Hoosierhoopster

I'd say that he was an above-average defender the past two years -- for that matter, he finished 7th overall in the League in defensive win shares in 2015-16. That's not an "average defender." He also finished 2015-16 9th in steals per game. But to your point, much like Kawhi, his overall defensive contribution went down as his lead role increased -- it's damn hard to be at the top of the NBA on both sides of the ball. So few fit that description. What we're seeing now is that, when PG is not relied upon to lead the team as the number one offensive option and to put up high scoring every night, he is able to lead the team, and the League, defensively. Again, go back over Kawhi's defensive and offensive production for the years when he was second or third offensively to Duncan and Parker, and then when he became the number one offensive option, you'll see a similar trajectory. (I'm not saying PG is better than Kawhi, to me, injury aside, Kawhi is a top 3 player.) Here's the thing, there are so few guys in the NBA who are elite on both sides of the ball, and most recognize that PG is, along with a few, Kawhi, Butler, and LeBron's just in a class by himself. You can name a couple other guys, but not many. This is what I loved about Vic as a Hoosier -- a monster two-way player. Same for OG. These are the kind of players I really like, and now Vic is playing himself into the discussion of being one of those top two-way guys in the NBA (I'm thrilled for it). PG may not be an elite "leader," that's certainly debatable, but in fairness and with lots of respect to you -- I have a lot of respect for you -- I don't think it's fair to say he's not elite. His production shows that he is, on both sides of the ball, and most NBA players recognize him as such. He's frankly killing it this year, he's just not regularly scoring 25-plus because he's playing next to Mr. dominate ball useage, and Carmelo. Thnk you'll also see, as he does every playoffs, he'll also be dominant in the playoffs. This Thunder team is built for the playoffs -- wasn't sure if they'd mesh, but they seem to have finally gotten there.

1. Irrelevant, we're talking about this year. Draymond has not had an all star year, this year, and he's never led a team, which is really obvious. 2. Ironic, as PG has been 1st in the NBA in defensive win shares (2012), Draymond has never been 1st, and PG is -- currently -- 4th overall in defensive rating, and Draymond isn't even ranked this year. Draymond hasn't done jack this year. Leaving it here.

KOB your hatred of PG is now well documented, my friend. You're just going to continue to ignore how productive he is on both sides of the ball, as you have continuously ignored how strong he is defensively, saying several times in this thread that he just wasn't the same player defensively after his injury. Come on man, he's one of the League's premier players on both sides of the ball. As a mod I'm going to back out of this conversation, because it isn't going anywhere other than nitpicking and I don't want to come across as annoyed. Enjoy Vic on the P's, that's turning out really nicely.

Right the reserves were selected by the head coaches so my comments on Curry were off, but the idea that Draymond (or Klay) is better than PG is just wack. Draymond is by no stretch of the imagination a lead guy (nor is Klay), he does what he does by playing with and behind Curry et al. He's not a franchise player, he's a 3rd to 4th option player, and again he hasn't done jack this season. I really, really don't get the continuing need to try to belittle PG and pointedly ignore what he does in some kind of self-congratulatory back slap instead of just enjoying what a great season Vic is having and how well that has worked out. I could quote the multitude of articles recognizing what PG is doing this season, or quote more stats, and that he was snubbed, but I guess all of that would just get ignored along with the fact that he's very much in the running for defensive MVP and having a stellar season all around. For the heck of it, here's one of many -- . Paul George Oklahoma City might have one bright star, but George has been nothing short of brilliant, especially on defense. PG13 leads the NBA at 4.4 deflections per game and has racked up 93 steals on the season — tied with Russell Westbrook for another league-best. He’s also shooting threes at a high clip, playing off the ball when Westbrook is running the show, and running the offense himself at times, too. The rest of the All-Stars are lucky he didn’t make the game because they weren’t scoring much on him. https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/1/23/16924024/2018-nba-all-star-game-roster-snubs-paul-george-andre-drummound-lou-williams-chris-paul-ben-simmons It's good to see Lillard finally get in -- if he wasn't picked this year he would've been the first player in NBA history to average 25 ppg I think it was 3 years in a row and not make it -- and he vocally complained about not getting picked, so the coaches picked him, lol. Glad Vic made it, knew he would, which, again, he really has PG to thank for, that's the real irony. He needed to get away from the Thunder and Westbrook and become the lead guard taking the most shots, on a team that fit with his game, and he found that, clearly, with the P's. Good for him.

Oh come on guys. You know I said above, several times, that the irony of PG's trade was that, playing with Westbrook, he might not get selected, right? You guys aren't being petty, are you? Lol guys, I've been going out of my way to praise Vic and you guys get snarky? (And as I also said above, expected Vic to make the All Star reserves, totally deserved). Pretty much everyone outside Pacers fans who didn't like PG recognize he was snubbed, but that's sort of besides the point. Let's see, Western Conf coaches, and Curry as captain, get to pick. Let's see, there are 4 GS players on the West "All Star" team -- they added Draymond, who hasn't done jack this season, and Klay, because, golly, they're on the Warriors. Think GS deserves 4 guys? Of course not. PG is a current defensive MVP candidate, he's 5th in the League in 3-pointers made, 14th in 3-point percentage, 2nd in total steals (to Westbrook), 2nd in steals per game (by a hair, has been 1st all year), and so on. His points are down only because he's playing with Westbrook. I kind of like Westbrook's take, though -- http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22194310/russell-westbrook-baffled-oklahoma-city-thunder-teammate-paul-george-being-left-all-star-reserves ""Unbelievable. I think it's just outrageous, in my opinion," Westbrook said, demonstrably closing his eyes and shaking his head. "I don't know who else made the team but got four people from one team, you've got guys complaining about getting snubbed until they get in, you've got guys just talking about it all the time." As this guy notes, if PG was in the East, he'd be playing in the All Star game: Now in the Western Conference, George was not able to make the ASG for the third straight season. As expected now that he's playing with Russell Westbrook and Carmelo Anthony, he's not putting up quite the numbers he has in the past, but he's still having a very solid season. He's getting over 20 points a night, is 12th in the league in 3-point percentage (42.9), and has been a big part of the Thunder's stout defense. It is a bit humorous that Victor Oladipo made the ASG, while PG-13 did not, but if George was in the East, he'd be playing in this game. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-all-star-game-2018-paul-george-and-andre-drummond-headline-the-top-snubs/ Which is kind of obvious, right? Go Vic -- who has George to thank for his first All Star appearance.

