BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 24 minutes ago, btownqb said: Because I honestly see nothing in his McHale's game that could translate vs. players now. I don't believe the 80s was the golden age as a lot of people do. Same thing with the NFL compartively to their era.. McHale is absolutely a better player, a much better player. But that's comparative to their era. Not when you compare era to era. Turner plays in the 80s.. he is a game changer, as are a lot of other players with his size and athleticism and skill set. Post defense is a lot easier when you're bigger, longer, and stronger than the other person. McHale would get some points.. he wouldn't dominate Turner. Wouldn't abuse him. You keep ignoring that McHale dominated BIG MEN that are far greater defenders than Turner, and this was in an era where big guys played like big guys. He dominated big men that were far tougher and far better post defenders (because they had to be) than Turner. Kevin McHale was plenty tall, long and athletic enough to vastly outplay a player of Turner's caliber, he's outplayed far superior players. Turner would not be a game-changer in the 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, BGleas said: You keep ignoring that McHale dominated BIG MEN that are far greater defenders than Turner, and this was in an era where big guys played like big guys. He dominated big men that were far tougher and far better post defenders (because they had to be) than Turner. Kevin McHale was plenty tall, long and athletic enough to vastly outplay a player of Turner's caliber, he's outplayed far superior players. Turner would not be a game-changer in the 80's. I don't see any way shape or form McHale would whip Turner. 210lbs. He's little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 I see nothing that McHale could do offensively that Turner couldn't guard somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 33 minutes ago, btownqb said: Because I honestly see nothing in his McHale's game that could translate vs. players now. I don't believe the 80s was the golden age as a lot of people do. Same thing with the NFL compartively to their era.. McHale is absolutely a better player, a much better player. But that's comparative to their era. Not when you compare era to era. Turner plays in the 80s.. he is a game changer, as are a lot of other players with his size and athleticism and skill set. Post defense is a lot easier when you're bigger, longer, and stronger than the other person. McHale would get some points.. he wouldn't dominate Turner. Wouldn't abuse him. For real, watch the first 45 seconds of this video. He scores on the block, hits a 3, makes a move from the top of the key and finishes an And-1 in the lane, and all against some of the best/better defenders (Bobby Jones, Laimbeer, Rodman, spacing the floor with Horace Grant guarding him) in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEZzhybujI 1st play - Killer up and under mover 2nd play - Scores between Bobby Jones (8-time 1st-Team All Defense) and Moses Malone (one of the greatest centers ever) 3rd play - Scores over Ralph Sampson (pre-injuries), a much taller and longer player 4th play - Weird block, not sure why that's in there 5th play - Takes the ball of the dribble from the 3-pt line to the basket and finishes an And-1. That's a 6'10" power forward with handles and finishing in the lane. Who knew they could do that in the 80's? 6th play - Hits a 3. Again, who knew a pf in the 80's could do that? 7th play - Finishes an And-1 with a great post move in between Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman against the Bad Boy Pistons, one of the best defensive teams to play the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, btownqb said: I see nothing that McHale could do offensively that Turner couldn't guard somewhat. We're kind of just going around in circles at this point. I guess agree to disagree. I just know the guy I'm backing is an elite HOFer with arguably the best offensive post moves in NBA history, and the guy you're backing is an average starter in the NBA. Not sure how this is even a discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 http://www.nba.com/history/players/mchale_bio.html Bio about Kevin McHale and he was closer to 6'10 and 230lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daily Hoosier Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, FKIM01 said: bring De'Ron in and feed the post several times to allow him to score some easy buckets and draw fouls. I was nodding my head in agreement until I read "draw fouls" which gave me airball flashbacks. Seriously thought, I agree with what you are saying. DD has been up and moving for a while, so hopefully he has been shooting FTs every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, BGleas said: For real, watch the first 45 seconds of this video. He scores on the block, hits a 3, makes a move from the top of the key and finishes an And-1 in the lane, and all against some of the best/better defenders (Bobby Jones, Laimbeer, Rodman, spacing the floor with Horace Grant guarding him) in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEZzhybujI 6th play - Hits a 3. Again, who knew a pf in the 80's could do that? I said earlier he was great shooter. Great free throw shooter too, IIRC. I think he played 30 years before his time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said: I was nodding my head in agreement until I read "draw fouls" which gave me airball flashbacks. Seriously thought, I agree with what you are saying. DD has been up and moving for a while, so hopefully he has been shooting FTs every day. LOL...of course I'm assuming that he gets his stroke from the line back, but really...how is it really different shooting 60% (I think he can do better) from the free throw line and shooting 60% from close range? I understand the need to shoot a higher percentage in crunch time but short of the end of game drama, statistically speaking, those two are no different effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 The REAL comparison should be Damon Bailey vs. Dennis Rodman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted May 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, BGleas said: For real, watch the first 45 seconds of this video. He scores on the block, hits a 3, makes a move from the top of the key and finishes