It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IU878176]

4 hours ago, Muddy River said:

I believe John had a conference record of something like 30 and 42 in his first 4 seasons at Michigan.  Would we allow him a 5th year after a start like that?

10 years ago we would not have been happy with a start like that but sadly our expectations have declined since then. That being said, JB’s start was better than what Archie has done. He made the tourney twice (and won a game each time) in those first four years. While his start was not amazing it would be considered wildly successful vs Archie’s start.

One other difference is that JB’s first year at Michigan was his worst conference record (5-13) while Archie’s first year, chock full of the dreaded Creanians, was his best conference record. JB’s trajectory was positive while Archie’s trajectory has been less than optimal. JB’s first 4 year finish in the BT (9,7,7,4) vs Archie (6,9,10,10).
 

[IUFLA]

9 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

While his start was not amazing it would be considered wildly successful vs Archie’s start.

I addressed that above...Archie is 1 win (BTT vs OSU in 2019) and a pandemic from pretty much having the same record Beilein had in his first 4 years...Archie has a better overall record (67-57 vs 67-67) and conference record 33-44 (43%) vs 30-42 (42%) in an arguably tougher B1G conference...

[IUCrazy2]

29 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Again, what part the program 4 years ago when CAM was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around? 
 

listen. I am all for moving on from CAM, but only for a handful of candidates. I am not for moving on just to move on. If the move is going to be made this year or next, might as well do it this year. 
 

I do believe CAM will be a good coach somewhere. For whatever reason it hasn’t worked out at IU to this point. 

Well where we disagree is with 4 years being considered a quick turn around.  Last year give him credit for making the tournament, it didn't happen so we are not 100% sure, but say he is in.  By year 4 (again, not a quick turn around) I expected that we would be a top half of the conference team and make the tournament.  I cannot see lowering the expectation any lower than just being able to make the tournament in your rth year at a school like Indiana.  He had some pieces left when he came on board.  He added pieces that we all thought were pretty good additions in years 1-3.  He added pieces with this freshmen class that we thought would be pretty good.  

How long were you expecting it to take?  I will tell you right now that nobody has been saying they were expecting an overall losing record and a losing record on year 4.  In fact, everyone last year was saying that this year should be the pay off year and it has arguably been his worst year here.  Now those who are left in his corner are arguing for just one more year because injuries, this guy is coming back, and who could we get that is better....which is literally the same exact arguments as last year.  Except last year you could argue some small statistical improvements to the offense and defense but we don't even have those positives anymore.

So what did I expect when he took the program over?  I expected steady improvement over each of the four years.  Improvement in our defense.  Improvement with how we moved the ball on offense.  Improvement in recruiting.  And all of those should have led to improvement in our actual W/L record.  What did you expect?  This was not a complete rebuild.  

[ledies22]

24 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You would hope in 4 years we could be a better shooting team and free throw shooting team.  I would hope by year 4 we could at least finished in the top 5 once and make the tournament.  I thought he would have this defense b eone of the better ones in the big ten but that hasn't happened.

i would agree. especially the defense part. That was CAMs pledge, and defense is easier to sustain from year to year. The shooting is a little more of a gray area. I would say, he has gone out to try to address the shooting issues with the freshman class and transfer of P Stew and other targeted recruits that just simply havent picked IU. The FT% has much to do with TJD. He shoots more than 36% of the teams FTs. I dont have the stats, but i would say TJD is making more FT now than he was in the first half of the season. 

[addictedtoIU]

6 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

My copp out answer is that is why you trust a coach enough to pay 3 million a year to figure it out and live with the results that come. 

This is always my mantra. In my mind, fans don't need to make excuses for a coach that makes 3+ million a year. People who make 6 figures or less get fired for better than what Archie has done for IU. To me, Archie's excuses in post game conferences sound like a CEO of a manufacturing company says "our products suck. they're just not selling in the market." when he is asked tough questions in a shareholders' meeting why he can't turn the company around. It's ultimately the CEO's responsibility from top to bottom. Same goes for the IU headcoach. 

[IU878176]

4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I addressed that above...Archie is 1 win (BTT vs OSU in 2019) and a pandemic from pretty much having the same record Beilein had in his first 4 years...Archie has a better overall record (67-57 vs 67-67) and conference record 33-44 (43%) vs 30-42 (42%) in an arguably tougher B1G conference...

If you asked 1,000 fans if, in 4 years, you would prefer to go to the tourney 2 of the four years, or zero, I think 999 would pick 2 of the 4 years.

If you asked 1,000 fans if they preferred a coach to have increasingly better conferences finishes (9,7,7,4) or worse finishes (6,9,10, tied for 10th) I think 999 would pick Beiliens record. 

