Pack Line D vs new 3 pt line

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

ADegenerate had a great post last year about Archie's system and why it is so archaic and destined to fail in March.  Also some good statistics on why teams like Villanova, UM, UK, etc consistently make deep runs.  Hopefully he'll chime in if he's reading.

I'm not going to pretend to be an analytics guy. I understand them but I don't live by them. With that said, Jay Wright has an impressive resume (3 Final Fours & 2 titles) and is a great coach, but he's also either missed the tournament or been knocked out before the Sweet Sixteen 12 times while at Villanova. When he has elite talent he goes deep in the tournament, when he doesn't have elite talent he is usually is an early out. I don't think it's really anything about his system being better than someone else's.

Tony Bennett has owned the ACC and won a National Title with the pack line. Archie took Dayton to the Elite 8 with the pack line. While Sean Miller hasn't broken through to the Final Four, he's been to 4 Elite 8's and 3 other Sweet Sixteen's. Are we really saying the difference between an Elite 8 and a Final Four, which is one game, is because the system doesn't work?

I tend to lean with HH on this one, it's more about execution of the system, and of course the players you're bringing into the system. 

[Zlinedavid]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

While Sean Miller hasn't broken through to the Final Four, he's been to 4 Elite 8's and 3 other Sweet Sixteen's. Are we really saying the difference between an Elite 8 and a Final Four, which is one game, is because the system doesn't work?

Who did Miller lose two of those four E8 games to?

I'll save everyone the trouble....Bo Ryan. 

And Bo Ryan's defensive philosophy was very similar to the pack-line in terms of execution, if not an actual variant of it.

[Brass Cannon]

So the whole premise of this thread is that the new 3 pt line this year will impact the pack line and people keep citing success from before the change of the 3 pt line

[Kdug]

I disagree with the thought that moving the 3 point line back makes it harder for pack line defenses to defend. Teams have had the option of shooting deeper 3s in past seasons, the reason they don’t is that they are lower percentage shots. If anything, moving the 3 point shot back reduce the effectiveness of the 3 point shot. If you look at the 3 point % of all ncaa teams this year, it would be the lowest 3 point % as a whole since the 3 point line was introduced.

[dbmhoosier]

My biggest complaint about Archie much more than the pack line is his failure to bring in shooters that can produce.  We had one FF team in the past 28 years and they always had 2 and usually 3 snipers on the court at all times.  That wasn't a coincidence. 

We'll be going into year 4 with hardly any shooters and that's 100% on Archie.  We're losing Devonte and only have Leal coming in who can shoot and he's not even top 100.  Kelvin Sampson inherited a roster with only 1 big man in DJ White yet he immediately went out and got Stemler and Mike White to fill the holes until the reinforcements arrived.  Archie has left the holes completely unfilled.

[Hoosierhoopster]

7 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

My biggest complaint about Archie much more than the pack line is his failure to bring in shooters that can produce.  We had one FF team in the past 28 years and they always had 2 and usually 3 snipers on the court at all times.  That wasn't a coincidence. 

We'll be going into year 4 with hardly any shooters and that's 100% on Archie.  We're losing Devonte and only have Leal coming in who can shoot and he's not even top 100.  Kelvin Sampson inherited a roster with only 1 big man in DJ White yet he immediately went out and got Stemler and Mike White to fill the holes until the reinforcements arrived.  Archie has left the holes completely unfilled.

Ok a little irony here, lol. You hate Crean, he prioritized shooting and had all kinds of shooters, you hated his D. Cam’s D usually is great, but your biggest complaint is perceived lack of recruiting of shooters. 

Leaving aside we’re at the beginning of his tenure and he’s had a number of recruits that have chosen other schools, and that we have 3 guys shooting north of 37 percent atm, i see some irony here 

[OGIUAndy]

6 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

My biggest complaint about Archie much more than the pack line is his failure to bring in shooters that can produce.  We had one FF team in the past 28 years and they always had 2 and usually 3 snipers on the court at all times.  That wasn't a coincidence. 

