is 'Creighton'?  If that right there doesn't con you things are convince.out of hand, nothing will.  Programs need to be shut down.  The message is not going to get through any other way.

Your second sentence got a little choppy lol, but yea I had the exact same impression if I'm reading your post correctly. If programs like Creighton and Ok State are ponying up this much dough to lure recruits, the whole landscape is just super shady. 

Props to coaches who are able to attract recruits without these incredible advantages offered, but the whole business just needs a slate cleaning. Give the recruits every option to go professionally/earn money off their likeness, etc. after high school (or even during high school if they're able to...just like any other person in the world trying to make a buck), but once they agree to university terms, the only benefit is to offer them free education, training, etc. (which is a great benefit to get ahead in life on it's own). I suspect only a handful of 5 stars will opt for the former and the majority of recruits will still see enough upside to head the college route to improve their game/life-skills, etc. before going out into the real world to earn a living.   

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

And yet Johnson used his “east coast connections” to pull Bryant out from under Boeheim’s nose and land Vonleh out of nowhere.  Crean was always full of excuses — I didn’t buy very many of them.

You were not alone.  There were many Indiana fans on various IU fan boards who thought of Crean as no better than a used car salesman.  No offense to used car salesmen.

 

[IUaic]

1 hour ago, OGIUAndy said:

I have no idea if this was a reason, but I do know Louisville doubled his salary. 

With no dirt on Pitino at the that time (2014) and him not having previous ties to IU, I think I probably would have taken the same route. Double salary and recruiting for Pitino fresh off of his second National Title (later vacated). As an Assistant Coach, that seems like a logical career progression.

On the other hand, maybe Katina Powell was his primary recruiter for Quick Rick. 

[slojoe]

30 minutes ago, IUaic said:

With no dirt on Pitino at the that time (2014) and him not having previous ties to IU, I think I probably would have taken the same route. Double salary and recruiting for Pitino fresh off of his second National Title (later vacated). As an Assistant Coach, that seems like a logical career progression.

On the other hand, maybe Katina Powell was his primary recruiter for Quick Rick. 

I guess my question is was the big increase in pay based in any way on the understanding that he is expected to "be dirty" in recruiting and put at risk his coaching career.

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, ArchieBall13 said:

Your second sentence got a little choppy lol, but yea I had the exact same impression if I'm reading your post correctly. If programs like Creighton and Ok State are ponying up this much dough to lure recruits, the whole landscape is just super shady. 

 

Yeah. When I post on phone instead of computer my error rate goes up blue cow becpmes lonely ggjghk serous non pollitCAL a perry biscut loon.

[FW_Hoosier]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I think your impressions are colored by your view of Crean. There is literally zero evidence or reason to believe Crean was involved, in any way, in any dirty recruiting. Absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary, which, again, is the point.

This is just absolutely not true.  A-Hope, Indiana Elite, LaLumiere, Hanner Perea, Kenny Johnson, Noah Vonleh, multiple references to IU by people targeted in the FBI investigation.  This is all evidence, some of it circumstantial, that Crean’s staff was involved in dirty recruiting (remember, there’s no more “plausible deniability” for NCAA head coaches).  So your statement that “absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary” is 100% false.

The thing is, I really have no problems with Crean.  I probably like him more than most on this board.  And I do believe that he was probably less dirty than a lot of other coaches.  But the point I’m trying to get across is that HE WAS STILL DIRTY.  Was his staff directly paying players in cash?  Maybe not.  Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits?  Absolutely.  It’s literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty.  Absolutely all the evidence we’ve seen since the FBI investigation went public supports that assumption, including, once again, the multiple direct references to IU by individuals involved in the investigation.  It’s not in any way a knock on Crean — it’s the way the system was/is designed to work.

[rico]

5 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This is just absolutely not true.  A-Hope, Indiana Elite, LaLumiere, Hanner Perea, Kenny Johnson, Noah Vonleh, multiple references to IU by people targeted in the FBI investigation.  This is all evidence, some of it circumstantial, that Crean’s staff was involved in dirty recruiting (remember, there’s no more “plausible deniability” for NCAA head coaches).  So your statement that “absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary” is 100% false.

