Arkansas post game

[hoosiermd]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Coaches who are better than Archie

Coach K

Self

Bennett

Calapari( would never want him at IU)

Marshall

Izzo

Beard

I am sure that there are more but this is the top of my head but who on this list do you think we could get.

But that's the thing though. You could sell Beard. I don't know how you do it. I'm not an AD nor a saleman, but you back up the Brinks truck, sell him on the history of Indiana basketball, tell him what he did at Texas Tech last year is the best he's going to get and sell him on becoming a legend. That's the sell. Whether you or I believe that can be solid is irrelevant, you need to find an AD and  President that CAN sell it. 

[JugRox]

2 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Developing coaches like those guys are different.  I remember when they were young and they were HIGHLY regarded.  There’s simply no evidence that Archie is in that category.   Those guys took time to develop which is different from sucking. No one thought they were struggling.  You’re a nice guy but this isn’t sound analysis.  

We were 12-2 last year and the staff was helpless despite having Romeo and Juwan.  Adjustments were lacking.  If anyone read this board, there were plenty of well thought out adjustments that people proposed.  Yet our staff mostly decided to stay with the plan, with catastrophic results.  

Today’s loss should never, ever have happened.  I don’t think even Mike Davis, who was a rank amateur, would have lost this game.  For all his follies, he understood valuing the ball.  

The next AD is an important guy.  We need forward thinking, not somebody thinking in the past.  We also need a dynamic guy with outside thinking who can be persuasive with the higher ups in the administration and Board.

We don’t necessarily need an IU guy.  I have no idea who are assistant ADs at places like Duke and Kansas but I’d take a look at people with know how as to how to  positively run basketball.  I like IU football as much as most, but B-ball will always butter the bread here.  It’s good business for the school to fix it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Miller is 41 years old. I don’t think he is done improving.
 

IU was one win away from the NCAA last year. That’s not “helpless”. And they are currently 11-2.

And you are seriously comparing Mike Davis to Miller? 

[HoosierDom]

If somehow we could get Brad Stevens or Billy Donovan, then I'm on board. I don't know of any other plausible candidate that is clearly better than what we have. And those two probably aren't actually plausible. If we made fts or 3's, we win. You don't win many games shooting the way we did tonight. 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

That's fair. I think the easy out is what IU Scott has done and just says Indiana isn't "elite" anymore and if you believe that then everything else makes sense. If Indiana is just run of the mill and is simply your average program, then expectations should adjust accordingly. It's that simple. If all we are in Kansas State or NC State or Alabama then yeah, give Archie 10 years and if we make a couple of Sweet 16s then everyone will be really really happy and we can all go home.

History simply says otherwise as does our fanbase so operating out of the assumption that we aren't a blueblood or that we don't have a history is just silly and unfortunate because it doesn't really provide any real solutions even though it falls under the guise of "hey I'm the only reasonable one here." so it has the appearance of wisdom yet is just fallacy at its finest trying to feel good about themselves for being a loser and accepting mediocrity. The IU fanbase simply won't accept average and that is where you have to come at the problem. 

I think more than anything Indiana simply is working in the shadow of Bob Knight. It's really that simple and for those of us old enough to know, that SHADOW is enormous. I think most of us who were around for Knight's glory years probably believe deep down Knight could have taken 7-8 solid 3* Indiana HS kids and beat Arkansas by 20. It's just the truth. Like the man or don't like him, he's arguably the greatest basketball mind the world has every produced. 

The other problem is that Indiana has no lineage & you have an administration that has worked against the program. Just look a the plethora of postings on this forum and you'll find enough support for that to be true. But the lineage is important. Just going back 50 years, Louisville went from Denny Crum to Rick Pitino to Chris Mack. Duke went from Bill E. Foster to Mike Krzyzewski and Foster did well while at Duke. UNC pretty much went from Dean Smith to Roy Williams. Matt Doherty only got 3 years at UNC. How many years to Billy Gillespie get at UK? I think it was 2 and didn't he 20 games in his 2nd year? Michigan St. went from Heathcote to Izzo. UCLA has had similar problems going on from John Wooden. 

Who the heir apparent is? I have no idea, but was UNC or UK really hurt by pulling the trigger so fast? Did Indiana really benefit from being patient with Tom Crean? 