We'll be going into year 4 with hardly any shooters and that's 100% on Archie.  We're losing Devonte and only have Leal coming in who can shoot and he's not even top 100.  Kelvin Sampson inherited a roster with only 1 big man in DJ White yet he immediately went out and got Stemler and Mike White to fill the holes until the reinforcements arrived.  Archie has left the holes completely unfilled.

They are 10-1 with a lot of season to go. 

[Fiveoutofsix]

17 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

My biggest complaint about Archie much more than the pack line is his failure to bring in shooters that can produce.  We had one FF team in the past 28 years and they always had 2 and usually 3 snipers on the court at all times.  That wasn't a coincidence. 

We'll be going into year 4 with hardly any shooters and that's 100% on Archie.  We're losing Devonte and only have Leal coming in who can shoot and he's not even top 100.  Kelvin Sampson inherited a roster with only 1 big man in DJ White yet he immediately went out and got Stemler and Mike White to fill the holes until the reinforcements arrived.  Archie has left the holes completely unfilled.

I think he addressed that in this upcoming class and it wasnt for a lack of trying in the past.  By the way DJ Carton would of been a nice addition and Lester Q.

[bluegrassIU]

5 hours ago, BGleas said:

I tend to lean with HH on this one,.....

Well, that was a guaranteed like from HH. Quit feeding his ego. It is out of control!

[bluegrassIU]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

So the whole premise of this thread is that the new 3 pt line this year will impact the pack line and people keep citing success from before the change of the 3 pt line

That's what us basketball geeks do.  Hahahaha

[HoosierDom]

36 minutes ago, Kdug said:

I disagree with the thought that moving the 3 point line back makes it harder for pack line defenses to defend. Teams have had the option of shooting deeper 3s in past seasons, the reason they don’t is that they are lower percentage shots. If anything, moving the 3 point shot back reduce the effectiveness of the 3 point shot. If you look at the 3 point % of all ncaa teams this year, it would be the lowest 3 point % as a whole since the 3 point line was introduced.

I agree completely. I think this makes the 3 pointer slightly tougher to make: thus the game is slightly more interior related. Seems good for us.

[dbmhoosier]

52 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Ok a little irony here, lol. You hate Crean, he prioritized shooting and had all kinds of shooters, you hated his D. Cam’s D usually is great, but your biggest complaint is perceived lack of recruiting of shooters. 

Leaving aside we’re at the beginning of his tenure and he’s had a number of recruits that have chosen other schools, and that we have 3 guys shooting north of 37 percent atm, i see some irony here 

I don't see any irony.  Crean's biggest problem was roster management.  I don't know if I've ever seen a D1 coach as bad as that aspect as Tom Crean.  Thankfully Archie seems 100x better in that regard.

[dgambill]

7 hours ago, hoosier_exotics said:

I said it earlier,  but im convinced we give up open looks due to our on ball D up top.  Our guards are getting abused and it puts everyone else in a bad spot.  Do you give up the layup, or the open 3? Until Al and Green take it personally and decide to play some good D, we will struggle.

I watched the Oregon vs Michigan game the other day. The Pritchard kid from Oregon absolutely abused Simpson on both ends of the floor.  They couldn't keep him out of the lane, and it ultimately cost them the game.

Elite guard play has always been the key to a NC run in March. Having good bigs are great but in the end multiple guards that shoot and or penetrate and make plays is the ultimate trump card in the tournament. Looking at past champions Virginia, Villanova, UNC, UL, UCONN teams I mean it just goes on and on.