The thing is, I really have no problems with Crean.  I probably like him more than most on this board.  And I do believe that he was probably less dirty than a lot of other coaches.  But the point I’m trying to get across is that HE WAS STILL DIRTY.  Was his staff directly paying players in cash?  Maybe not.  Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits?  Absolutely.  It’s literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty.  Absolutely all the evidence we’ve seen since the FBI investigation went public supports that assumption, including, once again, the multiple direct references to IU by individuals involved in the investigation.  It’s not in any way a knock on Crean — it’s the way the system was/is designed to work.

Good post.

I think I said my story on the last site.  I was a college athlete, on a full ride, albeit at a small school.  I received benefits.  That was in 1985.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This is just absolutely not true.  A-Hope, Indiana Elite, LaLumiere, Hanner Perea, Kenny Johnson, Noah Vonleh, multiple references to IU by people targeted in the FBI investigation.  This is all evidence, some of it circumstantial, that Crean’s staff was involved in dirty recruiting (remember, there’s no more “plausible deniability” for NCAA head coaches).  So your statement that “absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary” is 100% false.

The thing is, I really have no problems with Crean.  I probably like him more than most on this board.  And I do believe that he was probably less dirty than a lot of other coaches.  But the point I’m trying to get across is that HE WAS STILL DIRTY.  Was his staff directly paying players in cash?  Maybe not.  Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits?  Absolutely.  It’s literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty.  Absolutely all the evidence we’ve seen since the FBI investigation went public supports that assumption, including, once again, the multiple direct references to IU by individuals involved in the investigation.  It’s not in any way a knock on Crean — it’s the way the system was/is designed to work.

Well, I think you take what you think -- that "it's literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty" -- and you make it your reality. I completely disagree, and frankly the actual evidence, contrary to what you're saying, is that IU / Crean and staff were NOT dirty.

It's like you're forgetting the context. Crean came in to clean up IU's program after Sampson's (silly phone gate) violations. That's the context. The context is also the multiple, public and well known instances of IU backing off particular recruits because during the recruitments "stuff" came up. In some instances Crean referred to assistant coaches at other schools. Meanwhile, on this board, many complained that IU would "get in on" a big name recruit only to fall off or disappear, and they blamed Crean for that. It's freaking ironic. Now he and staff "must have" been dirty, regardless. Nope.

"Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits. Absolutely."

State your evidence. Really, not your preconception and reasoning by analogy, exactly what evidence do you have that Crean and staff were involved in getting cash to other improper benefits to players/recruits? None.

[IU Scott]

27 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This is just absolutely not true.  A-Hope, Indiana Elite, LaLumiere, Hanner Perea, Kenny Johnson, Noah Vonleh, multiple references to IU by people targeted in the FBI investigation.  This is all evidence, some of it circumstantial, that Crean’s staff was involved in dirty recruiting (remember, there’s no more “plausible deniability” for NCAA head coaches).  So your statement that “absolutely all evidence is directly to the contrary” is 100% false.

The thing is, I really have no problems with Crean.  I probably like him more than most on this board.  And I do believe that he was probably less dirty than a lot of other coaches.  But the point I’m trying to get across is that HE WAS STILL DIRTY.  Was his staff directly paying players in cash?  Maybe not.  Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits?  Absolutely.  It’s literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty.  Absolutely all the evidence we’ve seen since the FBI investigation went public supports that assumption, including, once again, the multiple direct references to IU by individuals involved in the investigation.  It’s not in any way a knock on Crean — it’s the way the system was/is designed to work.

As of right now there has nothing that came out that shows that the Vonleh recruitment was dirty.  With Hanner most of the problem was that his guardian was considered a booster since he had bought some IU stickers 20 years ago.

[milehiiu]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

As of right now there has nothing that came out that shows that the Vonleh recruitment was dirty.  With Hanner most of the problem was that his guardian was considered a booster since he had bought some IU stickers 20 years ago.

Right with you.  Right now, I am not concerned whether or not Crean was dirty. What concerns me, is how deep the FBI investigation may go, and should they uncover anything untoward.  We already saw what the NCAA did against IU, over 20 year old bumper stickers. Hate to think what they could come up with next.

[FW_Hoosier]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Well, I think you take what you think -- that "it's literally impossible to coach at a big time basketball school like IU and not get dirty" -- and you make it your reality. I completely disagree, and frankly the actual evidence, contrary to what you're saying, is that IU / Crean and staff were NOT dirty.