I saw all 3 championships under RMK and I think I am as bad as anyone about living in the past.  Yes we are a blue blood and a great past but that won't help the program today to get back to the top.  All I am saying is that I think impatience that our fan base shows has hurt the program and us living off of our history does not help with today's players.

I also think Gillespie was fired for being a drunk and how he treated people over what they did on the court.

[D-BONE]

The "the guy" narrative is unlikely to happen with the state of this program. It would be more like rolling the dice on another Archie Miller - profile guy. Someone with potential, but unproven in a power conference. Or maybe another Crean-profile type. Had some (limited) success on the big stage somewhere, but unable to sustain over time. I don't think you can aspire to landing a big fish at this point. The last 8 minutes of this game was like the WI game. Played like we could care less despite being on the cusp of a win in front of the home crowd. Very concerning.

[Let]

Green is just never gonna learn, he will continue to make STUPID PASSES AND PLAY OUT OF CONTROL!!!! It's to bad because he can shoot. I say CUT him. When Archie made that mass substitution in the first half, I knew we were in trouble. I still don't think Brunk is any good but he is the second best we have underneath. Leave him and TJD IN THE GAME. Durham pulled a really stupid trick, tell him one more and your DONE! Nothing against Archie, from what I've seen he's probably as good as anyone we could hire. Somehow, he has got to find some players who can shoot the ball. Last year Purdue didn't have great athletes, but they did have shooters. Give me five players on the floor that can flat shoot the ball and I will beat your ass. Even if they are not great athletes. Wouldn't surprise me if TJD transfered next year, you really couldn't blame him.

That's my two cents

[BobSaccamanno]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Without a doubt but our fans don't realize what our reputation is on the national level.

I agree with this.  The prestige really fell off under Glass.  When he came in you could argue we went through an understandable adjustment period.  But, under Glass the prestige has nosedived.  It’s not that we were adjusting.  We’ve leveled off as an also-ran.  Glass more than anybody is to blame for the fall in prestige for Indiana basketball.  

The next AD hire is crucial.  I know what I’m looking for.  I suspect that the Board and McRobbie are unqualified to make a good call here.  

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Developing coaches like those guys are different.  I remember when they were young and they were HIGHLY regarded.  There’s simply no evidence that Archie is in that category.   Those guys took time to develop which is different from sucking. No one thought they were struggling.  You’re a nice guy but this isn’t sound analysis.  

We were 12-2 last year and the staff was helpless despite having Romeo and Juwan.  Adjustments were lacking.  If anyone read this board, there were plenty of well thought out adjustments that people proposed.  Yet our staff mostly decided to stay with the plan, with catastrophic results.  

Today’s loss should never, ever have happened.  I don’t think even Mike Davis, who was a rank amateur, would have lost this game.  For all his follies, he understood valuing the ball.  

The next AD is an important guy.  We need forward thinking, not somebody thinking in the past.  We also need a dynamic guy with outside thinking who can be persuasive with the higher ups in the administration and Board.

We don’t necessarily need an IU guy.  I have no idea who are assistant ADs at places like Duke and Kansas but I’d take a look at people with know how as to how to  positively run basketball.  I like IU football as much as most, but B-ball will always butter the bread here.  It’s good business for the school to fix it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why was Archie considered the best young coaching candidate when we hired him if he sucked.  Like I aid before I did not like the hire of Archie but is  way to early to be having a conversation about a new coach.  I use to think that the IU fan base were the smartest and the best fans in the country but now I think we are just like anyone else.

[IUCrazy2]

14 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Again who are you going to hire if we make a change this year.

Year is not over, I am not throwing in towel yet, but if we miss the tournament again, he should be fired.  Get an interim if you have to.

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

But that's the thing though. You could sell Beard. I don't know how you do it. I'm not an AD nor a saleman, but you back up the Brinks truck, sell him on the history of Indiana basketball, tell him what he did at Texas Tech last year is the best he's going to get and sell him on becoming a legend. That's the sell. Whether you or I believe that can be solid is irrelevant, you need to find an AD and  President that CAN sell it. 