[IowaHoosierFan]

14 hours ago, OGIUAndy said:

They are 10-1 with a lot of season to go. 

while i agree, i don't count the sub 250 teams as any indication oh how good/bad this team is.  We are struggling to stop teams from shooting the 3, which this thread is about.  We let a team who averaged 50 points a game score that in the first half and 3 players go off shooting the 3.  We then allowed a terrible Nebraska team do the same thing and stay in the game by shooting the 3 consistently with open looks.  It may not be the pack-line defense is the problem and more on the players that can't run this defense correctly by closing out on the 3 point shooters.  We leave a lot of wide open 3 point shooters every game.  Eventually, and we have seen it happen, shooters will hit those shots and then get confident and hot and that's when we get in trouble. 

Please correct me if i am wrong here.  But i just don't see us adjust our defense much.  We seen to always run the same defense.  We rarely go to a hard full or 3/4 press or tough in your face man to man defense when we're getting shot out of the building.

[OGIUAndy]

25 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

while i agree, i don't count the sub 250 teams as any indication oh how good/bad this team is.  We are struggling to stop teams from shooting the 3, which this thread is about.  We let a team who averaged 50 points a game score that in the first half and 3 players go off shooting the 3.  We then allowed a terrible Nebraska team do the same thing and stay in the game by shooting the 3 consistently with open looks.  It may not be the pack-line defense is the problem and more on the players that can't run this defense correctly by closing out on the 3 point shooters.  We leave a lot of wide open 3 point shooters every game.  Eventually, and we have seen it happen, shooters will hit those shots and then get confident and hot and that's when we get in trouble. 

Please correct me if i am wrong here.  But i just don't see us adjust our defense much.  We seen to always run the same defense.  We rarely go to a hard full or 3/4 press or tough in your face man to man defense when we're getting shot out of the building.

We’ll see what this team is made of very soon. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

We’ll see what this team is made of very soon. 

We will. 

Only I think we'll see some road losses, that will likely mirror other B1G team road losses.

This season is going to be a dog fight in the B1G, I think for just about every team.

[OGIUAndy]

26 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

We will. 

Only I think we'll see some road losses, that will likely mirror other B1G team road losses.

This season is going to be a dog fight in the B1G, I think for just about every team.

I agree. Playing well at home is super important this year. I don’t see any “easy” wins on the road. 

[5fouls]

20 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

Who did Miller lose two of those four E8 games to?

Bo Ryan.  And, his defensive philosophy was very similar to, if not an actual variant of the pack-line.

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Bo Ryan.  And, his defensive philosophy was very similar to, if not an actual variant of the pack-line.

If a pack line team plays another pack line team, it only counts for the losing team. 😀

[NotIThatLives]

On 12/18/2019 at 1:31 PM, Hoosierhoopster said:

For me this remains more about execution / and players, than the pack line as a system. 

Been busy the last few days and have had you qued up for convo.  I like your whole post but have been wondering.  In a pack line, are the bigs supposed to be hard hedging a ball screen 30 feet from the basket putting themselves way out of position,  especially guys with the recovery speed of Davis and Brunk? 

After reading 2 long websites talking pack line I found this diagram.  I will conclude that what you said personnel is definitely A reason this team is struggling.   Take a look for yourself.   The bottom left diagram.  I think execution can also be blamed because I don't think the bigs should be hedging 30 feet away.  We aren't trying to stop Steph Curry from launching a shot.  

I'll also add that one of the pros of the pack line is to prevent back doors.  Opps.  We didn't get the memo.  

https://www.coachesclipboard.net/BasketballPackLineDefense.html

https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/

[IowaHoosierFan]

13 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Been busy the last few days and have had you qued up for convo.  I like your whole post but have been wondering.  In a pack line, are the bigs supposed to be hard hedging a ball screen 30 feet from the basket putting themselves way out of position,  especially guys with the recovery speed of Davis and Brunk? 

After reading 2 long websites talking pack line I found this diagram.  I will conclude that what you said personnel is definitely A reason this team is struggling.   Take a look for yourself.   The bottom left diagram.  I think execution can also be blamed because I don't think the bigs should be hedging 30 feet away.  We aren't trying to stop Steph Curry from launching a shot.  

