Boiler Sam Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 Sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but have been rewatching Last Dance episodes leading up to the finale, and I just noticed something I missed the first time through: in the summer of 1984, before he had played a single NBA game, Bob Knight said Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player he had ever seen. Obviously that has proven to be true, but to make that observation at that time about a kid who had just gotten drafted, when Bird and Magic were at the peak of their powers, is pretty remarkable in retrospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 I was going to start a topic on the docuseries after I watched the last 2 episodes today, so thanks for starting it...interesting subject... I thought the opinion of Ken Burns on the series was interesting... "In Burns’s view, Jordan and his production company exerting influence over the process made it impossible to do the “good journalism” that documentaries require. Episodes 7 and 8, in particular, gave Jordan the final word on his harsh treatment of teammates and his take on Gary Payton defending him in the 1996 NBA Finals." So far, it's been part history, part Jordan puff piece in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 Thought this was an interesting response to last night. Especially way down in the article regarding Jordan and cigar cutting incident. I haven't watched series completely yet. Being a diehard Cubs/Bears fans people always assume I cheered for the Bulls. Nothing could be further from the truth. Grew up Lakers fan and always cheered for Pacers and of course Isiah. In a way I almost despised the Bulls. Jordan is/was the greatest but watching some of the series brings back some painful memories. Especially the 98 Pacers series. https://abc7chicago.com/sports/did-1998-have-to-be-the-last-dance-for-michael-jordans-bulls/6192738/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegrassIU Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: I was going to start a topic on the docuseries after I watched the last 2 episodes today, so thanks for starting it...interesting subject... I thought the opinion of Ken Burns on the series was interesting... "In Burns’s view, Jordan and his production company exerting influence over the process made it impossible to do the “good journalism” that documentaries require. Episodes 7 and 8, in particular, gave Jordan the final word on his harsh treatment of teammates and his take on Gary Payton defending him in the 1996 NBA Finals." So far, it's been part history, part Jordan puff piece in my opinion... You have to take it for what it is. I was listening to Clay Travis this morning. He had an interesting take. He said something to the effect that this is the new way to write an autobiography. If this was all in a book by Michael Jordan, we would view it as his story in his words. This documentary was basically that, in visual form. Viewing it through that prism, it is very entertaining and very enlightening. Also, cleary his version of how things happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 18, 2020 Report Share Posted May 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said: If this was all in a book by Michael Jordan, we would view it as his story in his words. This documentary was basically that, in visual form. I think that was exactly Burns' point. It cannot be an autobiography and a documentary at the same time if you're being honest. A documentary simply lays out the facts and let's the audience draw their own conclusions. The very fact that MJs production company had a hand in content makes it, as you say, a visual autobiography. They control what to put in, and what to leave out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 20, 2020 Report Share Posted May 20, 2020 Well, finished watching it...the last 2 episodes are highlight films as far as I'm concerned... And I really didn't learn much from the whole series... I knew Jerry Krause was hated by the players and Phil Jackson. What I couldn't believe is the amount of personal crap he took from the players, especially MJ. I would have never let another man say things like he did to my face without things coming to a head. Actually lowered my view of both men. I actually thought it was funny the way MJ spoke about Gary Payton. He wasn't about to raise Payton's ire...Gary Payton, at least to me, has always been one of those guys that you don't mess with...and if you do, he's gonna make something of it... For me, it was more of a review than a primer...I still don't think Michael Jordan is "the greatest basketball player ever." Don't get me wrong...He was great...a competitor with few equals... But I truly wish his prime (as well as the Bulls at full strenght...with Pippen especially) and the primes of Magic, Bird, and Thomas had coincided...if he'd won 6 titles during that time, I might feel differently about his status as the GOAT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 20, 2020 Report Share Posted May 20, 2020 28 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Well, finished watching it...the last 2 episodes are highlight films as far as I'm concerned... And I really didn't learn much from the whole series... I knew Jerry Krause was hated by the players and Phil Jackson. What I couldn't believe is the amount of personal crap he took from the players, especially MJ. I would have never let another man say things like he did to my face without things coming to a head. Actually lowered my view of both men. I actually thought it was funny the way MJ spoke about Gary Payton. He wasn't about to raise Payton's ire...Gary Payton, at least to me, has always been one of those guys that you don't mess with...and if you do, he's gonna make something of it... For me, it was more of a review than a primer...I still don't think Michael Jordan is "the greatest basketball player ever." Don't get me wrong...He was great...a competitor with few equals... But I truly wish his prime (as well as the Bulls at full strenght...with Pippen especially) and the primes of Magic, Bird, and Thomas had coincided...if he'd won 6 titles during that time, I might feel differently about his status as the GOAT... Haven't watched yet but pretty easy to keep up with via twitter what's going on. One thing I think gets shuffled away is the risk