You are comparing their 4 years overall conference record but again, Belien was 5-13 in his first year and Archie was 9-9. One has gotten better and the other has gotten worse.  
 

[ledies22]

2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Well where we disagree is with 4 years being considered a quick turn around.  Last year give him credit for making the tournament, it didn't happen so we are not 100% sure, but say he is in.  By year 4 (again, not a quick turn around) I expected that we would be a top half of the conference team and make the tournament.  I cannot see lowering the expectation any lower than just being able to make the tournament in your rth year at a school like Indiana.  He had some pieces left when he came on board.  He added pieces that we all thought were pretty good additions in years 1-3.  He added pieces with this freshmen class that we thought would be pretty good.  

How long were you expecting it to take?  I will tell you right now that nobody has been saying they were expecting an overall losing record and a losing record on year 4.  In fact, everyone last year was saying that this year should be the pay off year and it has arguably been his worst year here.  Now those who are left in his corner are arguing for just one more year because injuries, this guy is coming back, and who could we get that is better....which is literally the same exact arguments as last year.  Except last year you could argue some small statistical improvements to the offense and defense but we don't even have those positives anymore.

So what did I expect when he took the program over?  I expected steady improvement over each of the four years.  Improvement in our defense.  Improvement with how we moved the ball on offense.  Improvement in recruiting.  And all of those should have led to improvement in our actual W/L record.  What did you expect?  This was not a complete rebuild.  

I dont think we are far off from our viewpoints, i just havent (completely) lost hope in CAM. 

year four youd hope the NCAA was a no brainer, and 5-8 ish in B1G. We arent quite there yet. Should Archie being doing a better job? Absolutely, no doubt about that. But the way some people on this board has treated him even before this season started, is kind of crazy. 

Im in construction, maybe i am just used to things taking longer than expected😁

[IUFLA]

Just now, IU878176 said:

If you asked 1,000 fans if, in 4 years, you would prefer to go to the tourney 2 of the four years, or zero, I think 999 would pick 2 of the 4 years.

If you asked 1,000 fans if they preferred a coach to have increasingly better conferences finishes (9,7,7,4) or worse finishes (6,9,10, tied for 10th) I think 999 would pick Beiliens record. 

You are comparing their 4 years overall conference record but again, Belien was 5-13 in his first year and Archie was 9-9. One has gotten better and the other has gotten worse.  
 

You said this...

22 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

While his start was not amazing it would be considered wildly successful vs Archie’s start.

And all I'm saying is 1 win and a pandemic, and there's no difference to the records of the 2 coaches...If we beat OSU in 2019 BTT we're in...If we don't have a pandemic in 2020, we're in...

You have to be reasonable about this...And saying that JB's record in his first 4 years was "wildly successful" as opposed to Archie's record is just not the case...

Look, I get it...And I respect the opinions of those who want him gone after the last game of the season (barring a miracle). If that's what Scott Dolson decides, then so be it...I'll get behind the next coach just like I did with this one...

But I just don't see a reasonable alternative...And I believe with all my heart that if Dolson makes a change, he's got someone in mind...

And many aren't going to like it...

 

[Steubenhoosier]

5 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

If you asked 1,000 fans if, in 4 years, you would prefer to go to the tourney 2 of the four years, or zero, I think 999 would pick 2 of the 4 years.

If you asked 1,000 fans if they preferred a coach to have increasingly better conferences finishes (9,7,7,4) or worse finishes (6,9,10, tied for 10th) I think 999 would pick Beiliens record. 

You are comparing their 4 years overall conference record but again, Belien was 5-13 in his first year and Archie was 9-9. One has gotten better and the other has gotten worse.  
 

to be fair about it, in Beilien's first year, only 4 teams from the B1G made the tournament, one of which was a self-imploding IU team. In his second year, 7 teams made it, but the conference had no All-American players, no COY.

To say Beilien faced the gauntlet that CAM has wouldn't be accurate.

[IU878176]

10 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

i would agree. especially the defense part. That was CAMs pledge, and defense is easier to sustain from year to year. The shooting is a little more of a gray area. I would say, he has gone out to try to address the shooting issues with the freshman class and transfer of P Stew and other targeted recruits that just simply havent picked IU. The FT% has much to do with TJD. He shoots more than 36% of the teams FTs. I dont have the stats, but i would say TJD is making more FT now than he was in the first half of the season. 

Yes,

He has tried to find shooters but the bottom line is that he has had open scholarships while having a continuous 4 year need for better perimeter shooting. 

After 4 year does it even matter why the shooting/scoring drought issue hasn’t been successfully resolved? At some point, for whatever reason, one can come to the conclusion that things aren’t working.

