Rural Indiana HS's financial woes...

[rico]

I didn't know where to put this since it has been talked about in both Indiana HS football and basketball threads so I thought I would put it here.  There is a lot brewing in my neck of the woods concerning small schools and their financial situations.  Three in a particular are Churubusco, Tippecanoe Valley, and Whitko.  All with declining enrollment and money issues.  Consolidation very well might be in the future for these schools, basically getting assimilated by neighboring bigger schools.  It would change the athletics dramatically if such consolidations/assimilations were to happen and the rumor mill is rampant around here.  

Here is one such article and I am sure I can find others...this one is a tad dated.

https://www.journalgazette.net/news/local/schools/20171206/churubusco-schools-seeking-tax-increase

 

[Steubenhoosier]

Hamilton just passed a referendum in this last election to raise taxes as a means of saving the local schools.

[Drroogh]

I remember when Jackson twp and Liberty twp consolidated with Chesterton decades ago. Seemed to work out alright!

[rico]

When small towns lose their schools they tend to dry up...don't know what the answer is.

[5fouls]

18 hours ago, rico said:

When small towns lose their schools they tend to dry up...don't know what the answer is.

Correct.  A small town needs it's school.  Few parents want to send their children to a school 15-20 miles away from home, often in the opposite direction of where they work..  

[5fouls]

Silver Creek is currently part of a school district with two smaller schools, Henryville (2A) and Borden (1A).  The district is in the process of 'divorcing' due to infighting among schools that has been going on forever.  About 25 years ago the board voted to consolidate, but those board members were subsequently voted out and the new board at that time overturned that decision.  Things remained fairly civil for 20 years or so, but in the last 5 years, things have started to get ugly again.  Silver Creek needs massive renovations to correct serious overcrowding issues, but a tax referendum vote to finance the renovations failed.  Once that failed, the divide among the communities has blown wide open.  With the failure of the referendum, the remaining choices seemed to be consolidation or separation, and the board voted for separation.

For what is believed to be the first time in history, the State Board of Education approved the petition to separate.  It now must go to the voters in May.   

https://www.wdrb.com/news/state-board-clears-way-for-public-vote-on-splitting-west/article_c5466086-00b2-11ea-a248-8fbde41d1953.html

[rico]

@5fouls

Interesting story.  The same thing is in the works with Whitko which affects 4 communities.  But there is a little more to it.  The school crosses county lines.  Two towns are in Whitley County and two are in Kosciusko County that feed Whitko.  All I know is that I don't want my taxes to go up.

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, rico said:

@5fouls

Interesting story.  The same thing is in the works with Whitko which affects 4 communities.  But there is a little more to it.  The school crosses county lines.  Two towns are in Whitley County and two are in Kosciusko County that feed Whitko.  All I know is that I don't want my taxes to go up.

Taxes are where the public needs to weigh the cost/benefit.  That was the big issue with the failed referendum here.  Taxes would have gone up.  The other side of the coin is that with the disrepair of Silver Creek High School (it's really getting bad), Sellersburg will no longer be a community that people will want to move to, and then property values will go down.

Borden has nice facilities for a small school and has room to grow.  The problem with Borden is it is located 15 miles in the wrong direction (away from Louisville, New Albany, Jeffersonville, etc.) and there is only one road that takes you there.  Few people would make it their school of choice when buying a home.

Henryville was growing 10 years ago and was beginning to get a little overcrowded, but then in 2012, both the town and the school were flattened by a tornado.  The school was rebuilt (probably a little too quickly and maybe not the best construction in the world), but the population and student loss after the tornado has not fully returned.  And, when it was rebuilt, it was built to accommodate growth.   So, while they don't have ideal facilities due to the quick rebuild, they are sufficient at this time.   From an access standpoint, Henryville is right off I-65 about 20 miles north of Louisville, and easy to get to.

The building for Silver Creek High, on the other hand, is 60 years old, built in the 1960's to accommodate only 550 students,  but currently has almost 900.    The cafeteria is too small, there are not enough restrooms, not enough lockers, not even enough classrooms.  Some teachers have to move from room to room throughout the day top teach a class when the 'regular' teacher in that room has a period off.

I would gladly have my takes increase so the kids in this community could have a decent school.  My kids will probably be graduated before the benefits are felt, but an improved school building is still vital for the town.

