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18 years ago on Sept. 10, in IU history.....


milehiiu
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2 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

I was there in Dunn Meadow. Sad day in sports 

Think of it. For right or wrong.  Regardless of what one thought of Knight at the time.  I do believe he had more positive going for him, at that time, than he does today. Albeit for different reasons......  IU has fired the two winningest coaches they have had in history.  Knight in BB. And Mallory in FB. 

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11 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Think of it. For right or wrong.  Regardless of what one thought of Knight at the time.  I do believe he had more positive going for him, at that time, than he does today. Albeit for different reasons......  IU has fired the two winningest coaches they have had in history.  Knight in BB. And Mallory in FB. 

Firing Knight was necessary, given the circumstances.  Firing Mallory was just plain stupid.

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4 minutes ago, HoosierJax said:

Worst day in IU sports

Years later I look back on Knight's tenure in Bloomington.  I don't like what I see now that I am in my 50's.  He should have been fired well before he was.  Every once in awhile I see the chair throwing incident.....and I wonder what would have happened if it would have hit Steve Reid, who was at the line.  To be honest, he should have been cut loose right then.

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18 minutes ago, rico said:

Years later I look back on Knight's tenure in Bloomington.  I don't like what I see now that I am in my 50's.  He should have been fired well before he was.  Every once in awhile I see the chair throwing incident.....and I wonder what would have happened if it would have hit Steve Reid, who was at the line.  To be honest, he should have been cut loose right then.

This is one of the rare occasions i disagree with you. IU allowed and even condoned the behavior  they us we all allowed it. At what point do you say enough is enough. If we had another title in the 90's would that have changed the outcome.

Bullish behavior plus losing cost Knight his job. I know the arguement that pro vs college but i have seen Tommy Lasorda unload every bat and ball across the field hockey coaches throw every stick onto the ice. No excuses it was childish but we mostly all accepted it cheered it applauded it and supported it.  We helped create the monster that Bob Knight became 

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Every good thing eventually comes to an end. Knight era was winding down, and the game passed him by. It would've been perfect if he resigned before all those happened, but then he might have appointed Pat Knight as his successor, which would've been a different kind of disaster. Considering Knight's giant ego, I feel there was no desirable ending. 

I'm just very happy we finally have Archie Miller. the guy who could be as good as Knight, but without baggage. 

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21 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

This is one of the rare occasions i disagree with you. IU allowed and even condoned the behavior  they us we all allowed it. At what point do you say enough is enough. If we had another title in the 90's would that have changed the outcome.

Bullish behavior plus losing cost Knight his job. I know the arguement that pro vs college but i have seen Tommy Lasorda unload every bat and ball across the field hockey coaches throw every stick onto the ice. No excuses it was childish but we mostly all accepted it cheered it applauded it and supported it.  We helped create the monster that Bob Knight became 

I understand.

But I look back.  The start of the 78-79 season he kicks 3 players off in Alaska and pretty much puts the rest on "probation".  79 Pan-American games he assaults a Puerto Rican police officer.  Success came........until that 84-85 season which was a meltdown that is epitomized by throwing the chair.  I keep thinking Mike Giomi and Marty Simmons.  Something else was going on other than a sucky season.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

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11 minutes ago, rico said:

I understand.

But I look back.  The start of the 78-79 season he kicks 3 players off in Alaska and pretty much puts the rest on "probation".  79 Pan-American games he assaults a Puerto Rican police officer.  Success came........until that 84-85 season which was a meltdown that is epitomized by throwing the chair.  I keep thinking Mike Giomi and Marty Simmons.  Something else was going on other than a sucky season.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

I think you would know more than i in those situations my glasees are a littke too bob Knight red sweater colored to be fair 

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Clearly Knight's attitude and commitment to the program had really soured (he's said as much).  He needed to leave and IU needed to go in a new direction.  Unfortunately, because of the personalities involved it couldn't be an amicable parting and had to occur with a lot of acrimony.

Knight came really close to leaving for NM back around '88 or '89.  I've wondered how different history may have been if he had left.  We'd won 2 titles in the last 8 seasons and were without a doubt still one of the 3 most "elite" programs at the time.  Obviously we can never know.  I'm not so sure RMK isn't a lot like Larry Brown as far as being able to exist in one job for long.

I was a big fan of the man, even bought tickets and went to his 50th birthday 'party' at Market Square Arena.  I followed the old "he may be a SOB, but he's our SOB" philosophy, but knew it was time for him to go when it all hit the fan.

