St. John’s Post Game

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I disagree here, we don’t know what has happened in practice. I think it’s very apparent Woody is giving upperclassmen the first crack at minutes. No better evidence than Bates being brought on slowly despite the rave reviews he has been getting in practice. 
 

For better or worse, Woody comes from an era where vets get the first crack at minutes. 

Vets should always get the first crack. Can't build a program if you don't. 

[IUFLA]

I'll just say this...

I'd much rather haggle about back-up point guards than why we blew a 14 point lead and lost...

Like a breath of fresh air from somebody that uses Scope  

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, Inequality said:

Same team fellas. Go Hoosiers!

Actually, I am a Montana State fan.  But, they dont have a board.  

[cthomas]

12 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'll just say this...

I'd much rather haggle about back-up point guards than why we blew a 14 point lead and lost...

Like a breath of fresh air from somebody that uses Scope  

Absolutely. We are way beyond where we were last year. The vibe of this team is better in every way. Nobody panicked when we lost the lead. They just went back to work and made game winning plays. I'll take that every time.

[Inequality]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Actually, I am a Montana State fan.  But, they dont have a board.  

https://bobcatnation.com/bobcatbb/viewforum.php?f=21
 

Come back soon and good luck this season!

[KoB2011]

31 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Vets should always get the first crack. Can't build a program if you don't. 

I don’t disagree, but it just validates that Lander may already be outplaying Rob. We don’t see what happens at practice, but we can see on the court that Rob isn’t adding much. 

[IU878176]

15 hours ago, btownqb said:

Correct. Were we really even THAT much better than many Archie Miller performances? No, I truly don't think so.. but we won. W 

3-0 feeling good today moving on. 

Yes, let’s face it…..If the Champagne man made that last desperation 3 we would have lost and the tone of the boards posts would have been that we haven’t beaten anyone, gave up a big lead like the last few years, free throws beat us again, the world as we know it is going to end, etc etc.

Aside from the outstanding first half defense I tend to agree that we have not been playing “THAT” much better but I do think our outlook and trajectory is “THAT” much better. Bates is going to be a player, Geronimo will be a 20 minutes man by Big Ten Season, X is an upgrade at the point, TJD seems more locked in, Durr will help against the BT teams with big traditional 5’s, the players looked miserable last year but have bought-in with Woody, past history tells you that at least one of Stewart/Kopp will be a perimeter threat, etc etc.  These guys have only played 3 regular season games and Woody (and us, his helpers  ) has identified a number of things to work on but there is already a lot to like.  As you said, we are 3-0 and that is a beautiful thing and I’m glad my enthusiasm has already recovered from the 4 years of misery.

 

[btownqb]

32 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don’t disagree, but it just validates that Lander may already be outplaying Rob. We don’t see what happens at practice, but we can see on the court that Rob isn’t adding much. 

KL needs to go take the mins then. If things don't work here w/him it won't be because lack of time on the court. 

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

There's no easy choice in the backup point guard debate, and it really just comes down to what Woodson values and is looking for in that position. Obviously, Phinisee brings a plus-defender that has experience and when playing well can be a steadying hand. Often times, that's what a coach wants in the backup PG. Someone he can trust. 

The downside with Phinisee is you're getting an over-dribbler offensively, who is what he is at this point. Let's face it, he's a bad shooter who also doesn't finish at the rim. I think we're beyond the point of thinking Phinisee can turn into a guy who consistently knocks down open shots. 

We have 3 years and 3 games worth of data that show us that Phinisee is a 35.7% shooter overall, a 29.5% 3pt shooter and a 66.7% free throw shooter. Those numbers are awful and most likely aren't changing over these next 25-30 games. 

With Lander, you're hoping for realized potential. I tend to agree with some others that the potential isn't as high as some think, but still you'd be playing him in hopes that by mid-to-late January you have a young, dynamic backup point guard that is passable defensively, but adding elements with his passing, speed, and getting to the rim and scoring or dishing. You're hoping for development. 

You can always go back to Phinisee, he's a veteran who will step in when called upon and give you what he's always given you.

The question is, what does Woodson want. I think he sticks with Phinisee, and I probably would too. My caveat though is that in these next three games, if XJ gets into early foul trouble I'd give Lander a shot at extended minutes. I'd go Phinisee in short, regular bursts, but if there is a chance for extended minutes I'd give Lander a chance to try and figure things out, assuming we're not sacrificing a game we should win. 

I feel like I'm playing both sides of the fence, but that's where I'm at. 

