Jump to content

Welcome to Hoosier Sports Nation | Indiana Basketball and Sports Forum

Welcome to HoosierSportsNation 3.0 -- our newest and best iteration.  We promise we won't bite -- come on in and register to join the party!


The Daily Hoosier

New approach/offense in 2020-21

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Yes, we’re not going to be that good. That was a great team and was in an era where for the most part upperclassmen stayed, which isn’t the case in this day and age. But, IU does have talent and if some guys develop and stay healthy, has a chance to be one of the better, more talented Big Ten teams. 

I think our talent level could potentially get us into the upper half of the conference. That would be a plus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sark said:

I think our talent level could potentially get us into the upper half of the conference. That would be a plus.

We have the potential to have the talent to finish top 3, but as I mentioned a few times it’s going to take so,e key returners in Phinisee, Hunter, Franklin and Race not only making a leap, and they have the talent to do it, but also staying healthy. 

If those guys develop and stay healthy, that’s a solid, solid core to have around two 5*’s. How many Big Ten teams have two 5*’s on their roster?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2020 at 11:17 AM, Sark said:

Quicker? Maybe, because of Lander. But not really any more athletic. We’re just shifting to more three guard line ups because we really don’t have any choice. We can’t score, so something will have to give. Losing our best defender will only make that defensive loss hurt even more, and we’ll be painfully thin up front. Race can’t guard the perimeter consistently well, and we don’t want him out there. If he is, we’re in trouble. As I said, Miller must jump start the offense. He has no choice or we’re going to spend another year in the bottom half of the conference. It’s just a matter of how much defense he’s willing to give up to get that done. 

I am very curious how you define athleticism and which players we lost that you find to be more athletic than the player who replaced them/their minutes. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2020 at 9:47 PM, BGleas said:

We have the potential to have the talent to finish top 3, but as I mentioned a few times it’s going to take so,e key returners in Phinisee, Hunter, Franklin and Race not only making a leap, and they have the talent to do it, but also staying healthy.

Agreed. But one of the unknowns is chemistry (which I don't think will be a problem), and the other unknown is confidence. I'm a little (not a lot) concerned that our confidence as a team, is not where it needs to be. We need guys in the locker room, and on the floor that tells the rest of the team, "we ain't losin'. It's time to kick some butt. Don't just compete...dominate!"

At least that's what I wish for.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I am very curious how you define athleticism and which players we lost that you find to be more athletic than the player who replaced them/their minutes. 

We lost probably the most athletic player on the team and our best defender and three other guys, one of whom played a lot, another of whom played some, and the last of whom played sparingly. They’ll be replaced by four newcomers, only one of whom is likely to log significant minutes. I know Miller wants us to “get older”, but we really just got younger, which means we took a big step back in experience. You almost always pay a near term price for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Sark said:

We lost probably the most athletic player on the team and our best defender and three other guys, one of whom played a lot, another of whom played some, and the last of whom played sparingly. They’ll be replaced by four newcomers, only one of whom is likely to log significant minutes. I know Miller wants us to “get older”, but we really just got younger, which means we took a big step back in experience. You almost always pay a near term price for that.

How are you defining athleticism? Smith definitely had the highest vertical, but he wasn't the fastest, quickest, strongest, etc... Smith also is not as athletic as the guy replacing his spot on the roster. 

The rest of your point does nothing to address what I asked. 

I also don't agree that we got younger. I think we got older; we have one freshman who will play significant minutes, one who will be a roleplayer and the other two will likely play sparingly. Pretty much ever player who will log over 20 minutes per game, with the exception of Lander and TJ, is in at least their third year of being in a college basketball program. That was not the case last year.

Edited by KoB2011
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

How are you defining athleticism? Smith definitely had the highest vertical, but he wasn't the fastest, quickest, strongest, etc... Smith also is not as athletic as the guy replacing his spot on the roster. 

The rest of your point does nothing to address what I asked. 