Well since he is from the RMK coaching tree do you think he would come here 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I agree with this.  The prestige really fell off under Glass.  When he came in you could argue we went through an understandable adjustment period.  But, under Glass the prestige has nosedived.  It’s not that we were adjusting.  We’ve leveled off as an also-ran.  Glass more than anybody is to blame for the fall in prestige for Indiana basketball.  

The next AD hire is crucial.  I know what I’m looking for.  I suspect that the Board and McRobbie are unqualified to make a good call here.  

Our basketball program started the path in 1995 way before Glass got here

[HoosierDom]

2 minutes ago, Let said:

Green is just never gonna learn, he will continue to make STUPID PASSES AND PLAY OUT OF CONTROL!!!! It's to bad because he can shoot. I say CUT him. When Archie made that made substitution in the first half, I knew we were in trouble. I still don't think Brunk is any good but he is the second best we have underneath. Leave him and TJD IN THE GAME. Durham pulled a really stupid trick, tell him one more and your DONE! Nothing against Archie, from what I've seen he's probably as good as anyone we could hire. Somehow, he has got to find some players who can shoot the ball. Last year Purdue didn't have great athletes, but they did have shooters. Give me five players on the floor that can flat shoot the ball and I will beat your ass. Even if they are not great athletes. Wouldn't surprise me if TJD transfered next year, you really couldn't blame him.

That's my two cents

Insane. 

Durham elbowed a man he never saw. It was a stupid play, but it was a long way from getting kicked off the team.

Green is the one guy on our team that can shoot. He made a lot of bad plays, but he didn't shoot all that poorly, not great, but not terrible.

We need guards to mature. If Phinisee and Franklin improve as much in the next year as Durham did in the last year, we will have a solid back court. 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Year is not over, I am not throwing in towel yet, but if we miss the to 

That is a great idea to bring in an interim which should really help recruiting LOL!  I will give him 4 years and if we are still here then I will be all in for a new coach

[hoosiermd]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Then why was Archie considered the best young coaching candidate when we hired him if he sucked.  Like I aid before I did not like the hire of Archie but is  way to early to be having a conversation about a new coach.  I use to think that the IU fan base were the smartest and the best fans in the country but now I think we are just like anyone else.

I disagree here too. I think our fanbase is the best fanbase and the smartest (admittedly biased of course!) but living through Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson, Dan Dakich, Tom Crean, and Myles Brand can make you absolutely crazy and that is what I think is happening here in Indiana. 

Right or wrong, the expectations should be championships. At the very least Big 10 championships. There is something about Indiana that says a good coach should be able to construct a basketball team well and win games by high IQ basketball and high IQ players playing sound fundamental basketball. 

I think we've been talking about coaching acumen and roster construction going on 20 years now. Think about the board right now. What do people generally complain about:

1. Pack line defense
2. We can't shoot
3. We have bad guard play

Isn't #1 a coaching issue? Isn't #2/#3 a roster construction issue? Miller can't figure out in game decisions in year 3? Everyone is complaining about how how IQ DG played tonight or how the team abandoned going inside which we had a significant advantage against on overmatched and undersized squad. WE WERE EVEN PLAYING AT HOME WITH A WEEK TO PREPARE!!!! 

Who is the fall guy from that? Half the high school coaches in Indiana wouldn't be dealing with the same issues that we are dealing with in Game #3.

Who's at fault?

[Zlinedavid]

 

[hoosiermd]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well since he is from the RMK coaching tree do you think he would come here 

Don't you at least have to try? Don't you at least have to put out backdoor feelers there? Especially given where we are? 

[BobSaccamanno]

6 minutes ago, JugRox said:

Miller is 41 years old. I don’t think he is done improving.
 

IU was one win away from the NCAA last year. That’s not “helpless”. And they are currently 11-2.

And you are seriously comparing Mike Davis to Miller? 

They were helpless in figuring out how to get out of an 11 out of 12 rut. 

I did not think Davis was qualified. Yet, sadly, Archie hasn’t remotely accomplished anything resembling what  Davis has.  You’re misguided if you think Archie has proven otherwise.  I am not going to take the position that Davis was good.  Yet, Archie has not done a $&:; thing beyond Davis.  That’s damning.  

And Archie has ought to get used to it.  You coach like Dale Brown, as he did today, and there will be a fever pitch.  We played an all 6’5 league team and he allowed his team to blow a ten point lead at home with wild shooting early in the shot clock and asinine ball handling and stupid bounce passes in traffic.  