As a coach you definitely tend to lean on guys you trust...guys that can handle and understand the moment. Rob is very very steady....he won't get too high or low and he isn't likely to make bad mistakes and will usually lock in defensively. Low ceiling for sure with him but he is a senior and won't make those killer mistakes that cause big runs like bad live ball turnovers  He is usually a low volume shooter so his percentages could easily swing back and forth wildly in his shooting. I think what you have to do is trust more time to Lander during this next stretch to see how he handles it. Basically, we just have to play the hot hand. If Lander is locked in and playing well....sorry Rob. If his head isn't in it and he is making young mistakes then we have Rob to lean on. Honestly, I think Woody played it well the other night. I might have gone to Lander a little sooner in the game for a stretch but really just see if the kid has a heater. He hasn't really done enough to surplant Rob no doubt. I have no problem with how the minutes played out...I just would have liked to see Lander get maybe a 4 minute stretch in the first half to go with the stretch he got in the second. Maybe it's like a 15/10 split or something. With Galloway going down we are going to have some larger stretches of Rob/Lander and Xavier on  the court some together at least until we see if Leal can step into those minutes. Gotta keep both ready and involved. I like Xavier...definitely can break down a defense and plays with more pace....but he is a little more reckless and gives up some dumb fouls and I think foul trouble will always be a thing with him honestly. We've seen a few games when Rob hits a couple shots and really gets into the game...certainly don't want to lose that. Hard to replace a senior experience ball handler....but I absolutely want to keep giving Lander opportunities and the chance to see more playing time and just run with the hot hand between them.

[Steubenhoosier]

Read through most of this, and here's my (uneducated) takeaways....

-Both RP and KL bring skill sets to the table. Both can add value to the team and I think their usage will be determined by situational basketball, meaning size matchups, need to shut down a high scoring guard, need to speed up the pace.

-BGleas posted a synopsis of RP's shooting woes, and how he tends to bog down the offense. Agree, but most of that sample size was under the tutelage of a different coaching staff. It has only been 3 games thus far under CMW, et al. Give the staff some more time to see if they can reinstill a sense of confidence in him. As has been noted, the physical gifts are there. If by mid/end of January Rob refuses to or is unable to improve and adapt, then he gets pushed farther down the bench.

-KL should be given meaningful minutes where it makes sense. If the makeup of the opposing team's backcourt is older, more physically advanced and experienced players, his minutes might be limited. Matchups matter significantly in basketball.

-Finally, it has been proven more often than not that teams advance deep into the tournament with experienced guards. Rob and X bring that experience. Can't discount the fact that RP has played in a lot more meaningful games than KL has.

[dgambill]

58 minutes ago, cthomas said:

Absolutely. We are way beyond where we were last year. The vibe of this team is better in every way. Nobody panicked when we lost the lead. They just went back to work and made game winning plays. I'll take that every time.

We played hard last year too....the difference is simply winning and losing. Honestly we didn't really close out either game well....with the exception of getting the W. We didn't do much as far as getting stops the last couple minutes and we didn't hit free throws...we didn't take a 2-4 pt lead and stretch it to 8-10.....the result was great...and we fought hard and didn't give up...but we did that last year....the negativity comes from losing those games...from the stress/pressure under a coach under fire etc. I don't see anything necessarily vastly different so far this year from last...just the results have gone our way....after all we had had some very toughly contested games under Archie against Illinois/FSU etc that we never gave up and just didn't go our way. The vibe can easily change....if both those games turn on a make by both opposing teams you don't think the vibe with the team would be just like last year? I'm not ready to say this particular team has turned a corner or has developed anything different between the ears yet...it's going to take a few years under Woody to build that culture and develop those winning attitudes imo.

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

So... we're playing someone over another person because they shoot a better percentage from the foul line than another player, but the first player can't get there anyway. Lol 

What an argument

I don't think either of them give us a whole lot as far as getting to the line right now...certainly not compared to how Xavier does (he is a much more attacking pg which I like). That said at end of games when teams are fouling etc it might be worth noting...Lander isn't a bad free throw shooter...(90%) that we can tell...Rob we do have plenty of info on...is a below avg (66%) free throw shooter for a pg. Now no doubt I choose Xavier over both who is avg (75%) but with the volume and experience. Be interesting to see what Rob's percentage last 5 minutes of games...I don't have that split.

Edited November 19, 2021 by dgambill

[cthomas]

8 minutes ago, dgambill said:

We played hard last year too....the difference is simply winning and losing. Honestly we didn't really close out either game well....with the exception of getting the W. We didn't do much as far as getting stops the last couple minutes and we didn't hit free throws...we didn't take a 2-4 pt lead and stretch it to 8-10.....the result was great...and we fought hard and didn't give up...but we did that last year....the negativity comes from losing those games...from the stress/pressure under a coach under fire etc. I don't see anything necessarily vastly different so far this year from last...just the results have gone our way....after all we had had some very toughly contested games under Archie against Illinois/FSU etc that we never gave up and just didn't go our way. The vibe can easily change....if both those games turn on a make by both opposing teams you don't think the vibe with the team would be just like last year? I'm not ready to say this particular team has turned a corner or has developed anything different between the ears yet...it's going to take a few years under Woody to build that culture and develop those winning attitudes imo.