I'll also add that one of the pros of the pack line is to prevent back doors.  Opps.  We didn't get the memo.  

https://www.coachesclipboard.net/BasketballPackLineDefense.html

https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/

you mentioned one of the things i have hated for the last couple years.  I have always hated how our big guys are out around the 3 point line hedging on ball handler.  I never understood why they all always end up out that far and it never ends well

[BGleas]

I don't know if the pack line hadn't been coined yet, or where the term comes from, but those are just basic man-to-man defensive principles in that diagram. I never heard the term pack line until it became a popular term over the last decade or so, but when I played in college (late-90's) this is how we handled ball screens and it was just called defense. 

The guy defending the screener hedges (basic principle) to slow up the ball handler, the guy defending the ball handler fights over the screen and once he's back he releases the hedger. The other guys help on the roll and then recover once the defender that hedged has recovered to his man. 

That's just called man-to-man defense. 

[InThePaint]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't know if the pack line hadn't been coined yet, or where the term comes from, but those are just basic man-to-man defensive principles in that diagram. I never heard the term pack line until it became a popular term over the last decade or so, but when I played in college (late-90's) this is how we handled ball screens and it was just called defense. 

The guy defending the screener hedges (basic principle) to slow up the ball handler, the guy defending the ball handler fights over the screen and once he's back he releases the hedger. The other guys help on the roll and then recover once the defender that hedged has recovered to his man. 

That's just called man-to-man defense. 

Correct. In my opinion, the inability to consistently guard the ball and the bigs being so disconnected from their man who is setting the screen have been the biggest issues. The defending big man should basically form an L with the screener, which forces the ball handler to take a dribble or two back. When the bigs are not connected, then they are going to be slow through the whole process which includes all of the rotations. A big thing to watch is how often we get split on ball screens.

I just finished my college career a few years ago (2016). Unless our game plan was changed for different players, a hard hedge was supposed to be used every time. If you can’t execute guarding the ball or a ball screen, then it’s going to cause constant rotations.

.

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, InThePaint said:

Correct. In my opinion, the inability to consistently guard the ball and the bigs being so disconnected from their man who is setting the screen have been the biggest issues. The defending big man should basically form an L with the screener, which forces the ball handler to take a dribble or two back. When the bigs are not connected, then they are going to be slow through the whole process which includes all of the rotations. A big thing to watch is how often we get split on ball screens.

I just finished my college career a few years ago (2016). Unless our game plan was changed for different players, a hard hedge was supposed to be used every time. If you can’t execute guarding the ball or a ball screen, then it’s going to cause constant rotations.

.

Exactly. You have to be able to hedge, force the ball handler to dribble away from the basket, and then recover. The man defending the ball has to fight over top of the screen as fast as he can to release the hedger. The wings have to be able to help and recover as well. Any misstep in that action causes problems across the board. 

But again, that's just basic defensive principles at this level. Also, the principle wasn't for a wing to trade giving up a 3 by helping on the roller, the principle was you guys better execute this, execute it fast and get back to your man, or you're sitting on the bench. 

I played on the wing, and if my man hit a 3 because I was helping on the roller, the response from coach wasn't, "we're playing the pack line, we'll give the 3 as opposed to giving up a paint touch to the roller." The response was, "if you can't recover fast enough, you can take a seat and we'll put in someone who can."

[Hoosierhoopster]

45 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't know if the pack line hadn't been coined yet, or where the term comes from, but those are just basic man-to-man defensive principles in that diagram. I never heard the term pack line until it became a popular term over the last decade or so, but when I played in college (late-90's) this is how we handled ball screens and it was just called defense. 

The guy defending the screener hedges (basic principle) to slow up the ball handler, the guy defending the ball handler fights over the screen and once he's back he releases the hedger. The other guys help on the roll and then recover once the defender that hedged has recovered to his man. 

That's just called man-to-man defense. 

Keeping this simple and getting back to the earlier point, this is about execution and the players, really not the scheme. Those saying we shouldn't be running the pack line are, imo, getting caught up in nomenclature.