IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Ok your posts have been getting personal and offensive. Mile doesn’t appreciate the article. Leave it there. Forgive him he is use to the rivals mentality of personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, IU Scott said: That is fine if team use them but I am talking about a fan perspective and I can enjoy the game without having to know every little detail of the stats. I don't need 25 different stats to tell me why we won a game or why we lost the game because I cant know that by just watching the game. Without even reading the article about the top programs I bet I can come close just off the top of my head who were the programs that were ahead of us. If I got it straight that they had 17 programs ahead of us and 4 in the big ten so here is my stab at this. MSU, UW, OSU, UM UCONN, Villanova, Gonzaga, UVA UNC, Duke, UL, Syracuse Florida, UK Kansas Arizona, UCLA I don't use analytics either to understand why a team won or lost. Why do you keep saying that? That isn't what analytics are designed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Forgive him he is use to the rivals mentality of personal attacks. Who have I attacked personally? This is getting ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, IndyResident16 said: Who have I attacked personally? This is getting ridiculous. it is your tone and this board is more civil than what you are use to over at rivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: I don't use analytics either to understand why a team won or lost. Why do you keep saying that? That isn't what analytics are designed to do. So how close was I on my prediction of the teams ahead of us. Ok I don't care what the computer predicts will happen in the future and if I cared about it then I would take the time to learn it. Why don't we just us robots who is setup by a computer program to play the games so we will know who will win. Why even watch the game if you know what is going to happen because what the stats says will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, IU Scott said: it is your tone and this board is more civil than what you are use to over at rivals. My tone? LOL. I got in an argument. On a message board. The horror. I haven't attacked anybody nor hurled or slighted insults at any poster. That's a civil disagreement in a nutshell. You seem to have a problem with people with differing opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: My tone? LOL. I got in an argument. On a message board. The horror. I haven't attacked anybody nor hurled or slighted insults at any poster. That's a civil disagreement in a nutshell. You seem to have a problem with people with differing opinions. You are the one who can't understand someone having a different opinion than yours about analytics. You act like just because we don't use them we are just missing out or that we don't understand the game as well. You can't understand that we can still enjoy the game and know the game quit well without using analytics. Maybe you arguing with Pfaugh or what ever his handle is now got you a little jaded on how to discuss a topic with some civility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: So how close was I on my prediction of the teams ahead of us. Ok I don't care what the computer predicts will happen in the future and if I cared about it then I would take the time to learn it. Why don't we just us robots who is setup by a computer program to play the games so we will know who will win. Why even watch the game if you know what is going to happen because what the stats says will happen. You aren't being serious right now? You said you're a Reds fan, correct? As am I, probably a little too unhealthy as I watch close to 130 Reds games a year start to finish. How many times have you seen a ball hit up the middle only to see a Reds fielder or an opposing player playing directly behind the bag and make a routine out to first? Era's prior that's a base hit 9/10 times. Fielders aren't playing up the middle like that on a whim or by happen chance. There's steady data complied over multiple at-bats that shows players tendencies and where they hit the ball. Now I understand that may not be interesting to you, but it interests me. It's simply a matter of opinion. But to call them useless isn't accurate as every manager in baseball uses some sort of analytics or advanced stats in lineups, defensive shifts, pitching match-ups, pinch-hitting scenarios, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 21 minutes ago, IU Scott said: You are the one who can't understand someone having a different opinion than yours about analytics. You act like just because we don't use them we are just missing out or that we don't understand the game as well. You can't understand that we can still enjoy the game and know the game quit well without using analytics. Maybe you arguing with Pfaugh or what ever his handle is now got you a little jaded on how to discuss a topic with some civility. You're the one calling analytics useless. I'm not. I don't care whether or not you enjoy analytics or not. How you enjoy the game is your prerogative and I've never stated otherwise. Calling analytics "useless" and "for computer nerds who have never picked up a basketball" is jaded. They're useless to you because you don't understand them or what they are designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: You aren't being serious right now? You said you're a Reds fan, correct? As am I, probably a little too unhealthy as I watch close to 130 Reds games a year start to finish. How many times have you seen a ball hit up the middle only to see a Reds fielder or an opposing player playing directly behind the bag and make a routine out to first? Era's prior that's a base hit 9/10 times. Fielders aren't playing up the middle like that on a whim or by happen chance. There's steady data complied over multiple