I also don't agree that we got younger. I think we got older; we have one freshman who will play significant minutes, one who will be a roleplayer and the other two will likely play sparingly. Pretty much ever player who will log over 20 minutes per game, with the exception of Lander and TJ, is in at least their third year of being in a college basketball program. That was not the case last year.

Who says Smith isn’t as athletic as the guy replacing his spot?  
 

As for getting younger, we have four first year players, and one of them should be a senior in high school. Only one of them is likely to contribute much in the coming year. Purely on that basis, we got younger. And increasing minutes per player, which isn’t likely in Miller’s system, will wear us out in what promises to be a very difficult Big Ten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have gotten younger.  True.  And while there is no substitute for experience.... two other bb truths hold true :

1. There is no substitute for height.

2. There is no substitute for talent.

GO HOOSIERS !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sark said:

Who says Smith isn’t as athletic as the guy replacing his spot?  
 

As for getting younger, we have four first year players, and one of them should be a senior in high school. Only one of them is likely to contribute much in the coming year. Purely on that basis, we got younger. And increasing minutes per player, which isn’t likely in Miller’s system, will wear us out in what promises to be a very difficult Big Ten.

Well, I said it for one. Other than having a higher vertical (maybe), what about Smith is more athletic than Geronimo? 

You're flat out wrong on the experience thing. We return a higher percentage of minutes played this year than we did last year and a higher percentage of our points. These are indisputable facts. 

That doesn't even get into the fact that the total experience of those returning minutes and points is a lot more than last year had. For instance, Phinisee made up a higher percentage of returning minutes and points on last years team, but he has more experience this year than he did last year. We have our best player and leading scorer returning this year, that wasn't true last year. We have a guy who will likely surpass 100 career starts on this years team, that wasn't true last year. I'm not sure what you could possibly be basing the fact that you think we are younger on.... it certainly isn't based on reality. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Well, I said it for one. Other than having a higher vertical (maybe), what about Smith is more athletic than Geronimo? 

You're flat out wrong on the experience thing. We return a higher percentage of minutes played this year than we did last year and a higher percentage of our points. These are indisputable facts. 

That doesn't even get into the fact that the total experience of those returning minutes and points is a lot more than last year had. For instance, Phinisee made up a higher percentage of returning minutes and points on last years team, but he has more experience this year than he did last year. We have our best player and leading scorer returning this year, that wasn't true last year. We have a guy who will likely surpass 100 career starts on this years team, that wasn't true last year. I'm not sure what you could possibly be basing the fact that you think we are younger on.... it certainly isn't based on reality. 

What makes Geronimo more athletic than Smith? There’s nothing to support that, unless you’re referring to a picture taken of him after a month with Cliff. 

The team got younger. That’s indisputable, no matter how much you want to ignore that. A third of the team is new, including one player who should be entering his senior year of high school. Not sure why you continue to deny these facts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Sark said:

What makes Geronimo more athletic than Smith? There’s nothing to support that, unless you’re referring to a picture taken of him after a month with Cliff. 

The team got younger. That’s indisputable, no matter how much you want to ignore that. A third of the team is new, including one player who should be entering his senior year of high school. Not sure why you continue to deny these facts.

 

I didn't say he was more athletic, I said he was as athletic. You made the claim that Smith was a superior athlete, you are the one who needs to back it up. 

The team didn't get younger. There is no amount of data that will back that point up. Last year the team also had newcomers, this is probably going to be the case every single year. It's a reality of college athletics. That doesn't mean you get younger every year. 

Last years team lost our two top scorers and minutes played guys, and 4 of our top 10 from those two categories. This years team returns two of our top three minutes guy, our leading scorer, two of our top four scorers and has a guy who will crack 100 starts this year. No one on last years team cracked 100 starts. 

I promise people will respect you more if you can look at the objective facts and say, "yeah, my initial perception about the experience level of the team this year vs. last year was wrong."