an And-1 in the lane, and all against some of the best/better defenders (Bobby Jones, Laimbeer, Rodman, spacing the floor with Horace Grant guarding him) in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEZzhybujI 1st play - Killer up and under mover 2nd play - Scores between Bobby Jones (8-time 1st-Team All Defense) and Moses Malone (one of the greatest centers ever) 3rd play - Scores over Ralph Sampson (pre-injuries), a much taller and longer player 4th play - Weird block, not sure why that's in there 5th play - Takes the ball of the dribble from the 3-pt line to the basket and finishes an And-1. That's a 6'10" power forward with handles and finishing in the lane. Who knew they could do that in the 80's? 6th play - Hits a 3. Again, who knew a pf in the 80's could do that? 7th play - Finishes an And-1 with a great post move in between Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman against the Bad Boy Pistons, one of the best defensive teams to play the game He's definitely got some great moves, but for all the talk about how physical the NBA was back then I see very little actual contact in the post. I also see a LOT of bad defense. I may be mischaracterizing BTown's point, but I don't think he is saying Turner is better. I think he is saying Turner would still be an above average big and would fare fine against McHale. I'll go ahead and point out, when McHale was 23 he averaged 10 and 4. Turner averages 12 and 6 and still hasn't turned 23. Turner has a lot of the trade of being an NBA player to learn, by physically he absolutely has more tools than McHale. Let's revisit this talk in about 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FW_Hoosier Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 2 hours ago, btownqb said: probably some of the least impressive clips I've ever seen to backup an argument LOL, I love watching those kinds of “highlights.” Watching guys like McHale “dominate” all those unathletic scrubs playing such obviously bad defense cracks me up. McHale would be lucky to average 15 ppg in today’s NBA. He would be way less athletic than 90% of the players currently in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: He's definitely got some great moves, but for all the talk about how physical the NBA was back then I see very little actual contact in the post. I also see a LOT of bad defense. I may be mischaracterizing BTown's point, but I don't think he is saying Turner is better. I think he is saying Turner would still be an above average big and would fare fine against McHale. I'll go ahead and point out, when McHale was 23 he averaged 10 and 4. Turner averages 12 and 6 and still hasn't turned 23. Turner has a lot of the trade of being an NBA player to learn, by physically he absolutely has more tools than McHale. Let's revisit this talk in about 7 years. What are we saying "fare fine" means? Fair as fine as any average player would trying to defend against an elite HOF level offensive player? Sure. I'm not saying McHale would score 50 (though he's capable of it) in a game if Turner was defending him. I'm saying in his prime he would do what he did against any other typical (not All-Star level) starter in the NBA. Tough to compare stats at the same age. Guys just didn't leave early 30 years ago. It wasn't a thing. Also, 30 years ago most guys came to veteran laden teams, as was the case with McHale, so they had to wait their turn. I get it though, Myles Turner is a solid young player who has upside to potentially get better. If he really achieves his potential he could be an All-Star. No disagreement from me there. But, Kevin McHale is literally a proven HOF player who has been touted as having the best post moves ever by other HOF players. To act like his moves/offensive game were "ok" or "nothing special" is lunacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUALUM03 Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, BGleas said: For real, watch the first 45 seconds of this video. He scores on the block, hits a 3, makes a move from the top of the key and finishes an And-1 in the lane, and all against some of the best/better defenders (Bobby Jones, Laimbeer, Rodman, spacing the floor with Horace Grant guarding him) in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEZzhybujI 1st play - Killer up and under mover 2nd play - Scores between Bobby Jones (8-time 1st-Team All Defense) and Moses Malone (one of the greatest centers ever) 3rd play - Scores over Ralph Sampson (pre-injuries), a much taller and longer player 4th play - Weird block, not sure why that's in there 5th play - Takes the ball of the dribble from the 3-pt line to the basket and finishes an And-1. That's a 6'10" power forward with handles and finishing in the lane. Who knew they could do that in the 80's? 6th play - Hits a 3. Again, who knew a pf in the 80's could do that? 7th play - Finishes an And-1 with a great post move in between Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman against the Bad Boy Pistons, one of the best defensive teams to play the game I don't have a horse in this race with McHale. I do believe he was good and would get his in today's game, but I think everyone is focusing too much on McHale's skillset and not focusing on the level of PF he was playing up against during this time. IMO, that position is far better than it was in 80s athletically and in return offensively/defensively. Lebron, Horford, Aldridge, Anthony-Townes, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Griffin, Love, Jokic, Milsap, A. Gordon, Sabonis, Markkanen, Porzingis, Antetokounmpo are all players he could go against down low. While McHale's fundamentals are off the charts, I still think his craftiness in post moves would be negated strictly by the players athleticism allowing them to recover. The depth is far greater today. While you can argue physicality or lack there of in today's game would help McHale offensively (I still say athleticism gives him fits), it would absolutely kill him defensively. He made up for his lack of athleticism to a degree by being extremely physical on defense. I also argue that McHale is definitely no longer in the top 50 all-time. 25 years have passed since McHale played and 22 years since that was created on the 50th anniversary of the NBA. There have been several better players that have played since then. He would be an honorable mention on that list at best, if