rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 17 hours ago, Sark said: While unusual in his delivery, Cosell was always regarded as extremely knowledgeable about the sports he covered. LOL. By who? His contemporaries? The average "Joe" couldn't stand Howard as a commentator sans boxing. Hell, one could say Ali made Cosell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 20 minutes ago, Sark said: No, they weren’t. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiHgvjZm9TqAhULcq0KHVzBAosQFjABegQIChAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnextlevel.finance%2Fespn-remains-quite-profitable-for-disney%2F&usg=AOvVaw0aEvqDC90bGziTGbI1IW7- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-serious-cost-cutting-going-142652796.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Sark said: So he was credited with the high ratings of MNF because no one liked him? Lol People liked football on Monday nights. Marquis game in prime time. People would have watched it without Howie in the booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Sark said: I was just countering the notion that they’ve been losing money. It’s not accurate. Counter all you want...I ain't buying what you are selling. https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/26/the-real-story-behind-espns-wednesday-massacre/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Sark said: Lol.Maybe. But if that is so, why did ABC remove maybe the best, most popular broadcaster from the MNF team, only to see ratings climb? Howard had great ratings chops, which is why he remained a fixture in the booth for so long. I understand that people were intimidated by his intelligence and knowledge beyond football, something that bothers most espn critics, too, but his impact isn’t really up for debate. Despite controversially due to his outspoken honesty, he remained. There’s a reason. He delivered huge ratings. Yeah, there was no cable TV and only 3 networks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sark said: So why did the line up of booth people change while he remained the constant? He delivered ratings, that’s why. "Look at the little monkey type." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sark said: Facts are facts.You're welcome to ignore them, but they’re still facts. https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/26/the-real-story-behind-espns-wednesday-massacre/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Sark said: So why did the line up of booth people change while he remained the constant? He delivered ratings, that’s why. Were you alive when "Monday Night Football" started? Kind of a captive audience for anybody who liked sports. As @rico said, only 3 network channels, and facing the likes of "The Doris Day Show" and the "NBC Monday Night Movie" for ratings, just as pro football was emerging as the dominant sport in America? I really can't imagine the imbecile that tuned in to watch "Monday Night Football" just so they could "see Howard." We tuned in to watch football...not to listen to some overly-educated egomaniac prattle on, his ignorance of the game on full display... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Al Michaels' thoughts on Cosell Is that really how Cosell treated colleagues? Michaels rolls his eyes. "It's not even close!" he says. Cosell, who called Michaels Alfalfa, hasn't spoken to him since before the '85 World Series. He was removed from the ABC booth and replaced by Tim McCarver, partly because of his frosty relationship with Michaels. Says Michaels, "To me, it was the greatest trade in the history of broadcasting." Cosell had warmed things up by baiting Michaels during the 1984 American League playoffs. "Before Game 2, he was casting a belligerent pall over the whole crew," says Michaels. "He babbled on about some strategy that was blatantly wrong, trying to get Jim Palmer and me to agree. We wouldn't. We didn't want him to look like an ignoramus. It was the only time I ever rooted for a game to end fast." Afterward, Cosell confronted Michaels in the press lounge of Royals Stadium. "Michaels, the problem with you is that you never take a stand," he said. "Don't you ever talk to me again until you apologize, you——," ranted Michaels. In the ensuing tirade, Michaels called Cosell, among other things, a "fraud," a "despicable human being" and a "detriment to the entire ABC sports operation." He concluded by saying, "Is that a good enough stand for you, Howard?" Cosell and Michaels represent opposite approaches to sportscasting. Michaels subordinates his strong personality to the team effort, while Cosell subordinates everything to his ego. Cosell's latest venture, a syndicated program called Speaking of Everything, is probably symbolic. He'll comment on everything in the universe. Except for Michaels. "Mr. Cosell has nothing to say about Al Michaels," says the show's producer, Cosell's daughter, Hilary. "Nor will he have anything to say about him in the future." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sark said: I was. It was a spectacle that spawned parties in homes at the beginning of the week, sleepy and unproductive Tuesday mornings, frustrated teachers who complained that some of their students were often tired and without completed homework on Tuesday mornings. It literally changed sports broadcasting, and Cosell was far and away the one person most closely identified with it. And plenty of people tune into to watch the person they claim to hate. How do you think shock jock radio had such a long run? It wasn’t all adoring listeners as research proved that the more outlandish and controversial the host, the higher ratings were generated, even among harsh critics. Like most people in those early days, I watched it for the football and so I could stay up later than usual. But there’s a reason ABC removed maybe the greatest football announcer ever and kept Cosell. He was a ratings monster and a national phenomenon. ABC removed Dick Enberg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: Al Michaels' thoughts on Cosell Is that really how Cosell treated colleagues? Michaels rolls his eyes. "It's not even close!" he says. Cosell, who called Michaels Alfalfa, hasn't spoken to him since before the '85 World Series. He was removed from the ABC booth and replaced by Tim McCarver, partly because of his frosty relationship with Michaels. Says Michaels, "To me, it was the greatest trade in the history of broadcasting." Cosell had warmed things up by baiting Michaels during the 1984 American League playoffs. "Before Game 2, he was casting a belligerent pall over the whole crew," says Michaels. "He babbled on about some strategy that was blatantly wrong, trying to get Jim Palmer and me to agree. We wouldn't. We didn't want him to look like an ignoramus. It was the only time I ever rooted for a game to end fast." Afterward, Cosell confronted Michaels in the press lounge of Royals Stadium. "Michaels, the problem with you is that you never take a stand," he said. "Don't you ever talk to me again until you apologize, you——," ranted Michaels. In the ensuing tirade, Michaels called Cosell, among other things, a "fraud," a "despicable human being" and a "detriment to the entire ABC sports operation." He concluded by saying, "Is that a good enough stand for you, Howard?" Cosell and Michaels represent opposite approaches to sportscasting. Michaels subordinates his strong personality to the team effort, while Cosell subordinates everything to his ego. Cosell's latest venture, a syndicated program called Speaking of Everything, is probably symbolic. He'll comment on everything in the universe. Except for Michaels. "Mr. Cosell has nothing to say about Al Michaels," says the show's producer, Cosell's daughter, Hilary. "Nor will he have anything to say about him in the future." I also remember Chris Econamacki having harsh words towards Cosuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 56 minutes ago, Sark said: Always loved AM. One of the best radio play by play guys in MLB. Listened to him often over the years. Yet Al Michael's is another respected voice that refutes your position on Cosell's "sports knowledge." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sark said: If you read what you linked, you’ll see that AM strongly disliked Cosell because of his over the top ego. I realize you didn’t like HC, as many didn’t, especially those who really didn’t have much experience watching him. Definitely a polarizing figure Oh, I had plenty of "experience" watching him. He was pretty much forced on you if you wanted to watch a sporting event on ABC, be it MNF, baseball, boxing, or the Olympics. In my view, the people who really liked him didn't know much about sports themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Sark said: If you read what you linked, you’ll see that AM strongly disliked Cosell because of his over the top ego. I realize you didn’t like HC, as many didn’t, especially those who really didn’t have much experience watching him. Definitely a polarizing figure This is total crap and not needed. We don’t need or want passive aggressive hostility. You’d be much more successful if you made an attempt to ingratiate yourself to the long time members here. Its actually very well known that Howard was a guy who was widely disliked. And it has literally nothing to do with “experience” watching him. There’s something really off about your ability to analyze. You take a topic that could be fun and respectful, and you urinate all over it. Whether you have any hope of ever figuring it out is within your control and not mine, but I’d call it an upset for that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 As for Howard, to me he had his pluses and minuses. If I’m being honest, his halftime highlights over the great NFL Films footage was phenomenal and a must watch. I definitely don’t think Howard would know what pitch mix John Candelaria had or who the fourth starter for the Indians was. But he was a big figure nonetheless. He wasn’t liked because he was too big for his britches and unbelievably obnoxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 39 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said: As for Howard, to me he had his pluses and minuses. If I’m being honest, his halftime highlights over the great NFL Films footage was phenomenal and a must watch. I definitely don’t think Howard would know what pitch mix John Candelaria had or who the fourth starter for the Indians was. But he was a big figure nonetheless. He wasn’t liked because he was too big for his britches and unbelievably obnoxious. That he was. He and Ali were the perfect foils for each other because they were both full of themselves and it made for entertaining TV, but no question, Cosell could be very obnoxious and at times, it was clear he did n't know any more about what was going on in the field than I did. Not terribly surprising since he was an attorney who became a sportscaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 51 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said: This is total crap and not needed. We don’t need or want passive aggressive hostility. You’d be much more successful if you made an attempt to ingratiate yourself to the long time members here. Its actually very well known that Howard was a guy who was widely disliked. And it has literally nothing to do with “experience” watching him. There’s something really off about your ability to analyze. You take a topic that could be fun and respectful, and you urinate all over it. Whether you have any hope