 

 

[rico]

33 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Taxes are where the public needs to weigh the cost/benefit.  That was the big issue with the failed referendum here.  Taxes would have gone up.  The other side of the coin is that with the disrepair of Silver Creek High School (it's really getting bad), Sellersburg will no longer be a community that people will want to move to, and then property values will go down.

Borden has nice facilities for a small school and has room to grow.  The problem with Borden is it is located 15 miles in the wrong direction (away from Louisville, New Albany, Jeffersonville, etc.) and there is only one road that takes you there.  Few people would make it their school of choice when buying a home.

Henryville was growing 10 years ago and was beginning to get a little overcrowded, but then in 2012, both the town and the school were flattened by a tornado.  The school was rebuilt (probably a little too quickly and maybe not the best construction in the world), but the population and student loss after the tornado has not fully returned.  And, when it was rebuilt, it was built to accommodate growth.   So, while they don't have ideal facilities due to the quick rebuild, they are sufficient at this time.   From an access standpoint, Henryville is right off I-65 about 20 miles north of Louisville, and easy to get to.

The building for Silver Creek High, on the other hand, is 60 years old, built in the 1960's to accommodate only 550 students,  but currently has almost 900.    The cafeteria is too small, there are not enough restrooms, not enough lockers, not even enough classrooms.  Some teachers have to move from room to room throughout the day top teach a class when the 'regular' teacher in that room has a period off.

I would gladly have my takes increase so the kids in this community could have a decent school.  My kids will probably be graduated before the benefits are felt, but an improved school building is still vital for the town.

 

 

No knowledge of what all the circumstances were down there.  But I take it you can afford higher taxes?  What about the land owners that can't?  It is a "Catch 22."  If my place of 40 acres was in Sellersburg how much would my property taxes increase due to school building issues?  

Lots of issues to take into account and every school district is different.  

[Steubenhoosier]

This sometimes becomes a cycle that schools can't overcome.

Low enrollment and loss of tax revenue causes school corporations to cut programs. Parents then make the decision to transfer their kids due to lack of options within the now gutted schools. 

Hamilton, as an example, offers very little in the way of technology education, and the foreign language department has been reduced to almost bare bones. Rightfully so, parents are concerned that the lack of a quality education is causing their kids to be at a disadvantage when it comes time to seek financial aid, get admitted into college programs, etc. Parents transfer kids to a larger/more affluent/better equipped school system--in this case Dekalb, to help their kids future. Meanwhile, Hamilton almost is a ghost town.

Love the small town atmosphere, but consolidation really is becoming a necessity for some of these small school districts.

 

 

[5fouls]

There is such a thing as too big as well.  Carmel has an enrollment of over 5,000.  There are few, if any, benefits of being in a graduating class of over 1,250 students.  There has to be hundreds of kids that would like to play a sport, be part of the theater program, or be on the student council, that will never get that chance because the numbers are so overwhelming. 

The sweet spot for school size is probably 750-2,000 students. Big enough to offer a wide variety of opportunities, but not too big that students get left out due to too many kids competing for too few opportunities.  

[rico]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

There is such a thing as too big as well.  Carmel has an enrollment of over 5,000.  There are few, if any, benefits of being in a graduating class of over 1,250 students.  There has to be hundreds of kids that would like to play a sport, be part of the theater program, or be on the student council, that will never get that chance because the numbers are so overwhelming. 

The sweet spot for school size is probably 750-2,000 students. Big enough to offer a wide variety of opportunities, but not too big that students get left out due to too many kids competing for too few opportunities.  

Now that I can absolutely agree with.  And kudos for your wording, it ain't all about sports because there is more to school than that.

But there is a problem brewing in this state...we need to take care of it.

[Seeking6]

Had a similar situation growing up in Illinois. End result...small towns need to pass whatever referendum or tax hike necessary to keep a school in town. When a school leaves a town dries up so quickly. Whatever the tax increase is pennies on the dollar compared to losses on property value, businesses closing, jobs leaving,etc....

 

[rico]

20 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Had a similar situation growing up in Illinois. End result...small towns need to pass whatever referendum or tax hike necessary to keep a school in town. When a school leaves a town dries up so quickly. Whatever the tax increase is pennies on the dollar compared to losses on property value, businesses closing, jobs leaving,etc....