made today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 minute ago, IUALUM03 said: I don't have a horse in this race with McHale. I do believe he was good and would get his in today's game, but I think everyone is focusing too much on McHale's skillset and not focusing on the level of PF he was playing up against during this time. IMO, that position is far better than it was in 80s athletically and in return offensively/defensively. Lebron, Horford, Aldridge, Anthony-Townes, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Griffin, Love, Jokic, Milsap, A. Gordon, Sabonis, Markkanen, Porzingis, Antetokounmpo are all players he could go against down low. While McHale's fundamentals are off the charts, I still think his craftiness in post moves would be negated strictly by the players athleticism allowing them to recover. The depth is far greater today. While you can argue physicality or lack there of in today's game would help McHale offensive (I still say athleticism gives him fits), it would absolutely kill him defensively. He made up for his lack of athleticism to a degree by being extremely physical. I also argue that McHale is definitely no longer in the top 50 all-time. 25 years have passed since McHale played and 22 years since that was created on the 50th anniversary of the NBA. There have been several better players that have played since then. He would be an honorable mention at best. He seemed to fair just fine against Kareem, Hakeem, Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Oakley, Ewing, Robinson, Laimbeer, Moses Malone, Daryl Dawkins, Brad Daugherty, Sikma, Ralph Sampson, Larry Nance, Buck Williams, etc., etc. There were/are great players in both eras. Kevin McHale is one of those great players, regardless of era. Myles Turner, at least to this point, certainly is nowhere close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daily Hoosier Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 56 minutes ago, FKIM01 said: LOL...of course I'm assuming that he gets his stroke from the line back, but really...how is it really different shooting 60% (I think he can do better) from the free throw line and shooting 60% from close range? I understand the need to shoot a higher percentage in crunch time but short of the end of game drama, statistically speaking, those two are no different effectively. They aren't different in results, but 60% from the field while guarded is great, 60% from the line could be much better. As Jordy Hulls says, that's why they call them "free". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, BGleas said: He seemed to fair just fine against Kareem, Hakeem, Worthy, Barkley, Malone, Oakley, Ewing, Robinson, Laimbeer, Moses Malone, Daryl Dawkins, Brad Daugherty, Sikma, Ralph Sampson, Larry Nance, Buck Williams, etc., etc. There were/are great players in both eras. Kevin McHale is one of those great players, regardless of era. Myles Turner, at least to this point, certainly is nowhere close. Meh, those players are ok. This discussion seems to have turned into another era debate. It's really impossible to argue era v. era, if McHale played today one would assume he'd have the benefit of all the conditioning, weight training etc. Regardless, I think this whole discussion started, and really should have ended, with the simple point that Turner is in no way shape or form remotely near discussion of an all time great. He wasn't even that good this year. Hopefully he gets there, tons of upside, but he was not one of the best players this year in today's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted May 21, 2018 Report Share Posted May 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Meh, those players are ok. This discussion seems to have turned into another era debate. It's really impossible to argue era v. era, if McHale played today one would assume he'd have the benefit of all the conditioning, weight training etc. Regardless, I think this whole discussion started, and really should have ended, with the simple point that Turner is in no way shape or form remotely near discussion of an all time great. He wasn't even that good this year. Hopefully he gets there, tons of upside, but he was not one of the best players this year in today's game. To your point about the training and conditioning, I have no doubt that if Kevin McHale came up in this era (with the training and being taught the perimeter game, etc.) he’d be every bit as good as a guy like Chris Bosh or Kevin Love. He’s not as athletic as Bosh clearly, but his offensive moves are better than both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 6 hours ago, BGleas said: We're kind of just going around in circles at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 One thing that I have not seen in this discussion is how the college game has changed. Guys like McHale played with no shot clock or 3 point line while in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 In light of our new posting members, should Yao Ming be part of this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 15 hours ago, btownqb said: I see nothing that McHale could do offensively that Turner couldn't guard somewhat. Not sure. McHale had about 11 pivot feet. He could get crafty when he wanted. Haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, rico said: One thing that I have not seen in this discussion is how the college game has changed. Guys like McHale played with no shot clock or 3 point line while in college. Besides the shot clock and the 3 point line the biggest difference is that the game is a lot younger. If players still stayed for 3 or 4 years like they use to then the game would be in a lot better shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Besides the shot clock and the 3 point line the biggest difference is that the game is a lot younger. If players still stayed for 3 or 4 years like they use to then the game would be in a lot better shape. That wasn't my point. Not comparing that at all and guys left early back in the 70's and 80's as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, rico said: That wasn't my point. Not comparing that at all and guys left early back in the 70's and 80's as well. My bad, I thought you was talking about how the college game changed overall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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