I agree with most of what you said there. I think the biggest difference going forward is the personality of CMW. I don't think you can underestimate the difference that can make when things don't go well on the court. CMW seems to have a better understanding of how to handle the team and that will lead to the culture change we have needed. Of course, as always, I could be completely wrong.

[dgambill]

26 minutes ago, cthomas said:

I agree with most of what you said there. I think the biggest difference going forward is the personality of CMW. I don't think you can underestimate the difference that can make when things don't go well on the court. CMW seems to have a better understanding of how to handle the team and that will lead to the culture change we have needed. Of course, as always, I could be completely wrong.

I agree....just the pressure around the program and team has been lifted...and I agree and Woody's personality as well (just seems confident in who he is as a coach/person) goes a long way in allowing these kids to hopefully succeed and play freer. Just saying we were very very close so many times last year...but we just came out on the losing end (and had nothing to do with our fight) until finally the team broke and we saw the collapse at the end. I don't discount how just having a couple breaks go our way and those L's turn to W's how it changes the feeling around the team....heck just look at our football program and the difference a year makes and a couple bounces make.

[IowaHoosierFan]

17 hours ago, btownqb said:

Didn't you say RP should have started the 2nd half in game one!?

I did, in the first game i thought he played well enough in the first half to start.  But then when he played in the second half he stunk it up.  I stand corrected.

[IowaHoosierFan]

15 hours ago, btownqb said:

I didnt quote you on that one. That's was KY Hoosier I was responding to. 

Really??  Come on man.  Why you calling me KY Hoosier.  WTF man.  What did i do to you

[FKIM01]

16 hours ago, rico said:

Actually, Lander averages more ppg than Phin in the early going.  Once again, small sample size.

That's my point...that Lander seems to be better offensively when given the opportunity. Moves the offense better as well.  I get that his defense isn't as good as Phinisee...probably by quite a bit. 

It will be interesting to track their comparative +/- as the season goes on.

[Lostin76]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:40 PM, mrflynn03 said:

One thing that feels different to me about this season is I see continuous improvement.  I don't see this team regressing of getting in a funk. Woody won't allow that to happen. 

We will lose games here and the but the losing streaks of the last few years aren't going to happen. 

Finally got to watch the game on Thursday night and agree with this, but also noticed that we just kept fighting back each time. It was almost like an old-fashioned heavyweight brawl for most of the second half. Archie’s teams wouldn’t have had the confidence to do that, and Crean’s wouldn’t have had the discipline. 

It’s a small sample so far, but I loved that game’s energy and our response. Am also glad I knew that we had won, b/c that would have been a stressful last five minutes. 

[IUCrazy2]

21 hours ago, dgambill said:

We played hard last year too....the difference is simply winning and losing. Honestly we didn't really close out either game well....with the exception of getting the W. We didn't do much as far as getting stops the last couple minutes and we didn't hit free throws...we didn't take a 2-4 pt lead and stretch it to 8-10.....the result was great...and we fought hard and didn't give up...but we did that last year....the negativity comes from losing those games...from the stress/pressure under a coach under fire etc. I don't see anything necessarily vastly different so far this year from last...just the results have gone our way....after all we had had some very toughly contested games under Archie against Illinois/FSU etc that we never gave up and just didn't go our way. The vibe can easily change....if both those games turn on a make by both opposing teams you don't think the vibe with the team would be just like last year? I'm not ready to say this particular team has turned a corner or has developed anything different between the ears yet...it's going to take a few years under Woody to build that culture and develop those winning attitudes imo.

One thing, everyone talking about this year and last year is comparing year one with a coach instilling his system to year four? for another coach.  Yes, there are definitely growing pains.  However, we haven't lost a game.  We didn't get blown out by Indiana State in Woodson's first game.  The type of offense we run appears to be more "modern".  Defense seems to be more tailored to handling a modern offense (can you imagine what that St. John's team would have done to the packline?).

Yes, sometimes it just comes down to finding a way to win.  That is kind of why they play the game.  And 3 out of 3 times this year, the team figured out how to do that.

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yes, sometimes it just comes down to finding a way to win.  That is kind of why they play the game.  And 3 out of 3 times this year, the team figured out how to do that.