 

When Whitko was formed it "swallowed" up 4 towns that had existing high schools.  South Whitley, Larwill, Pierceton, and Sidney.  South Whitley got the high school a junior high and an elementary school.  Pierceton got a junior high and an elementary.  Sidney and Larwill were both left with an elementary school.  In the mid 80's the school district decided to close the elementary schools in Sidney and Larwill.  Sidney suffered a bad fate.  Growing up it had a small grocery store, a farmer's market, grain elevator, barber shop, hardware store, 2 gas stations, a nice church, and a post office.  It didn't take long after the school closed for things to come to an end.  The only thing left in that town from the "old days" is the farmer's market and the church.  The only new thing that has went in is a volunteer fire department building.  

 

[Seeking6]

2 minutes ago, rico said:

When Whitko was formed it "swallowed" up 4 towns that had existing high schools.  South Whitley, Larwill, Pierceton, and Sidney.  South Whitley got the high school a junior high and an elementary school.  Pierceton got a junior high and an elementary.  Sidney and Larwill were both left with an elementary school.  In the mid 80's the school district decided to close the elementary schools in Sidney and Larwill.  Sidney suffered a bad fate.  Growing up it had a small grocery store, a farmer's market, grain elevator, barber shop, hardware store, 2 gas stations, a nice church, and a post office.  It didn't take long after the school closed for things to come to an end.  The only thing left in that town from the "old days" is the farmer's market and the church.  The only new thing that has went in is a volunteer fire department building.  

 

Yep. Happens all the time. I can tell you to this day in Illinois several small towns/rural areas have zero chance of survival....especially given the bankrupt status of the state. 

[Muddy River]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:10 AM, 5fouls said:

Taxes are where the public needs to weigh the cost/benefit.  That was the big issue with the failed referendum here.  Taxes would have gone up.  The other side of the coin is that with the disrepair of Silver Creek High School (it's really getting bad), Sellersburg will no longer be a community that people will want to move to, and then property values will go down.

Borden has nice facilities for a small school and has room to grow.  The problem with Borden is it is located 15 miles in the wrong direction (away from Louisville, New Albany, Jeffersonville, etc.) and there is only one road that takes you there.  Few people would make it their school of choice when buying a home.

Henryville was growing 10 years ago and was beginning to get a little overcrowded, but then in 2012, both the town and the school were flattened by a tornado.  The school was rebuilt (probably a little too quickly and maybe not the best construction in the world), but the population and student loss after the tornado has not fully returned.  And, when it was rebuilt, it was built to accommodate growth.   So, while they don't have ideal facilities due to the quick rebuild, they are sufficient at this time.   From an access standpoint, Henryville is right off I-65 about 20 miles north of Louisville, and easy to get to.

The building for Silver Creek High, on the other hand, is 60 years old, built in the 1960's to accommodate only 550 students,  but currently has almost 900.    The cafeteria is too small, there are not enough restrooms, not enough lockers, not even enough classrooms.  Some teachers have to move from room to room throughout the day top teach a class when the 'regular' teacher in that room has a period off.

I would gladly have my takes increase so the kids in this community could have a decent school.  My kids will probably be graduated before the benefits are felt, but an improved school building is still vital for the town.

 

 

In this particular instance, I don't think it was killed simply because taxes would go up.  It was voted down in large part because the division of the spoils so to speak was wholly unfair.  Silver creek stood to take 92% of the money raised, Henryville would've gotten 6% and Borden 2%.  There was no way the parents at the other two schools were going to vote for a tax increase that didn't benefit them.  It was doomed from the start.  There are a lot of dirty things in play here too, like Sellersburg annexing outlying subdivisions taking tax base, and eventually students away from the other schools.  This would be interesting to watch it I wasn't in the middle of it.

[5fouls]

24 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

In this particular instance, I don't think it was killed simply because taxes would go up.  It was voted down in large part because the division of the spoils so to speak was wholly unfair.  Silver creek stood to take 92% of the money raised, Henryville would've gotten 6% and Borden 2%.  There was no way the parents at the other two schools were going to vote for a tax increase that didn't benefit them.  It was doomed from the start.  There are a lot of dirty things in play here too, like Sellersburg annexing outlying subdivisions taking tax base, and eventually students away from the other schools.  This would be interesting to watch it I wasn't in the middle of it.