It's like you're forgetting the context. Crean came in to clean up IU's program after Sampson's (silly phone gate) violations. That's the context. The context is also the multiple, public and well known instances of IU backing off particular recruits because during the recruitments "stuff" came up. In some instances Crean referred to assistant coaches at other schools. Meanwhile, on this board, many complained that IU would "get in on" a big name recruit only to fall off or disappear, and they blamed Crean for that. It's freaking ironic. Now he and staff "must have" been dirty, regardless. Nope.

"Was his staff involved in facilitating players getting cash and/or other improper benefits. Absolutely."

State your evidence. Really, not your preconception and reasoning by analogy, exactly what evidence do you have that Crean and staff were involved in getting cash to other improper benefits to players/recruits? None.

Well to start, there’s everything in this article relating to A-Hope and Indiana Elite:

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668

And then there’s the fact that Hanner Perea and Peter Jurkin were actually suspended for receiving improper benefits (and before you say “but bumper stickers!!!” — see above):

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668

And then there was the time that Crean was mentioned as a dirty coach in an anonymous poll of his peers:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/amp/

And there’s the mention of Chuck Martin being involved with Christian Dawkins and ASM Sports:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.indystar.com/amp/369718002 

And if you don’t think that proven cheater Kenny Johnson playing a “crucial role” in landing 5 star one-and-done Noah Vonleh out of nowhere is at least circumstantial evidence that Crean’s staff was getting dirty, I don’t know what to tell you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.indystar.com/amp/7992121

I’m sure you can poke holes in everything I just listed, like we’ve both been trained to do, lol.  But while you can say you’re not convinced by that evidence, you can’t say it doesn’t exist.

[ArchieBall13]

My thought/guess is Crean was likely much lower on the "cheating" scale than the average blue blood coach...but may have allowed certain things while disallowing bigger improprieties which still allowed him to maintain an internal framework of dignity for himself...all the while remaining at least competitive enough to still land recruits at IU at a decent clip. Who knows lol 

[Hoosierhoopster]

45 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Well to start, there’s everything in this article relating to A-Hope and Indiana Elite:

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668

And then there’s the fact that Hanner Perea and Peter Jurkin were actually suspended for receiving improper benefits (and before you say “but bumper stickers!!!” — see above):

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668

And then there was the time that Crean was mentioned as a dirty coach in an anonymous poll of his peers:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/amp/

And there’s the mention of Chuck Martin being involved with Christian Dawkins and ASM Sports:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.indystar.com/amp/369718002 

And if you don’t think that proven cheater Kenny Johnson playing a “crucial role” in landing 5 star one-and-done Noah Vonleh out of nowhere is at least circumstantial evidence that Crean’s staff was getting dirty, I don’t know what to tell you.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.indystar.com/amp/7992121

I’m sure you can poke holes in everything I just listed, like we’ve both been trained to do, lol.  But while you can say you’re not convinced by that evidence, you can’t say it doesn’t exist.

Hey I don't need to poke holes, none of this reflects IU being involved in anything. Come on now. I get you feel there's reason to be apprehensive, while I'm not, but none of this means anything at this point. Crean mentioned as a dirty coach by his peers. Lol.

[FW_Hoosier]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Hey I don't need to poke holes, none of this reflects IU being involved in anything. Come on now. I get you feel there's reason to be apprehensive, while I'm not, but none of this means anything at this point. Crean mentioned as a dirty coach by his peers. Lol.

Haha, okay.  Pretty weak response here, but you’ve kind of backed yourself into a corner.  I said earlier in this thread that I’m not at all concerned, as IU doesnt appear likely to be implicated in anything major, and even if they were, nothing would be done about it.  But it’s your prerogative if you want to continue to stick your head in the sand about how college basketball works.

[FKIM01]

4 hours ago, Indykev said:

You think maybe KJ left because Crean wouldn't play the pay game and he wanted to go where they did.

I thought this more than once after stuff started coming out.  Kenny likely had a lot more freedom to operate in Louisville.

[5fouls]

I would be very interested in knowing how the fanbases of the schools implicated will react.  Do Creighton fans get all high and mighty and demand changes because their university's image has been stained.  Or, are they secretly okay with it because they feel like they have climbed a long-hard hill to compete in big time athletics and need an extra edge to sustain success.

Looking at it from that view, let's take FW Hoosier's perspective and throw a random number out there like 90% of big time college basketball programs are cheating to some degree, because it's necessary to compete.  As a fan base, are we, IU fans, okay with being in the 90% if it brings success  Or, would we hold steady and demand full compliance even if it meant we would forever more be a 2nd tier program.