And I think that's the key...Last year when we blew a lead, it was "flight." This year, it's "fight."

[dgambill]

15 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

One thing, everyone talking about this year and last year is comparing year one with a coach instilling his system to year four? for another coach.  Yes, there are definitely growing pains.  However, we haven't lost a game.  We didn't get blown out by Indiana State in Woodson's first game.  The type of offense we run appears to be more "modern".  Defense seems to be more tailored to handling a modern offense (can you imagine what that St. John's team would have done to the packline?).

Yes, sometimes it just comes down to finding a way to win.  That is kind of why they play the game.  And 3 out of 3 times this year, the team figured out how to do that.

I’m not wanting to take anything away from Woody…he has done fine so far…not too much to question. Just saying we still aren’t shooting consistently, still can’t shoot free throws, and still have scoring droughts. That is more a product of that the team is still consisted of mostly the same as last year. I’m not too interested in comparing year 1 between the two because they didn’t have the same start afforded each other. Archie started from scratch…from less than scratch…that was a HORRIBLE roster Crean left him. This is the crucial difference. Crean was fired too late. If we waited another year we would have stuck Woody in the same hole. Can you imagine him coming into a team without TJD, Race and company?? It would have been a total rebuild instead of just a reboot. Who was Archie left with?? Honestly year 1 was probably Archie’s best coaching. So this isn’t an equal comparison. So circling back we have held on and won games…and that is big for our psyche but I’m not exactly sure there is much of a difference yet with most these guys and they’ve turned a corner. They still have the same problems and weaknesses. We’ve added a couple pieces (mostly Xavier) that has helped tremendously in picking up the pace of the offense but we could very very easily lost game 1 to a team worse than that ISU and could have easily lost that game to St Johns with how we executed down the stretch (who was without their starting guard who got thrown out) and sitting at 1-2 and this all would have a very familiar feel of being snake bitten. I’m glad it isn’t but until I see guys consistently knock down shots to go with Kopp and Bates I’m going to still be nervous how we get through B1G competition.

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I’m not wanting to take anything away from Woody…he has done fine so far…not too much to question. Just saying we still aren’t shooting consistently, still can’t shoot free throws, and still have scoring droughts. That is more a product of that the team is still consisted of mostly the same as last year. I’m not too interested in comparing year 1 between the two because they didn’t have the same start afforded each other. Archie started from scratch…from less than scratch…that was a HORRIBLE roster Crean left him. This is the crucial difference. Crean was fired too late. If we waited another year we would have stuck Woody in the same hole. Can you imagine him coming into a team without TJD, Race and company?? It would have been a total rebuild instead of just a reboot. Who was Archie left with?? Honestly year 1 was probably Archie’s best coaching. So this isn’t an equal comparison. So circling back we have held on and won games…and that is big for our psyche but I’m not exactly sure there is much of a difference yet with most these guys and they’ve turned a corner. They still have the same problems and weaknesses. We’ve added a couple pieces (mostly Xavier) that has helped tremendously in picking up the pace of the offense but we could very very easily lost game 1 to a team worse than that ISU and could have easily lost that game to St Johns with how we executed down the stretch (who was without their starting guard who got thrown out) and sitting at 1-2 and this all would have a very familiar feel of being snake bitten. I’m glad it isn’t but until I see guys consistently knock down shots to go with Kopp and Bates I’m going to still be nervous how we get through B1G competition.

I am not saying there is not things to clean up, but take that year 4 team that Miller had with many of the same players.  I honestly don't think that we give up a lead to that St. Johns team.   I think with the packline and the way they shoot the ball, they would have run us off our own floor.

I completely agree that the players need to develop the killer instinct, the free throw shooting drives me nuts, and they are still shaky behind the arc.  However, with all of those things the team is still finding a way to win.  That St. Johns team would be a tough out for anybody.  It will be interesting to see how they do against Kansas in a few games.

Edited November 20, 2021 by IUCrazy2

[btownqb]

8 hours ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Really??  Come on man.  Why you calling me KY Hoosier.  WTF man.  What did i do to you

Fair completely fair. So so sorry. You have every right to be upset. 🙈🙈🙈

[btownqb]

8 hours ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I did, in the first game i thought he played well enough in the first half to start.  But then when he played in the second half he stunk it up.  I stand corrected.

All I'm saying with that point is... its been three games vs 1 average team and 2 poop teams. We know nothing, as of now. 

[btownqb]

23 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I don’t disagree, but it just validates that Lander may already be outplaying Rob. We don’t see what happens at practice, but we can see on the court that Rob isn’t adding much. 

I just don't see what Lander adds, at all. I'd say that's truly where I'm coming from.