at-bats that shows players tendencies and where they hit the ball. Now I understand that may not be interesting to you, but it interests me. It's simply a matter of opinion. But to call them useless isn't accurate as every manager in baseball uses some sort of analytics or advanced stats in lineups, defensive shifts, pitching match-ups, pinch-hitting scenarios, etc, etc. I hate the shift because I have seen way to many ground balls or line drives go right where the short stop or second baseman should have been. I bet there are more hits because of shifts than outs made because of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: You're the one calling analytics useless. I'm not. I don't care whether or not you enjoy analytics or not. How you enjoy the game is your prerogative and I've never stated otherwise. Calling analytics "useless" and "for computer nerds who have never picked up a basketball" is jaded. They're useless to you because you don't understand them or what they are designed for. that is what I am talking about is what I am talking about when you say I think they are useless because I just don't understand them. That is not true because if I wanted to know about them I would do my research but I don't care about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I hate the shift because I have seen way to many ground balls or line drives go right where the short stop or second baseman should have been. I bet there are more hits because of shifts than outs made because of them. And you would be absolutely incorrect. Your untrained eye, as another poster eluded prior, allows for anomalies. A lefthanded hitter who sprays the ball to the right side of the infield 85% of the time that happens to take a pitch the other way through the shift is an anomaly. Again, this is why analytics are much more accurate than armchair coaches. Anomalies seem to stick out more than a trend. If you had an affinity for analytics, let alone studied them, you would understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: I bet there are more hits because of shifts than outs made because of them. And I bet you're wrong, Scott. You didn't even read the article, yet you're trying to make a point on it? Seriously? And for my money, IndyResident16 and Zlinedavid have both tried to explain it in terms we old sports crumudgeons can understand (and I appreciate that) but you continue to argue on the point of an article you haven't read. It took me a couple of passes, but I think I grasp what KenPom is stating, and I agree with it. Lighten up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: And I bet you're wrong, Scott. You didn't even read the article, yet you're trying to make a point on it? Seriously? And for my money, IndyResident16 and Zlinedavid have both tried to explain it in terms we old sports crumudgeons can understand (and I appreciate that) but you continue to argue on the point of an article you haven't read. It took me a couple of passes, but I think I grasp what KenPom is stating, and I agree with it. Lighten up... He's 100% wrong. Why do you think managers continue to incorporate defensive shifts the way they do? Because numbers and data don't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, IUFLA said: And I bet you're wrong, Scott. You didn't even read the article, yet you're trying to make a point on it? Seriously? And for my money, IndyResident16 and Zlinedavid have both tried to explain it in terms we old sports crumudgeons can understand (and I appreciate that) but you continue to argue on the point of an article you haven't read. It took me a couple of passes, but I think I grasp what KenPom is stating, and I agree with it. Lighten up... Again I predicted who I thought were the program who were ahead of us without reading the article. I would guess I was pretty accurate on my selections because Indy Resident has not answered my question about how well I did. As for the shift I remember 4 hits against the Cubs that should have been outs if they would have been where the shortstop or second baseman should be playing. Two was against a right handed batter with the second baseman was on the right side of second base but the short stop was pulled way over into the hole, Both were routine ground balls to where the short stop should have been but no defender was even close to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I don't want to be involved in the folks going back and forth at each other. To quote the great Crash Davis the difference between being a .250 hitter vs .300 hitter is 1 extra hit per week. 25 hits in 500 at bats. Now I have zero statistical data to back this up but watching the shifts put on Schwarber and Rizzo have certainly caused each of them at least one hit per week. Now is it the shifts that is causing those hits to be groundouts or is the pitcher making adjustments or pitches to make that the "more than" likely end result. I don't know. Both have to be accounted for. For the record and just my 2 cents. Data in any and all forms whether sports or just life has to be used. I'm a believer in numbers/tendencies,etc....but every once in awhile I don't mind a good old fashioned gut call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: He's 100% wrong. Why do you think managers continue to incorporate defensive shifts the way they do? Because numbers and data don't lie. Oh, I get it...I'm a Herm Edwards "you play to win the game" type, and if through analytics I can gain an advantage toward winning, I'm doing it. I know back in the day, a lot of managers went "by their gut" (and some of them had a lot to go on 😁) but you play the percentages, you'll come out ahead...just like the point someone made about Vegas...it doesn't have to create a huge advantage, but enough to turn a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 21 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Again I predicted who I thought were the program