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I didn't say he was more athletic, I said he was as athletic. You made the claim that Smith was a superior athlete, you are the one who needs to back it up. 

The team didn't get younger. There is no amount of data that will back that point up. Last year the team also had newcomers, this is probably going to be the case every single year. It's a reality of college athletics. That doesn't mean you get younger every year. 

Last years team lost our two top scorers and minutes played guys, and 4 of our top 10 from those two categories. This years team returns two of our top three minutes guy, our leading scorer, two of our top four scorers and has a guy who will crack 100 starts this year. No one on last years team cracked 100 starts. 

I promise people will respect you more if you can look at the objective facts and say, "yeah, my initial perception about the experience level of the team this year vs. last year was wrong."

You claimed Geronimo is as athletic . . . there’s no proof of that whatsoever. A picture has you badly fooled. The team got younger. That’s indisputable. You can continue to deny the facts, but it just weakens your argument further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, milehiiu said:

We have gotten younger.  True.  And while there is no substitute for experience.... two other bb truths hold true :

1. There is no substitute for height.

2. There is no substitute for talent.

GO HOOSIERS !

Still don't see how we are getting younger.  Yes we have 4 freshman but only one is expected to play significant minutes.

Brunk- 5th year senior

Al- Senior

Race- 4th year junior

RP- Junior

Hunter- 3rd year sophomore

TJD- sophomore but played huge minutes as a freshman

Franklin- sophomore you played some meaningfull minutes as a freshman

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Sark said:

You claimed Geronimo is as athletic . . . there’s no proof of that whatsoever. A picture has you badly fooled. The team got younger. That’s indisputable. You can continue to deny the facts, but it just weakens your argument further.

There's no proof either way, but you're the one who made the first claim. Prove your point or stop spewing BS...

And we didn't get younger. There is actual data on this and it says otherwise. We return more minutes and more points. How exactly is that younger? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Still don't see how we are getting younger.  Yes we have 4 freshman but only one is expected to play significant minutes.

Brunk- 5th year senior

Al- Senior

Race- 4th year junior

RP- Junior

Hunter- 3rd year sophomore

TJD- sophomore but played huge minutes as a freshman

Franklin- sophomore you played some meaningfull minutes as a freshman

You're correct, we did not get younger. It is an objective fact that we return more minutes and more points this year than we did last year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

You're correct, we did not get younger. It is an objective fact that we return more minutes and more points this year than we did last year. 

Arguing with him only gives him what he wants and that is attention.

Edited by IU Scott
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

There's no proof either way, but you're the one who made the first claim. Prove your point or stop spewing BS...

And we didn't get younger. There is actual data on this and it says otherwise. We return more minutes and more points. How exactly is that younger? 

Returning more minutes and points doesn’t mean we also didn’t get younger. Lol. We lost four upper class men and replaced them with four freshmen, one of whom should be a senior in high school. You’re really straining to make an invalid point. And you’re the one who made the claims about athletic ability that you can’t prove, all based on a picture and highlight tapes. In fact, you specifically said Smith’s replacement was more athletic than JS, then you tried to deny it. Lol

Edited by Sark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We lost 4 players in Smith, Green, Davis and Green who combined for 26.5 ppg while playing around 60 minutes a game.  Two of them graduated and Smith transferred with one year left and Anderson had two left.  This is how I look at it that Lander will replace the minutes and scoring that Green did last year.  Yes he is a freshman but he seems like at this time more of a team player who can also get others involved.  Hopefully he will be a lot better of a teammate than what Green seemed to have been.  I think Hunter and Geronimo will more than be able to duplicate or even surpass what Smith gave us last year.  Hunter will be in his 3rd year at IU so he is only one year younger than Smith and brings better shooting which we need.  To me Race will totally surpass anything that Davis gave us last year and this will be Races 4th year in the system.  As for losing Anderson it is obvious he was not in the future plans of Archie so replacing him with Lea and Galloway seems to be step up.