 

 

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A lot of things led to his downfall but the game passing him by was not one of them in my opinion. The state of Indiana was during a down period of elite talent and at that time Knight began to allow his assistant coaches to do most of the recruiting. At that same time the NCAA made some changes on the number of contacts a head couch could have with recruits.  In the 70's-early 90's those kids knew exactly what to expect with Knight and he knew those kids forward and backwards. When he met with a recruit and their family those parents knew what to expect and Knight did his homework on each of the kids. By the time that an offer was made to a kid the staff had a tremendous feel for the type of person he was. Feeling pressure from Knight some of the assistants began to sugar coat how things would be for the player once they made it to campus. Trying to get high profile out of state kids they had to appease parents and tell them the stories were exaggerated. I think both parents and players went in not completely understanding what level of hell they were about to enter. 

If Coach Knight would have known Charlie Miller the person the way that he knew Quinn Buckner the person there is no way on earth that Miller ever would have stepped foot on campus. Over the 30 years Knight made a few mistakes on character and such with kids but in the late 90's there were more misses than hits. Those guys had no idea and Knight was not changing for anyone. There were still plenty of players out there that would have loved to play for him but Knight was more interested in hunting fishing and without having the extensive contact with players, we brought in kids not able to be successful in our system.

 

Not all kids could play for Knight that is for sure. Andre Emmett showed that he could.  https://nypost.com/2004/03/21/knight-to-remember-texas-tech-star-credits-coach-with-big-assist/

 

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4 hours ago, rico said:

Years later I look back on Knight's tenure in Bloomington.  I don't like what I see now that I am in my 50's.  He should have been fired well before he was.  Every once in awhile I see the chair throwing incident.....and I wonder what would have happened if it would have hit Steve Reid, who was at the line.  To be honest, he should have been cut loose right then.

We tolerated a lot because he won.  It's no different than how OSU treats Urban Meyer.  That doesn't make me proud...it simply acknowledges who we were.  Not only was Knight successful, he showed the ability to be compassionate as well.  Look no further than Landon Turner to witness the depths of his generosity.  That, along with winning helped us overlook his obvious flaws.  Hopefully, the Knight era taught IU and it's fans a lot about how to deal with abusive personalities.  I'm sure glad it's behind us.

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4 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

We tolerated a lot because he won.  It's no different than how OSU treats Urban Meyer.  That doesn't make me proud...it simply acknowledges who we were.  Not only was Knight successful, he showed the ability to be compassionate as well.  Look no further than Landon Turner to witness the depths of his generosity.  That, along with winning helped us overlook his obvious flaws.  Hopefully, the Knight era taught IU and it's fans a lot about how to deal with abusive personalities.  I'm sure glad it's behind us.

All good stuff.....but it will never be behind us until that next banner is hanging.

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3 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

A lot of things led to his downfall but the game passing him by was not one of them in my opinion. The state of Indiana was during a down period of elite talent and at that time Knight began to allow his assistant coaches to do most of the recruiting. At that same time the NCAA made some changes on the number of contacts a head couch could have with recruits.  In the 70's-early 90's those kids knew exactly what to expect with Knight and he knew those kids forward and backwards. When he met with a recruit and their family those parents knew what to expect and Knight did his homework on each of the kids. By the time that an offer was made to a kid the staff had a tremendous feel for the type of person he was. Feeling pressure from Knight some of the assistants began to sugar coat how things would be for the player once they made it to campus. Trying to get high profile out of state kids they had to appease parents and tell them the stories were exaggerated. I think both parents and players went in not completely understanding what level of hell they were about to enter. 

If Coach Knight would have known Charlie Miller the person the way that he knew Quinn Buckner the person there is no way on earth that Miller ever would have stepped foot on campus. Over the 30 years Knight made a few mistakes on character and such with kids but in the late 90's there were more misses than hits. Those guys had no idea and Knight was not changing for anyone. There were still plenty of players out there that would have loved to play for him but Knight was more interested in hunting fishing and without having the extensive contact with players, we brought in kids not able to be successful in our system.

 

Not all kids could play for Knight that is for sure. Andre Emmett showed that he could.  https://nypost.com/2004/03/21/knight-to-remember-texas-tech-star-credits-coach-with-big-assist/

 

No 4 year player at IU left without a big ten title until the freshmen class of 93. No freshmen he recruited after that would win a conference title under him. 

Part of that might of been the style of recruiting had changed so he had less talent but there are a number of examples of coaches winning without the most talent. 