I'll take exception to the word 'unfair'.  There is one building in the district that is decrepit.  And, that is Silver Creek High School.  Other than HVAC improvements, Borden really needs nothing.  And, as mentioned, while the construction after the tornado may not have been the best, the school buildings in Henryville are still only 7 years old.  

As far as the annexation of subdivisions, those subdivisions are 2-3 miles from the Silver Creek Campus and 12-15 miles from the Borden Campus.  And, they were not annexed taking those kids away from Borden and Henryville in mind.  They were to enhance the tax base for the town, which needed it.  There was no thought of splitting the corp when those were annexed.  And, those kids still have school choice.  It's just  hard to sell a parent on sending a child 12-15 miles in the wrong direction to Borden (away from Louisville/Jeff/New Albany) when Silver Creek is only 2 miles in the right direction. 

[rico]

21 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll take exception to the word 'unfair'.  There is one building in the district that is decrepit.  And, that is Silver Creek High School.  Other than HVAC improvements, Borden really needs nothing.  And, as mentioned, while the construction after the tornado may not have been the best, the school buildings in Henryville are still only 7 years old.  

As far as the annexation of subdivisions, those subdivisions are 2-3 miles from the Silver Creek Campus and 12-15 miles from the Borden Campus.  And, they were not annexed taking those kids away from Borden and Henryville in mind.  They were to enhance the tax base for the town, which needed it.  There was no thought of splitting the corp when those were annexed.  And, those kids still have school choice.  It's just  hard to sell a parent on sending a child 12-15 miles in the wrong direction to Borden (away from Louisville/Jeff/New Albany) when Silver Creek is only 2 miles in the right direction. 

I alluded to this earlier.  What works for some doesn't always work for others.  A lot of bias gets into these type of discussions.  That is why I asked you about my farm.  And how it would be taxed.  Geez, where I live tillable acres go for $10,000+ an acre.  

Lots of issues for sure.

[Muddy River]

6 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll take exception to the word 'unfair'.  There is one building in the district that is decrepit.  And, that is Silver Creek High School.  Other than HVAC improvements, Borden really needs nothing.  And, as mentioned, while the construction after the tornado may not have been the best, the school buildings in Henryville are still only 7 years old.  

As far as the annexation of subdivisions, those subdivisions are 2-3 miles from the Silver Creek Campus and 12-15 miles from the Borden Campus.  And, they were not annexed taking those kids away from Borden and Henryville in mind.  They were to enhance the tax base for the town, which needed it.  There was no thought of splitting the corp when those were annexed.  And, those kids still have school choice.  It's just  hard to sell a parent on sending a child 12-15 miles in the wrong direction to Borden (away from Louisville/Jeff/New Albany) when Silver Creek is only 2 miles in the right direction. 

I'm not trying to strike a nerve here, but you can't seriously expect parents at two other schools to voluntarily submit to tax increases that do not benefit them.  The way that referendum was put together, the only people who were going to vote for it were parents of kids at Silver Creek.  Neither of the other two schools were going along, and no property  owner without school age kids was going along.  It was doomed from the start and was destined to divide the community.   I'm not arguing that Silver Creek is in disrepair, but raise taxes in Sellersburg and keep 100% of the money.  As for Borden, it may not need much, but it doesn't have much either; no football program, no drama department etc.  And, for the record, Fuzzy Zoeller's Covered Bridge neighborhood (a fine tax base to say the least) is as close to Borden as it is to Silver Creek, and was annexed a couple of years ago against the residents wishes.   And while those kids do still have school choice for now, it does not include transportation.  I'm a relative new comer to the area, and I can sense a lot of simmering animosity among the long time residents, but that tax referendum was nothing more than a hand grenade.

Oh, I also have a friend who grew up in Borden when they were the Berries.  Her daughter transferred to Silver Creek in the 80's because Silver Creek had a better Track (I believe) program.  To this day, there are long time residents of Borden, people she grew up with, that won't speak to her because she allowed it.  Welcome to Hickory High!!!

[5fouls]

Agree.  These tax referendums do tend to hit farmers more than others.  But, the greater population does not own a farm.  Difficult situation for sure.