to a legacy a show like this can do. Most people usually stick to whatever side they are on. Is he the greatest is he not,etc...but when you open up the door to criticism it potentially can really hurt your legacy. Hypocrisy around Thomas, Pizza Gate...now Horace Grant coming out yesterday calling Jordan basically a liar. All stories that can taint a legacy. I guess in one respect I commend Jordan for taking the chance to have his legacy criticized. To your point though about primes. People forget that Zeke was 36-29 in regular season vs Jordan and beat him 3 out 4 playoff series. Jordan fans will say yeah but he wasn't and team wasn't in prime,etc....and I say yes. Don't criticize Zeke for what he did in early to mid 80's though going up against Magic/Bird because he was dealing with same thing (i.e. team not ready). Guess that's sports and the debate in sports which goes on forever. Overall I still believe Jordan is the greatest. It's been a fun series during a time when people are clamoring for anything. Few more coming soon. Lance Armstrong, Sosa/Mark home run chase is the one I'll be watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 21, 2020 Report Share Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/20/2020 at 7:29 AM, Seeking6 said: now Horace Grant coming out yesterday calling Jordan basically a liar. All stories that can taint a legacy. Seems Horace isn't the only one that's upset... Seems Scottie Pippen may have an issue with it too... MJ is portrayed as the ultimate Alpha in the show (no, I'm not gonna call it a "documentary") but as Horace Grant said, "It wasn't real because a lot of things Jordan said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But that was edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 21, 2020 Report Share Posted May 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Seems Horace isn't the only one that's upset... Seems Scottie Pippen may have an issue with it too... MJ is portrayed as the ultimate Alpha in the show (no, I'm not gonna call it a "documentary") but as Horace Grant said, "It wasn't real because a lot of things Jordan said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But that was edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary." Yep. Jordan has a long list of former players/friends who at some point crossed him and they aren't welcomed any longer in his club. This is another example of documentaries like this that can backfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted May 21, 2020 Report Share Posted May 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Yep. Jordan has a long list of former players/friends who at some point crossed him and they aren't welcomed any longer in his club. This is another example of documentaries like this that can backfire. I'd read that Charles Barkley was another former "friend" on the outside looking in... I'm not sure if MJ thinks not talking things out and holding grudges makes him the "ultimate competitor" but to me it makes him look like an 8th grade Valley Girl. Men talk stuff out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 21, 2020 Report Share Posted May 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I'd read that Charles Barkley was another former "friend" on the outside looking in... I'm not sure if MJ thinks not talking things out and holding grudges makes him the "ultimate competitor" but to me it makes him look like an 8th grade Valley Girl. Men talk stuff out... You would certainly hope so although plenty think it's some sort of admission of weakness or whatever. I'm waiting for Phil to come out with some bombshell eventually....if they can find him in Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiler Sam Posted May 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Seeking6 said: Yep. Jordan has a long list of former players/friends who at some point crossed him and they aren't welcomed any longer in his club. This is another example of documentaries like this that can backfire. Hmmm... that sounds vaguely familiar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblaz13 Posted May 24, 2020 Report Share Posted May 24, 2020 The Last Dance brought back a lot of memories here. When it sparked the "early years" fan comments with conversations and debates about the great 1980s NBA cores and where the Bulls fit in before the winning supporting cast was built around Jordan , and little to no time is spent talking about the 86-87 or 87-88 Mavs ….I roll my eyes. Having followed the Lakers my entire life, I vividly recall how good then, and how underappreciated those Mavs teams are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted May 24, 2020 Report Share Posted May 24, 2020 i thought the series was pretty good. not great. i hated how it jumped around timeline was for no reason. i thought that made it tough to follow. i am not and never have been a Jordan fan, but i do believe with absolutely no doubt that he is the GOAT. i don't think he is a good guy at all, but that's okay. i don't really have a problem with how he talked to teammates and wasn't really surprised. other than that and i guess the Rodman stuff if you didn't already know about it, i don't think it was all that exciting. my boys are basketball junkies and one lost interest and didn't finish and the other watched, but didn't like it as much as he thought he would. he is into bball history and loved the Lakers/Celtics 30/30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiler Sam Posted May 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 3:05 AM, jblaz13 said: The Last Dance brought back a lot of memories here. When it sparked the "early years" fan comments with conversations and debates about the great 1980s NBA cores and where the Bulls fit in before the winning supporting cast was built around Jordan , and little to no time is spent talking about the 86-87 or 87-88 Mavs ….I roll my eyes. Having followed the Lakers my entire life, I vividly recall how good then, and how underappreciated those Mavs teams are now. I lived in Texas in the 80s and followed those Mavericks teams. Mark Aguirre, Rolando Blackman, Derek Harper, Sam Perkins, Dale Ellis, James Donaldson.... and of course the troubled Roy Tarpley. Those teams were fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 5/20/2020 at 6:52 AM, IUFLA said: Well, finished watching it...the last 2 episodes are highlight