[cybergates]

1 hour ago, ledies22 said:

Tony Bennett, Coach K, Scott Drew, Jay Wright (Hofstra and Nova). 

TB - 5 years

Coach K - 4 years

Scott Drew - 5 to 6 years

Jay Wright - 6 years at hofstra and 4 years at nova (4th year he had Randy Foye and Kyle Lowry)

Some coaches are not afforded the opportunity to be handed over the keys and succeed immediately. What part of IU basketball in years 1 and 2 of CAM did you think this was going to be a quick fix?

 

What did it Tony Bennett take 5 years to do? Win a tournament game or the ACC at UVA? His record (overall and in conference) improved each of his first 4 years there. Conference standings improved in 3 of 4 (4th year being the same 4th place finish as the year before).

Coach K finished 3rd in his 4th year, so it was showing improvement not trending the wrong direction like CAM. Plus this was 40years ago and isn't really relevant. Duke hired him from Army coming off a 9-17 record there, so I'm guessing their expectations in year 4 were a bit different as well.

Scott Drew took over a program that literally had a teammate murder another teammate at a school that had little to no basketball history, but I have to give you that it did take him 4 years to show improvement there (won 11 more games) and 5 years to make the NCAA, but Drew's comp is Crean not CAM IMO.

Jay Wright. Hofstra is irrelevant (comparable to including what CAM did at Dayton in the decision to retain/fire him). At Villanova, in the 4th year he finished 3rd (for the 2nd time) and made the Sweet 16. Clearly trending in the right direction, unlike CAM.

None of these coaches were trending downward in year 4 overall. You could pick something they were trending down in (Bennett missed the NCAA after making it previous year, K won 1 less game, etc.) but overall all of them were trending in the right direction.

 

[IU878176]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

You said this...

And all I'm saying is 1 win and a pandemic, and there's no difference to the records of the 2 coaches...If we beat OSU in 2019 BTT we're in...If we don't have a pandemic in 2020, we're in...

You have to be reasonable about this...And saying that JB's record in his first 4 years was "wildly successful" as opposed to Archie's record is just not the case...

Look, I get it...And I respect the opinions of those who want him gone after the last game of the season (barring a miracle). If that's what Scott Dolson decides, then so be it...I'll get behind the next coach just like I did with this one...

But I just don't see a reasonable alternative...And I believe with all my heart that if Dolson makes a change, he's got someone in mind...

And many aren't going to like it...

 

I agree with you that we would have been in last year. Good point.

The year we would have gotten in if we had beaten OSU however, is more of an indictment of Archie then an excuse. It was a virtual play-in game and we did not show up which has been an all to common theme in his tenure. His “brand” of having a hard nosed team that would make other teams feel like they were in a dogfight has been pure 100% BS.  The blame for not having tough, hard nosed teams was often laid at the feet of the dreaded “Creanians” but.....they are gone and we tied for 10th in the conference.  

[Hoosierfan1215]

I like Arch. I just can’t get past the product on the court over and over again. It’s a broken record. I don’t think you move on unless you get “the guy” tho. Don’t do it just for the sake of doing it. A 10 million dollar buy out may be enough to save him. But next year with no TJD idk how we are better. Better guard play maybe. It’s just so frustrating seeing all these big ten teams with better “ basketball players” than us. It’s like we think so much we forget to even play the damn game.  It’s a game. Try to have fun or something. We’re our own worst enemy. Losing sucks, so change it. The buck has to stop somewhere. 

[IU878176]

1 hour ago, ledies22 said:

Again, what part the program 4 years ago when CAM was hired did you think this was going to be a quick turn around? 
 

listen. I am all for moving on from CAM, but only for a handful of candidates. I am not for moving on just to move on. If the move is going to be made this year or next, might as well do it this year. 
 

I do believe CAM will be a good coach somewhere. For whatever reason it hasn’t worked out at IU to this point. 

It’s year 4 and we are still talking about quick turnarounds!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crean started at IU with nothing and was in the sweet 16 in year 4.

You can call me a “win now” person, with crazy expectations, but would it have been too much to ask for us to finish in sole possession of 10th place rather than tied for 10th? Is that too much to ask after only 4 years?

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

The year we would have gotten in if we had beaten OSU however, is more of an indictment of Archie then an excuse. It was a virtual play-in game and we did not show up which has been an all to common theme in his tenure.

We only lost by 4...79-75...

So they showed up...They just got beat...it happens...

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

We only lost by 4...79-75...

So they showed up...They just got beat...it happens...

Well if I remember correctly we were down like 17 with like 5 to go and Green went crazy from 3 to get us back into the game.

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Well if I remember correctly we were down like 17 with like 5 to go and Green went crazy from 3 to get us back into the game.