You can blame the players, but as outrageously dumb as the play was, you have to wonder what is going on in practice with teaching smart play.  

This was not a ho him, run of the mill loss. 

[JugRox]

1 minute ago, hoosiermd said:

Don't you at least have to try? Don't you at least have to put out backdoor feelers there? Especially given where we are? 

Thank god some of you aren’t the AD.... lol

[IU Scott]

Just now, hoosiermd said:

I disagree here too. I think our fanbase is the best fanbase and the smartest (admittedly biased of course!) but living through Mike Davis, Kelvin Sampson, Dan Dakich, Tom Crean, and Myles Brand can make you absolutely crazy and that is what I think is happening here in Indiana. 

Right or wrong, the expectations should be championships. At the very least Big 10 championships. There is something about Indiana that says a good coach should be able to construct a basketball team well and win games by high IQ basketball and high IQ players playing sound fundamental basketball. 

I think we've been talking about coaching acumen and roster construction going on 20 years now. Think about the board right now. What do people generally complain about:

1. Pack line defense
2. We can't shoot
3. We have bad guard play

Isn't #1 a coaching issue? Isn't #2/#3 a roster construction issue? Miller can't figure out in game decisions in year 3? Everyone is complaining about how how IQ DG played tonight or how the team abandoned going inside which we had a significant advantage against on overmatched and undersized squad. WE WERE EVEN PLAYING AT HOME WITH A WEEK TO PREPARE!!!! 

Who is the fall guy from that? Half the high school coaches in Indiana wouldn't be dealing with the same issues that we are dealing with in Game #3.

Who's at fault?

I never said that championships should not be the goal but I don't think we should put the last 25 years on Archie.  I just think the conversation of a new coach 2.5 years in is just dumb and pre mature.  If they run the defense correctly then I don't see a problem with the pack line defense and UVA won a championship with it last year.  I agree that DG played out of control but who would be the answer off of our bench at that time.  AL was out of the game and Franklin was playing as bad as DG.

[BobSaccamanno]

6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Our basketball program started the path in 1995 way before Glass got here

1995-2000 was far more consistent than anything Glass presided over.  And in that period we built our excellent 2002 team. Glass would be drooling to have that kind of success. 

[JugRox]

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

They were helpless in figuring out how to get out of an 11 out of 12 rut. 

I did not think Davis was qualified. Yet, sadly, Archie hasn’t remotely accomplished anything resembling what  Davis has.  You’re misguided if you think Archie has proven otherwise.  I am not going to take the position that Davis was good.  Yet, Archie has not done a $&:; thing beyond Davis.  That’s damning.  

And Archie has ought to get used to it.  You coach like Dale Brown, as he did today, and there will be a fever pitch.  We played an all 6’5 league team and he allowed his team to blow a ten point lead at home with wild shooting early in the shot clock and asinine ball handling and stupid bounce passes in traffic.  

You can blame the players, but as outrageously dumb as the play was, you have to wonder what is going on in practice with teaching smart play.  

This was not a ho him, run of the mill loss. 

LOL

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

Don't you at least have to try? Don't you at least have to put out backdoor feelers there? Especially given where we are? 

Not after just 2.5 years

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

That is a great idea to bring in an interim which should really help recruiting LOL!  I will give him 4 years and if we are still here then I will be all in for a new coach

Interim so we have new Pres and AD in place.  We need new approach from top down.  The University needs on board with what it takes to win.

If we miss tournament this year, Miller is a lame duck anyway.  He is toast, just a matter of time at that point.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Interim so we have new Pres and AD in place.  We need new approach from top down.  The University needs on board with what it takes to win.

If we miss tournament this year, Miller is a lame duck anyway.  He is toast, just a matter of time at that point.

Like I have said that some very good coaches took more than 3 years to get established so why not let it play out to see if Archie can do it.  Our fans turning on the program after 2.5 years does nothing but hurt the program.

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, JugRox said:

LOL

We could could continue in irrelevance like you want.  Take a position. Tell us why we are great and that today was a good sign as to why it’s ok to blow a ten point lead against an undermanned team at home with Dale Brown level helplessness.