Looking at the roster we had 3 Scholarship players last year who were considered freshman one being a redshirt compared to having 4 this year so that is not much of a difference.  Last year we had two scholarship players who were seniors in green and Davis and this year we have have a redshirt senior in Brunk and another senior in Al.  So to me to me you say we are a lot younger this year is just not a fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Sark said:

Returning more minutes and points doesn’t mean we also didn’t get younger. Lol. We lost four upper class men and replaced them with four freshmen, one of whom should be a senior in high school. You’re really straining to make an invalid point. And you’re the one who made the claims about athletic ability that you can’t prove, all based on a picture and highlight tapes. It makes no sense no matter how often you try to say it.

Returning more minutes and points doesn't mean we didn't get younger? Maybe, but it certainly means we return more experience than last years team had. If your point was literally about their biological age and not experience, then your point has been irrelevant the entire time you've been struggling to make it.  Doesn't almost every team every year lose upperclassmen and replace them with freshman. Does that mean every team gets younger? No one talks about experience in the terms you're trying to frame it in. What objective data would convince you that we didn't get younger, or more importantly less experienced, if not for returning more minutes and points? 

You certainly are the one who brought up athleticism, not me. If we aren't basing it on things we can see like quickness, vertical, speed, strength, etc., then what should we base it on? Believe it or not, I don't care about the picture that was recently posted. You had numerous posts about it before I posted in this thread, and my first post was asking you to clarify what you meant. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This argument is asinine. The team can be younger than last season but still not be considered a young team. 

Last year's team graduated 2 seniors and lost to transfer a rising senior and a rising junior. Incoming are 4 freshman. 

Returning are players with a lot of experience. 2 upperclassmen with redshirt years. A redshirt sophomore (although Hunter's redshirt year didn't help him he is still old for his class now). A rising junior with 2 years of starting experience. A rising sophomore whip started all of last year while playing almost 30mpg.

So I'd say the team is younger with 15 seasons of experience returning versus 17 from last season. Neither of those count Hunter's redshirt season but if anyone wants to count that it doesn't change the difference between the two. Next year's team, while slightly "younger" will also be returning over 140 mpg versus 136 last season.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

This argument is asinine. The team can be younger than last season but still not be considered a young team. 

Last year's team graduated 2 seniors and lost to transfer a rising senior and a rising junior. Incoming are 4 freshman. 

Returning are players with a lot of experience. 2 upperclassmen with redshirt years. A redshirt sophomore (although Hunter's redshirt year didn't help him he is still old for his class now). A rising junior with 2 years of starting experience. A rising sophomore whip started all of last year while playing almost 30mpg.

So I'd say the team is younger with 15 seasons of experience returning versus 17 from last season. Neither of those count Hunter's redshirt season but if anyone wants to count that it doesn't change the difference between the two. Next year's team, while slightly "younger" will also be returning over 140 mpg versus 136 last season.

I would also point out that those 136 minutes returning for last season were skewed by Anderson and his almost 10 mpg average. His effective mpg was more like 1/2 that since he had a bunch of DNPCD. Also, Durham and Phinisee had more mpg the session before than they had last season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Returning more minutes and points doesn't mean we didn't get younger? Maybe, but it certainly means we return more experience than last years team had. If your point was literally about their biological age and not experience, then your point has been irrelevant the entire time you've been struggling to make it.  Doesn't almost every team every year lose upperclassmen and replace them with freshman. Does that mean every team gets younger? No one talks about experience in the terms you're trying to frame it in. What objective data would convince you that we didn't get younger, or more importantly less experienced, if not for returning more minutes and points? 

You certainly are the one who brought up athleticism, not me. If we aren't basing it on things we can see like quickness, vertical, speed, strength, etc., then what should we base it on? Believe it or not, I don't care about the picture that was recently posted. You had numerous posts about it before I posted in this thread, and my first post was asking you to clarify what you meant. 