We were down 9 with 5 to go...And Devonte did put on a show...

[IU878176]

8 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

We only lost by 4...79-75...

So they showed up...They just got beat...it happens...

We were sleep walking in that game and getting stomped. If you were a defense attorney I would hire you because you will obviously defend your client no matter the evidence. Admire the  way you stick to it. If we lose today I will assume it was because the sun was in our eyes or something else that poor Archie just couldn’t help.

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

We were down 9 with 5 to go...And Devonte did put on a show...

I am pretty sure we were down more than that during some time in the second half.  I remember we were watching it on the TV in our office and people stopped watching it during the second half but then heard guys cheering when green went crazy.

[IUFLA]

Just now, IU878176 said:

We were sleep walking in that game and getting stomped. If you were a defense attorney I would hire you because you will obviously defend your client no matter the evidence. Admire the  way you stick to it. If we lose today I will assume it was because the sun was in our eyes or something else that poor Archie just couldn’t help.

The fact remains that as I said in comparison to Beilein, 1 win and a pandemic...

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am pretty sure we were down more than that during some time in the second half.  I remember we were watching it on the TV in our office and people stopped watching it during the second half but then heard guys cheering when green went crazy.

We were...fought back, but at the 5 minute mark, it was 9...got to within 2, but just not enough time...

[ledies22]

15 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

It’s year 4 and we are still talking about quick turnarounds!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crean started at IU with nothing and was in the sweet 16 in year 4.

You can call me a “win now” person, with crazy expectations, but would it have been too much to ask for us to finish in sole possession of 10th place rather than tied for 10th? Is that too much to ask after only 4 years?

Get outta here. no need to be facetious. With the program we had 4 years ago, a quick turnaround would be expecting anything in the first 3 years. year 4 should start automatic NCAA tournament bids, and finishing upper half of the B1G. Archie had Rob Johnson and Juwan Morgan!????. and his first recruiting class was crean's. Yes, CAM is underperforming at the moment. No he does not deserve how people are treating him. 

[IU878176]

Just now, IUFLA said:

The fact remains that as I said in comparison to Beilein, 1 win and a pandemic...

The fact remains that Beilein’s worst year was his first, with the other coaches players.

The fact remains that Archie’s best finish was his first year, with all Crean players.

One coaches trajectory was positive and the other coaches trajectory is negative. Beilein’s trajectory was positive to the extent that in year 5 UM won the Big Ten with a 13-5 record.
While I would love for Archie to come back and win the Big Ten next year I think the  odds are better that I will wake up tomorrow morning in bed with the 4 Miss Universe finalists.

[IU878176]

5 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Get outta here. no need to be facetious. With the program we had 4 years ago, a quick turnaround would be expecting anything in the first 3 years. year 4 should start automatic NCAA tournament bids, and finishing upper half of the B1G. Archie had Rob Johnson and Juwan Morgan!????. and his first recruiting class was crean's. Yes, CAM is underperforming at the moment. No he does not deserve how people are treating him. 

I think he is a great guy but don’t like the results. That does not mean I hate him or am treating him badly.

[ledies22]

38 minutes ago, cybergates said:

What did it Tony Bennett take 5 years to do? Win a tournament game or the ACC at UVA? His record (overall and in conference) improved each of his first 4 years there. Conference standings improved in 3 of 4 (4th year being the same 4th place finish as the year before).

Coach K finished 3rd in his 4th year, so it was showing improvement not trending the wrong direction like CAM. Plus this was 40years ago and isn't really relevant. Duke hired him from Army coming off a 9-17 record there, so I'm guessing their expectations in year 4 were a bit different as well.

Scott Drew took over a program that literally had a teammate murder another teammate at a school that had little to no basketball history, but I have to give you that it did take him 4 years to show improvement there (won 11 more games) and 5 years to make the NCAA, but Drew's comp is Crean not CAM IMO.

Jay Wright. Hofstra is irrelevant (comparable to including what CAM did at Dayton in the decision to retain/fire him). At Villanova, in the 4th year he finished 3rd (for the 2nd time) and made the Sweet 16. Clearly trending in the right direction, unlike CAM.

None of these coaches were trending downward in year 4 overall. You could pick something they were trending down in (Bennett missed the NCAA after making it previous year, K won 1 less game, etc.) but overall all of them were trending in the right direction.

 

TB: made the tournament years 3 and 5, NIT year four. sound somewhat familiar?

Coach K finished 3rd in the ACC at 7-7 out of 8 teams. ACC then is not what the ACC is now. 

Scott Drew: nice job cutting out the NIT in year 6

Jay Wright: was a little bit of a stretch. but i tried