of ever figuring it out is within your control and not mine, but I’d call it an upset for that to happen. I assume I know the poster you are talking to and he decides to find topics that is controversial. He finds a thread that everyone pretty much agree on and he decides to take the opposite view point. I think he does this just to troll posters and get them worked up and probably does not believe what he is posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, Sark said: Interesting. My view was that his intellectual perspective and less than cheerleader persona tended to rub a number of people the wrong way, especially those who were looking for a simpler and easier to understand delivery. Horses for courses, as they say. And what "intellectual perspective" would that be? Need more evidence that Cosell was not that knowledgeable about sports? Shirley Povich again... Of his own contributions to football: "I was the key ingredient to 'Monday Night Football.' " This despite the vivid impressions here that Cosell's more cogent observations in the booth were limited to "poor field position," or "good field position," or "time left on the clock," services that any average third-grader could perform. So, point me toward this "intellectual perspective" that Cosell provided... He was a shill...Just like somebody else I can think of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 33 minutes ago, Sark said: That’s the beauty of opinions. Everyone can have one, they can all be informed, and yet they can differ. By intellectual, I meant his educational and legal training, which translated to both his honest and blunt nature as well as to his vocabulary, which many found off-putting, patronizing and intimidating. He clearly wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, there was tons of animosity and professional jealousy of his success. Again, you’ve seen that phenomenon in talk radio, and the reactions of many are the same. Well, I did ask for you to point me toward an example of Cosell's colossal "knowledge of sports" which you've failed to do... And I don't think anyone who enjoys the competitive nature of sports ever tuned in to hear someone's "vocabulary." To come full circle on this, Cosell is one of the reason that ESPN is the beta-male circus that it is today...Too many talking heads who could never actually compete in sports pontificating as if they know more about the games than they really do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 55 minutes ago, Sark said: Jim Nantz and Gus Johnson You do know both Nantz and Johnson are play by play guys, right? I mean, you do understand the difference between a play by play guy, and a color commentator, right? What each one is there for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted July 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 I have learned two things today from Sark... 1) ESPN is a well oiled machine. 2) Howard Cosell invented American football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 20 minutes ago, rico said: I have learned two things today from Sark... 1) ESPN is a well oiled machine. 2) Howard Cosell invented American football. And he is the smartest guy on this message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Sark said: Wasn’t nearly as familiar with his baseball broadcasts as those tended to be playoff and World Series only. I think many didn’t like him because they believed he talked over their heads and they found that unappealing and patronizing. Even decades later, it’s interesting the feelings his name elicits. I don’t know if it’s what you’re getting at, but you make it sound like only dopes wouldn’t like Howard because they aren’t smart enough to understand him. If that’s your point, I don’t buy that. That’s an incredibly cynical view of people. This is the same America where 60 Minutes was the number one show for like 20 straight years and Mike Wallace was obviously smart. It’s not that Howard was smart—he was—but he came across as a jerk. Like the way Al Michaels responded to him. I was essentially a kid or teen when he was in his prime, so I didn’t have the perspective of an adult in assessing him. But even as a kid, I read a lot, and the media was full of animosity toward Howard. I’m not in the camp of having a strong opinion on him, other than his halftime highlights were brilliant. The NFL Films team would bring out movie level highlights with slow motion where you’d see the laces and the ball spinning on a long toss. Howard would use his voice brilliantly to bring home the drama, momentum swings, etc. “Joe Ferguson dove into the end zone to give the Bills a 14-3 lead at the half. But Bob Griese was not to be denied in the second half. [Voice accelerating] He marched the Dolphins down the field on two long drives and Gary Yepremian hit a 33 yard field goal late as the Dolphins won 20-17.” Much like Brent’s “you’re looking live at the Pontiac Silverdome,” it was iconic. I wish we could still have that because football highlights have never been the same. I wouldn’t go down the path that smart people liked him and dumb people didn’t. It’s a copout IMO and there was more at play. There are plenty of other very bright people in sports that are very well liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 I could not find it on the net. However. I do recall the time when Howard Cosell was voted as both the most hated and liked announcer in sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, milehiiu said: I could not find it on the net. However. I do recall the time when Howard Cosell was voted as both the most hated and liked announcer in sports. I would totally believe that. It makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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