who were ahead of us without reading the article. I would guess I was pretty accurate on my selections because Indy Resident has not answered my question about how well I did. As for the shift I remember 4 hits against the Cubs that should have been outs if they would have been where the shortstop or second baseman should be playing. Two was against a right handed batter with the second baseman was on the right side of second base but the short stop was pulled way over into the hole, Both were routine ground balls to where the short stop should have been but no defender was even close to it. That's 4 hits in thousands of at-bats in a MLB season. Anomalies are what they are called. I bet you can't remember 90% of the free throws that an 85% FT shooter makes in a year, but I bet you can remember the ones he misses, especially at an important time of the game. Again, anomalies. Numbers and data don't lie. A lefthanded hitter who sprays the ball to the right side of the infield 85% of the time is going to hit right into the shift more times than not. There's data that 100% supports this that trumps your untrained eye. This really shouldn't be a discussion anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Again I predicted who I thought were the program who were ahead of us without reading the article. I would guess I was pretty accurate on my selections because Indy Resident has not answered my question about how well I did. As for the shift I remember 4 hits against the Cubs that should have been outs if they would have been where the shortstop or second baseman should be playing. Two was against a right handed batter with the second baseman was on the right side of second base but the short stop was pulled way over into the hole, Both were routine ground balls to where the short stop should have been but no defender was even close to it. Without reading the article you don't even understand what you're predicting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I am one that relied on stats as a coach to help game plan. Coaching to me was also a lot of gut feeling too which I know goes against the numbers sometimes. I do have a request for those that are analytical. Is it better to foul when you are.up 3 with under 10 seconds to play? I foul 100% of the time, I have never lost a game because of it. As an assistant I had coaches that would not foul and we have lost 4 times. I would love to see the numbers. Also what HSN thinks, To Foul or not to foul that is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Oh, I get it...I'm a Herm Edwards "you play to win the game" type, and if through analytics I can gain an advantage toward winning, I'm doing it. I know back in the day, a lot of managers went "by their gut" (and some of them had a lot to go on 😁) but you play the percentages, you'll come out ahead...just like the point someone made about Vegas...it doesn't have to create a huge advantage, but enough to turn a profit. I'll never forget when Lou Piniella out of the blue early in his Cubs days told the media this before a game. I'm paraphrasing but he said we're a numbers team guys. We'll do what the numbers say. Each and every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Last night in the Reds game there were guys on 1st and 2nd and their leadoff man Turner was up to bat and he is very fast. The announcers were commenting about how far Votto was off of first and they said even with a routine ground ball Votto would have a hard time getting to first base before the runner got there. also the other two were getting huge secondary leads so with a ground ball it was going to be hard to get any outs. So how would that shift really helped at all but the kid hit a homerun anyways so it didn't matter. When I really hate the shift is when someone is on first and their is a shift where there are 3 on one side of second base and on a ground ball it is so hard to turn the double play because who ever is covering second is not in position to turn the double play. I understand it more when no one is on and you have power hitter who normally pulls the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Last night in the Reds game there were guys on 1st and 2nd and their leadoff man Turner was up to bat and he is very fast. The announcers were commenting about how far Votto was off of first and they said even with a routine ground ball Votto would have a hard time getting to first base before the runner got there. also the other two were getting huge secondary leads so with a ground ball it was going to be hard to get any outs. So how would that shift really helped at all but the kid hit a homerun anyways so it didn't matter. When I really hate the shift is when someone is on first and their is a shift where there are 3 on one side of second base and on a ground ball it is so hard to turn the double play because who ever is covering second is not in position to turn the double play. I understand it more when no one is on and you have power hitter who normally pulls the ball. There was also two outs in the inning so a double play wasn't in play..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, IndyResident16 said: There was also two outs in the inning so a double play wasn't in play..... I know that I was talking about separate things things. The game last night I was talking about was 2 outs but stating that how the defense was set up it would have been hard to get an out with a ground ball. Also I think the use of analytics has hurt pitching the last few years because of how managers are using their bullpens and their over usage of them. Why not train the starting pitchers to go longer into games instead of thinking that using 5 relievers is the better route. Here is a stat for you that relievers ERA has gone up each year for the last 6 years and that is due to over use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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