KoB2011

This is true, might have even been 0-16. But, he did other clutch things, just not that late in the game.

It wasn't really a comeback win at all. The Pacers led at the conclusion of all four quarters. It was more like the Pacers controlled a close game throughout against a very good team. I'll concede it looked like that close game may get away from them in the fourth, might have with last years team, but this years team dug in and fought. Glad we can agree this team has more fortitude than last years.

The East is not good, that's why the Cavs shouldn't be too worried about making the Finals. Boston was a real threat, IMO, before the injury. Now it just doesn't seem likely anyone is ready to challenge LeBron.

Damontis Sabonis also with a huge game. Pacers have some really nice young pieces.

Huge second half from Vic to lead the Pacers over the Spurs. Adding a potential All-Star in Turner to this group could really have them in the middle of it in the East. They won't be as good as Cleveland, Milwaukee or Washington, but beyond that? No one sticks out as out of their reach if Vic keeps playing this level and Turner is a 20/10/3 guy.

I'm not sure how growing up in Indiana impacts where you get your news today? You often reference listening to national radio shows, have never seen you mention listening to Grady and Big Joe, Dakich, JMV or any other local radio shows. And yes, the past two seasons the Pacers went 3-8 in the playoffs. Maybe hardly winning a game was strong, but they haven't been competitive. You were touting PG as a playoff stud. Here's the thing, I'm not anti-PG at all. I think he's a top 15-20 player. That seems pretty in line with where most NBA guys have him. You saying he's a clear top 10 guy, aka an elite guy, seems to be the one letting your feelings about him impact your argument. Either way, I'm out on the PG talk as well. Here's to a great Pacers (and Hoosiers) season!

He never carried the Pacers though. He had three other borderline All-Stars in a weak East and lost to the first good team he played. Then when he had a chance to carry them, they got dominated back to back years. Spare me what his numbers where or that the games were close, that's Purdue stuff. We got knocked out with no resistance the two years he had a chance to carry us and last year only even made it because of Lance. You can't lose every game you play and dominant a series.

For what it's worth, people in Indianapolis we're almost universally ready for PG to move on. Especially those that follow the Pacers closely. It seems like you get most of your NBA news from national media that rarely covers the Pacers, yeah? Check out what ALL the local guys that cover them daily thought. Check out what other fans thought. Most the Indy folks on this board pretty much come down on the same side of the PG issue.

They were also still missing Turner. Turner could very well be a legit 20/10/3 guy this year, so that's a big loss. He and Vic should thrive getting to be the main guys. Vic certainly is thriving so far. There is a reason Vic was the second pick of the draft and a NPOTY - he doesn't lack for any physical tools. There's no reason he can't be a top 2 or 3 shooting guard in the NBA.

It's like he was the #2 pick and in a good situation for him for the first time as a pro or something....

Guys unequivocally better than PG: LeBron Leonard Durant Curry Davis Greek Freak Towns Harden Westbrook Guys mostly accepted as better than PG at this point: Wall Thompson Butler Paul Guys that a case could be made either way: Draymond Lillard Kyrie IT Beal Porzingis Love Griffin Gobert Jokic So you have 9 guys that you can't really argue with, and 4 more that you'd have a really hard time making a case. He's in that next group. Still a REALLY good player, but he isn't elite like he was/could've been. Your BIAS of your fandom from when he was a top 5 player gets the best of you my friend.

What he did pre-injury is irrelevant. He isn't that same player anymore. Is what Wade did five years ago relevant to a discussion of how good he is today? You keep talking about how great he was in the two first round exits. Do you understand that LeBron had arguably the greatest single series any player has had with Paul George guarding him? That doesn't equate to good defense. Do you really think steals is relevant to being a good defender? I guess it makes sense why that you would since you didn't think Crean was a bad defensive coach. Turnovers and deflections are great, but the goal of defense is to not let guys score. Then you quote points per game, is this 1982? You're using stats that are SO OUTDATED as metrics to show your point. The sad thing is, you proved you know what advanced stats are because you quoted the only one that favors PG. PER is probably the entry level of advanced stats, how was that last year?

If if PG is a borderline top 10 guy, the difference between that and clear top ten guys is MASSIVE. Like you said, the clear top ten guys are absolute killers. Maybe PG would've gotten there without the injury, but it happened. I don't understand why his pre-injury accomplishments are even included in a discussion of where he ranks today. In two seasons since the injury, his defense dropped off and his team underachieved. His scoring instead due to volume only. That's not what elite players do.

If you really think PG is top ten, babe your top ten do we can see who you're leaving out. I think I can make a better case he isn't top five at his position than you can he is top ten in the league.

You can't call me biased and say PG of clearly a top ten player. Like you've said, we've gone over stats and expert lists many times; they don't show a top ten player.

You see the irony of you telling me my fandom has the better of my judgment regarding PG, right? PG was a whiner, not a winner in Indy. It's why PG clearly performed below his talent level and why the team did. This team? Clearly less talent but they have the look of a team that can win 45-50 games because of how hard they play every night.

Dare I say early returns are the Pacers did okay, possibly even won, the Paul George trade? Sabonis is a baller too. Amazing how the difference in attitude between Vic and PG seem to impact the team (I'd add Collison and Teague to that).

Great start for Vic.

OG played in pre-season yesterday and made a couple of very nice plays. He seems to have refined his skill quite a bit during his recovery; he may end up the steal of what was a very strong draft.

I'm going to make a bold prediction: Turner averages 20/10/3 blocks Oladipo averages 20/5/5

With Smith.

He also doesn't give 100% effort game in and game out. The Pacers played well below their talent as a team because they had inconsistent effort from their best player. They may have less talent, but they'll maximize it a lot better now.

You may be right, but five more wins would've given them the fifth best record in the entire league.

I have never been sold on Melo being over the hill. I still think if he is on a good team he can really play. And while he has never been a great defender, he is certainly capable of guarding 4s in the modern NBA and has shown in the past he can be competent.