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I'm not trying to strike a nerve here, but you can't seriously expect parents at two other schools to voluntarily submit to tax increases that do not benefit them.  The way that referendum was put together, the only people who were going to vote for it were parents of kids at Silver Creek.  Neither of the other two schools were going along, and no property  owner without school age kids was going along.  It was doomed from the start and was destined to divide the community.   I'm not arguing that Silver Creek is in disrepair, but raise taxes in Sellersburg and keep 100% of the money.  As for Borden, it may not need much, but it doesn't have much either; no football program, no drama department etc.  And, for the record, Fuzzy Zoeller's Covered Bridge neighborhood (a fine tax base to say the least) is as close to Borden as it is to Silver Creek, and was annexed a couple of years ago against the residents wishes.   And while those kids do still have school choice for now, it does not include transportation.  I'm a relative new comer to the area, and I can sense a lot of simmering animosity among the long time residents, but that tax referendum was nothing more than a hand grenade.

Oh, I also have a friend who grew up in Borden when they were the Berries.  Her daughter transferred to Silver Creek in the 80's because Silver Creek had a better Track (I believe) program.  To this day, there are long time residents of Borden, people she grew up with, that won't speak to her because she allowed it.  Welcome to Hickory High!!!

Covered Bridge is 3 miles from Silver Creek High and 12 from Borden High.  Not the same distance at all.  It has always been Silver Creek.  Yorktown, just down the road has bus service for both schools

 

[rico]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Agree.  These tax referendums do tend to hit farmers more than others.  But, the greater population does not own a farm.  Difficult situation for sure.

Thank you...my point all along.  My land is what "hurts" me.  The farmers take a huge hit and they are rolling the dice the way it is with their crops.  Does the school system give a damn about that?  Mine here sure as hell doesn't.  

It is difficult looking at the overall scheme.

[SteveS]

My wife is a teacher, so we vote for all the education mill levies that get to the ballot. Unfortunately, most don’t pass. My attitude at this point is (and I’m not trying to get political) that the US Department of Education should be dissolved and all the billions of dollars they waste should be given to the actual schools. Oddly enough, this is not a popular opinion at the annual Christmas (sorry, holiday) parties.

[5fouls]

5 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I'm not trying to strike a nerve here, but you can't seriously expect parents at two other schools to voluntarily submit to tax increases that do not benefit them.  The way that referendum was put together, the only people who were going to vote for it were parents of kids at Silver Creek.  Neither of the other two schools were going along, and no property  owner without school age kids was going along.  It was doomed from the start and was destined to divide the community.   I'm not arguing that Silver Creek is in disrepair, but raise taxes in Sellersburg and keep 100% of the money.  As for Borden, it may not need much, but it doesn't have much either; no football program, no drama department etc.  And, for the record, Fuzzy Zoeller's Covered Bridge neighborhood (a fine tax base to say the least) is as close to Borden as it is to Silver Creek, and was annexed a couple of years ago against the residents wishes.   And while those kids do still have school choice for now, it does not include transportation.  I'm a relative new comer to the area, and I can sense a lot of simmering animosity among the long time residents, but that tax referendum was nothing more than a hand grenade.

Oh, I also have a friend who grew up in Borden when they were the Berries.  Her daughter transferred to Silver Creek in the 80's because Silver Creek had a better Track (I believe) program.  To this day, there are long time residents of Borden, people she grew up with, that won't speak to her because she allowed it.  Welcome to Hickory High!!!

I'm actually surprised that the state board of education passed the request to dissolve the school corp.  I felt for sure they would press for measures to consolidate, something that very few in any of the communities want.  If the upcoming vote for separation does not pass, that could very well be the direction this heads next.  

[Muddy River]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I'm actually surprised that the state board of education passed the request to dissolve the school corp.  I felt for sure they would press for measures to consolidate, something that very few in any of the communities want.  If the upcoming vote for separation does not pass, that could very well be the direction this heads next.  

As I mentioned earlier, i am mostly an outsider here, but my feeling all along was that consolidation was the goal of the tax referendum.  A plan I'm not entirely against.   Let the communities keep the elementary and middle schools and put the new High School somewhere up around Memphis.  Consolidating would bring a lot more opportunities to the students.  That said, I won't have a dog in this fight much longer, so none of it really matters to me.