films as far as I'm concerned... And I really didn't learn much from the whole series... I knew Jerry Krause was hated by the players and Phil Jackson. What I couldn't believe is the amount of personal crap he took from the players, especially MJ. I would have never let another man say things like he did to my face without things coming to a head. Actually lowered my view of both men. I actually thought it was funny the way MJ spoke about Gary Payton. He wasn't about to raise Payton's ire...Gary Payton, at least to me, has always been one of those guys that you don't mess with...and if you do, he's gonna make something of it... For me, it was more of a review than a primer...I still don't think Michael Jordan is "the greatest basketball player ever." Don't get me wrong...He was great...a competitor with few equals... But I truly wish his prime (as well as the Bulls at full strenght...with Pippen especially) and the primes of Magic, Bird, and Thomas had coincided...if he'd won 6 titles during that time, I might feel differently about his status as the GOAT... Agree on his playing prime days not coinciding with those others.IT got the best of him early and of course MJ, in a genuinely petty move, made sure IT was not on that all-time great Olympics team. MJ is legitimately in the discussion as the goat - but he’s not mine either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUguy Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Just give me a team with MJ, Kobe, Russell, Malone and Kareem. I wll take on LeBron and anyone else with those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUguy Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Maybe add either Stockton or Isiah as PG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUguy Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 Just now, IUguy said: Maybe add either Stockton or Isiah as PG. But to stay on topic, there is no way Lebron is GOAT. Certainly Jordan above him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted May 25, 2020 Report Share Posted May 25, 2020 2 hours ago, IUguy said: But to stay on topic, there is no way Lebron is GOAT. Certainly Jordan above him. MJ is by far the best player and Lebron would barely make my top 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 1 hour ago, IU Scott said: MJ is by far the best player and Lebron would barely make my top 5 MJ is arguably the best player ever. I still believe Larry Bird should be #1,at least #2. Larry was a bit slow as a snail white boy from southern indiana, but Larry was tough as nails(I've met larry btw) and a fighter, but to take an undefeated ISU team, well Carl Nicks too, the NCAA CHAMPIONSHIP GAME in 79, a MAC team against 1979 MSU Jue Heathcote Cheater. ISU should have won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblaz13 Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 17 hours ago, Boiler Sam said: I lived in Texas in the 80s and followed those Mavericks teams. Mark Aguirre, Rolando Blackman, Derek Harper, Sam Perkins, Dale Ellis, James Donaldson.... and of course the troubled Roy Tarpley. Those teams were fun to watch. Then you were fortunate! I always wondered if the Pistons ever come to be as we knew them if Tarpley didn't have the off-court issues.Does that directly affect Aguire, Schrempf or Ellis being willing to move? Aguire was dead serious about winning. Hard to imagine him being unaware of s9me form of cancerous presence on the roster. Guys who put the partying before the winning push people who could have held the core togetger and helped round them out to take the next step. For that reason , I always felt they were a destination team at the time had Tarpley made better decisions.The Lakers were headed into decline regardless. The Mavs fell as fast as their rise from the pack was. Anyway Speculation for fun nothing more. Did you get to go to home games? If so, who were you most impressed with from up close? Always been aware of the difference in the actual speed with top talent having played with guys I also watched on TV a few times. .Curious what you tbought about specifc players while actually following them whether you went to gamea or not.I didn't follow them but it was hard to miss. I can admit they possibly even win it with Tarpley as he was had they beaten LA.I vivdly recall being a worried Lakers fan kid that year. Haha Magic is my favorite player ever and the repeat was a prediction with the buddies at school .Grade school reputations were on the line.LOL I feel like Ralphie from A Christmas Story even telling about it.Thanks for replying too Boiler Sam! Good to see you still here even though things have mostly been limited to off the field hindsight and predictions for most sports. Rival fandom considered and all. I admit to not getting to follow Alford or Ewe Blab since I had one bedtime and my last hours awake most nights were all going to IU , LA , or my Atari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 13 hours ago, IUguy said: Maybe add either Stockton or Isiah as PG. Magic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euroclydon Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 To the victor go the spoils. MJ was top dog on a six time champ/dynasty. He gets to write the history. ESPN wants to keep MJ close and happy. What are the odds they would have presented it in any other light or allow anyone other than MJ to have the last word? I'll still go with Jabbar as the greatest all time and point out MJ's teams only ascended once the Celtics and Detroit aged out. I believe MJ ended up 11 - 23 (0 - 6 playoffs) against Bird's Celtics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted May 26, 2020 Report Share Posted May 26, 2020 i thought it was interesting how worried MJ was about how it would make him look. i am not a fan, but didn't really think it made him look bad. i am also curious why Pippen is upset? sure, the stuff about him quitting in that game. that's fact though and there's no excuse for that and it's really weird that he said he'd do it again. other than that, they make him look like he was underrated. they make Krause look like a buffoon. they make it look like they couldn't have done any of it without him. they make him look like he toughed through a back injury. what is he upset about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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