Something changed either the game passed him by or he didn’t have the same level of commitment. You don’t win half your conference titles in a 22 span and the go winless in the next 14 if something hasn’t changed

Edited by Brass Cannon
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48 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

No 4 year player at IU left without a big ten title until the freshmen class of 93. No freshmen he recruited after that would win a conference title under him. 

Part of that might of been the style of recruiting had changed so he had less talent but there are a number of examples of coaches winning without the most talent. 

Something changed either the game passed him by or he didn’t have the same level of commitment. You don’t win half your conference titles in a 22 span and the go winless in the next 14 if something hasn’t changed

Something most definitely happened.  He turned the majority of recruiting over to felling and company. The kids were not the type of kids that could handle knight very well

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10 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

Dakich and Felling took over the recruiting until Knight took back over with the Jeffries, Newton, Leach, Fife, Hornsby, Coverdale group.  What did they do?? Went to the final 4.  I still think if Knight was more involved after the early 90’s he would have hung another banner.

Spot on!! The whole Felling and Brian Cardinal fiasco 

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For what's it's worth.  As far as I am concerned, what caused Knight's spiral, happened years before he was hired. And it had nothing to do with his passion nor knowledge of the game.... but everything to do with his perception, right or wrong with his treatment from the administration at IU, from the President's on down to the Athletic Directors. 

Hear me out.

Bill Orwig was perhaps the most success Athletic Director in IU history.  Orwig hired John Pont, who took IU to their one and only Rose Bowl.  Under, Orwig, IU football attendance moved from under 20k, to well over 40K.  And it was Orwig who hired Bobby Knight.  Knight once said that Orwig, was the one person he knew who could not only work with people, but also knew how to work with coaches.

Then... others replaced Orwig. All of which Knight seemed to have issues with.  Frustration built up. It did not help when Knight broke a vase in Ralph Floyd's office.  Knight started to think about moving on.  Came close to taking the New Mexico gig.  In fact said, it was a mistake, not taking the gig... as relationships between he, the AD and the President continued to degenerate. Did not help when a video of Knight choking Neil Reed in practice was made public.

For me. The fire went out for Knight, not because of the game. But with the administration. Here was a guy who was not making that much in terms of other coaches at the time. Loved teaching classes to students. And did it on a regular basis.  Even offered to return a year's salary after a disappointing season. And had contributed large sums to IU's libraries.  Which, IMHO, is why.... to this day, he refuses to step foot on campus. Now, I like others condemn him for not forgiving. But also can understand why he feels the way he does.

Finally, things came to a head with the president at the time ( Myles Brand) who finally fired Bobby. It was Bobby, being Bobby, admonishing a student, rather than losing a game. Because Bobby was being Bobby, not coach, and by then, other than the fans,  Bobby had no one on his side of the court.  Sure he caused a lot.  But he wasn't getting the support, in his eyes, that he felt he had when he hired into IU.   On the end, and IMHO.... it was not his coaching abilities that caused Bobby to get fired.

 

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I will say it has to be an odd arrangement being a HC at places like IU or Kentucky for basketball or Michigan and Notre Dame in football. 

You as the coach are the face you get the blame when losses happen but your boss who can fire you can manipulate things behind the scene that hinder your performance. Yet you get the brunt of the blame. They just get flack for employing you. 

It would have been interesting had Knight gone to New Mexico. Does he build a power out there. Or does he flounder. Who do we hire to replace him.  Who were the hot coaches that year?

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15 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I will say it has to be an odd arrangement being a HC at places like IU or Kentucky for basketball or Michigan and Notre Dame in football. 

You as the coach are the face you get the blame when losses happen but your boss who can fire you can manipulate things behind the scene that hinder your performance. Yet you get the brunt of the blame. They just get flack for employing you. 

It would have been interesting had Knight gone to New Mexico. Does he build a power out there. Or does he flounder. Who do we hire to replace him.  Who were the hot coaches that year?

To answer your question about New Mexico.  I followed one Texas Tech fan site very closely, while Knight was coach there.  And when Pat replaced him.  They had one avid fan who went by the name XIUfan.  Who took every opportunity to knock IU, and promote Knight.  Fans at first were very much in favor of Coach Knight.   Remember, the reality show, Knight School ? Where Bobby took a bunch of walk on players, and guaranteed them a spot on the team ?  I loved that show.  And one player did make it on the team.

I digress.  After time.... the TT fanbase on that side turned on Bobby, big time, and XIUfan, as well.  Which may have been one reason, IMHO, why he walked out of the gig, mid season.

Ask any TT fan today.... and to use your term.... he floundered. 

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