Pack Line D vs new 3 pt line

[NotIThatLives]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I don't know if the pack line hadn't been coined yet, or where the term comes from, but those are just basic man-to-man defensive principles in that diagram. I never heard the term pack line until it became a popular term over the last decade or so, but when I played in college (late-90's) this is how we handled ball screens and it was just called defense. 

The guy defending the screener hedges (basic principle) to slow up the ball handler, the guy defending the ball handler fights over the screen and once he's back he releases the hedger. The other guys help on the roll and then recover once the defender that hedged has recovered to his man. 

That's just called man-to-man defense. 

The links I shared even called it a simplified man to man.  My only qualms are with our bigs hedging 30+ feet from the basket.  Even Smith, Race, and Trayce get beat unnessarily after hedgimg either too far or too long and allow the ball handler to split them and get to the basket as we saw in the Nebraska breakdown, or really just being that far away and hedging and getting so far out of position and becoming a liability because now their man has slipped to the basket and they are scrambling 10 feet away from him.  How often do we see our bigs chasing other bigs down?  Too much.  

I'm all for a solid hedge that prevents a ballhandlers down hill motion allowing the ball defender to get back in position, as Hoopster has said, it's execution.   

Brunk and Davis need to be a little more parked in the paint but credit to opposing coaches for pulling them out.  

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

The links I shared even called it a simplified man to man.  My only qualms are with our bigs hedging 30+ feet from the basket.  Even Smith, Race, and Trayce get beat unnessarily after hedgimg either too far or too long and allow the ball handler to split them and get to the basket as we saw in the Nebraska breakdown, or really just being that far away and hedging and getting so far out of position and becoming a liability because now their man has slipped to the basket and they are scrambling 10 feet away from him.  How often do we see our bigs chasing other bigs down?  Too much.  

I'm all for a solid hedge that prevents a ballhandlers down hill motion allowing the ball defender to get back in position, as Hoopster has said, it's execution.   

Brunk and Davis need to be a little more parked in the paint but credit to opposing coaches for pulling them out.  

I hear what you’re saying, but most coaches don’t operate that way. There’s not usually a “hedge all ball screens...except when” policy. You either fight over and hedge or you go underneath, but at the college level and beyond, most players are too good to go behind the screen. 

[NotIThatLives]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I hear what you’re saying, but most coaches don’t operate that way. There’s not usually a “hedge all ball screens...except when” policy. You either fight over and hedge or you go underneath, but at the college level and beyond, most players are too good to go behind the screen. 

So are bigs just need to get the job done better as well as the guards recovering more quickly.  

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Keeping this simple and getting back to the earlier point, this is about execution and the players, really not the scheme. Those saying we shouldn't be running the pack line are, imo, getting caught up in nomenclature. 

I’m not going to act like I’ve done any in-depth studying on the pack line, because I haven’t, but the little I have read it just sounds mostly like man-to-man defense to me. Every coach has their own set of principles within man-to-man (force baseline or force middle, switch screen or fight through, etc., etc.) and from what I can tell the pack line is just some principles, that are actually pretty normal, within the man-to-man. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

So are bigs just need to get the job done better as well as the guards recovering more quickly.  

That’s my interpretation of what’s happening. Like HH said, more execution that system. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

24 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’m not going to act like I’ve done any in-depth studying on the pack line, because I haven’t, but the little I have read it just sounds mostly like man-to-man defense to me. Every coach has their own set of principles within man-to-man (force baseline or force middle, switch screen or fight through, etc., etc.) and from what I can tell the pack line is just some principles, that are actually pretty normal, within the man-to-man. 

It’s grounded in man to man, but is supposed to “pack” to close lanes, which has some zone ideas. Part of the problem with talking about “pack line” imo is there isn’t some clear statement or diagram of pack line (from what I know), it’s a defensive scheme structured how the coach uses it, as you say, in man to man principles -- the 'pack' comes from the goal of keeping everyone except the player guarding the ball inside 16 feet from the rim. Think I posted this above or elsewhere, but Neb came in and spread us out to the wings leaving the driving lanes wide open, they exploited it with our bigs playing on top. That needs to be addressed.

Edit -- I went and pulled up a couple articles on pack line (may be duplicated in what was linked above, too lazy to check, lol), to see how they described it. One noted it's also called a "sagging man-to-man", because the players don't have the benefit of denying the pass on the perimeter. That seems as good a description as any to me -- here's the link, siap -- https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/

 

[Zlinedavid]

41 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’m not going to act like I’ve done any in-depth studying on the pack line, because I haven’t, but the little I have read it just sounds mostly like man-to-man defense to me. Every coach has their own set of principles within man-to-man (force baseline or force middle, switch screen or fight through, etc., etc.) and from what I can tell the pack line is just some principles, that are actually pretty normal, within the man-to-man. 

It would be like buying a fully loaded, every single option available Honda Accord, or buying an Acura TL.  What are the differences? When you get down to it....not really all that much.  Mechanically, they're the same car.  The TL might have a few extra gadgets that the Accord can't get, but the Accord is a little cheaper.  Really, it boils down to the name and a few little nuances here and there.

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It’s grounded in man to man, but is supposed to “pack” to close lanes, which has some zone ideas. Part of the problem with talking about “pack line” imo is there isn’t some clear statement or diagram of pack line (from what I know), it’s a defensive scheme structured how the coach uses it, as you say, in man to man principles -- the 'pack' comes from the goal of keeping everyone except the player guarding the ball inside 16 feet from the rim. Think I posted this above or elsewhere, but Neb came in and spread us out to the wings leaving the driving lanes wide open, they exploited it with our bigs playing on top. That needs to be addressed.

Edit -- I went and pulled up a couple articles on pack line (may be duplicated in what was linked above, too lazy to check, lol), to see how they described it. One noted it's also called a "sagging man-to-man", because the players don't have the benefit of denying the pass on the perimeter. That seems as good a description as any to me -- here's the link, siap -- https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/

 

And would explain some of the struggles the Crean guys would have had transitioning from the gambling for deflections that CTC so desperately wanted.  

[Fiveoutofsix]

4 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

And would explain some of the struggles the Crean guys would have had transitioning from the gambling for deflections that CTC so desperately wanted.  

Coach Knight didn't beleive in the denial on the perimeter as well, although he would teach to make the entry pass difficult.  He didnt want guus out of position.