No, it means we return production. We can do that and still get younger. Not sure how or why you continue to deny this fact. I realize you’re now trying to change the parameters so it’s clear you understand you were making an inaccurate point. As for the athleticism issue, you claimed Smith’s replacement was more athletic than he was, and you’ve continued to deny it even though it’s your own words and based so.ely on a picture and a highlight video. Lol.  Sorry, but you’re 0 for 2. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Justin Smith is clearly athletic, but his athleticism is overrated in terms of its basketball application. His vertical is obviously incredible, but his athleticism was reduced because of his lack of skill and his lack of motor. He probably would do great in combine type of setting, but his athleticism doesn’t usually translate to the game.

Basketball is a game where athleticism needs to be matched with skill and effort. For example, I can’t remember too many times where Smith used his athleticism to blow by a defender from the perimeter to get to the basket, or used his athleticism to sprint down the court for a track down block, or sprint down the court and beat guys down court for a fast break dunk. 

I rarely watched Smith and thought, “wow this guy is dominating with his athleticism”. He isn’t in Oladipo or Troy Williams class as a an athlete. I think Geronimo probably is, but that obviously remains to be seen. 

On the youth point, IU may be chronologically younger, but we only lost two regular rotation players. There can’t be many Power 5/6 schools that only lost two rotation players. Saying we lost 4 upperclassmen is a little disingenuous, given that Davis and Anderson hardly played.

We basically return 4 starters, as well as Hunter, Franklin and Thompson. I guess you can argue youth in that our best player is a sophomore and potentially our next best player is a freshmen, but overall we return a lot of minutes, starts and production. 

 

Edited by BGleas
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Sark said:

No, it means we return production. We can do that and still get younger. Not sure how or why you continue to deny this fact. I realize you’re now trying to change the parameters so it’s clear you understand you were making an inaccurate point. As for the athleticism issue, you claimed Smith’s replacement was more athletic than he was, and you’ve continued to deny it even though it’s your own words and based so.ely on a picture and a highlight video. Lol.  Sorry, but you’re 0 for 2. 

 

 

I will fully admit that I was equating experience and age, you apparently are not equating them. We objectively return more experience this year than we did last year. I have no idea about the age of each team, but if there is a difference it isn't much. As far as minutes returned not equating to experience.... How do you figure? That's literally a measure of how much time those players played. What would you call that if not experience?

Now the question is why in the world are you more focused on age that experience? In what other setting has someone talking about college sports refered to the age of a team and meant the year they were born and not how much they've played?

As far as athleticism, you're so clearly wrong. You posted about it multiple times before I ever posted, it's right there for you or anyone else to verify. Then I simply asked how you're defining athleticism and you've refused to answer. From my perspective I don't find Justin to be any more athletic than Jordan so I'm curious what you're looking at to say otherwise. Can you enlighten me?

Edited by KoB2011
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I will fully admit that I was equating experience and age, you apparently are not equating them. We objectively return more experience this year than we did last year. I have no idea about the age of each team, but if there is a difference it isn't much. As far as minutes returned not equating to experience.... How do you figure? That's literally a measure of how much time those players played. What would you call that if not experience?

Now the question is why in the world are you more focused on age that experience? In what other setting has someone talking about college sports refered to the age of a team and meant the year they were born and not how much they've played?

As far as athleticism, you're so clearly wrong. You posted about it multiple times before I ever posted, it's right there for you or anyone else to verify. Then I simply asked how you're defining athleticism and you've refused to answer. From my perspective I don't find Justin to be any more athletic than Jordan so I'm curious what you're looking at to say otherwise. Can you enlighten me?

I regularly mentioned we got younger, not older, and that’s unquestionably true. Not sure how you continue to deny this fact. As for athleticism, you made the claim that Geronimo is more athletic than Smith, yet you’ve only seen a highlight video of him and really have no way of knowing whether this is true or not. Have no idea why you continue to deny these facts, but you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...