It's not -- like I said, still a good thing!

Yeah Pop is the best, this game did involve a lineup switch up though, Parker off the bench. Spurs' starting group of Gasol, Aldridge, Anderson, Murray, Green is not exactly the Spurs best. Again though anytime you win in San Antonio is still good.

Not that it's not a good thing, but no Kawhi or Ginobli.

^^ Vic is absolutely an all star (reserve) this year, and last I checked was third in voting among East Conf guards. I think it's always been agreed he'd have a legit shot at the allstar game with the Pacers. The question about him, in joining the P's, was more about whether he could raise his game to become one of the elite (top 25 or better) players in the League. He was nowhere near that discussion last year, but as of right now, he looks to be doing just that, which, particularly considering his play with the Thunder last season, is outstanding. See my post above about how well both are doing . Vic is killing it with the P's -- and that really reflects how much better he is as the lead, on-the-ball guard, as opposed to trying to play off ball next to a superstar. He was not good next to Westbrook, that was largely a failure of an experiment (and in my view also reflects poorly on Westbrook and his crazy useage percentages). But now he's playing brilliant ball as the lead guy. Another relevant point here -- Teague is gone. The Teague experiment with the P's also was a failure, his ball dominant play did not help the P's, or PG (and they had chemistry issues). This isn't the team PG played with, and it's much better suited to Vic's game. Meanwhile PG is playing great ball with the Thunder, and is complimenting Westbrook, allowing for a big three game, again emphasizing his defensive game, and in the discussion as one of the best two-way players in the League, again. Some irony in that could cost him an all star spot in the West (though as of now he appears to be in, particularly considering he's leading the League in steals, 3rd in defensive win shares and is in the running for defensive MVP, while in the top 5 in 3-pointers and at 43%). Win win all around, at this point.

Pacers currently all over the Bucks by 25 in the 4th. Amazing what a difference an Oladipo makes.

Oladipo is back, and the Pacers are crushing the Bulls at the half, 64-37, Vic has 16 at the half on 7-9 shooting. Not too shabby. And 6 assists.

^^ Yes I think the P's were overachieving a bit, but Vic is clearly their engine now and they need him back in a big way. Can still make the playoffs with him back and healthy, hope he returns soon. Last word I saw was that he was not practicing yet. Hopefully he's back on the court quickly.

^^ OG didn't have a good game last night, but he's generally been playing really well. DeRozan's playing great, but Lowry, well, not a Lowry fan. Taking a minute (briefly) to go back to the PG and Vic Pacers/Thunder discussion, as it's great to see it's working out well for both of them, and the Pacers and Thunder. Good new piece on PG, he's playing outstanding two-way ball right now - http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21952053/nba-how-paul-george-changed-game-alongside-russell-westbrook As of now, PG is - 1st in the NBA in steals per game (by a good margin, 2.4), and total steals (86). - 1st in deflections (deflections in the NBA are tracked and matter), almost a full deflection per game ahead of the second player. - 3rd in overall defensive win shares (2.2), and 5th in real plus-minus among SF's (note that OG is 9th) - 3rd in 3-pointers made, and shooting at 43% (16th in 3-point percentage - on more shots taken than everyone ahead of him other than Klay T) - 22nd in PPG, at 20.7, as he's playing with Westbrook (who leads the NBA in FG attempts - and misses), but also at least 24 in his last 4 games and 21.4 in last 10, as he, Westbrook and Anthony appear to have figured out the offense, with Westbrook taking significantly fewer 3's but otherwise attacking more and looking to score. As the article notes, PG is on track to becoming the 1st player in a decade to average more than 20 ppg and 2.4 steals per game. Top flight 2-way player, again. Meanwhile the Thunder are firing on almost all cylinders, 7-3 in last 10 and 13-5 in last 18, with W's over the Rockets, Toronto, Denver, Spurs, and Minn. Thunder probably will be a 4th or 5th seed in the West, with the possibility of playing Golden State (who they're 1-0 against) in the playoffs. And as of now Vic (who needs to get back, Pacers need him badly) is - 10th in PPG at 24.9, outstanding - 4th in real plus minus among 2-guards - 16th in 3-pointers made, at 42% (so much for the idea he isn't a good 3-point shooter, ahem, Gleas ) - 11th in steals per game (always a two-way player!) - 15th in PER - 19th overall in box plus-minus - 18th in VORP So both teams appear to have ended up really well and many, including myself, were wrong (at least so far) about Vic's level of impact on the P's. Hope he recovers soon. I would expect his numbers to start to go down a bit, as high as they've been, but regardless, it's clear that he is personally a much better player as an on-the-ball first option, lead player, than a second or third option playing with a ball dominant guard (Westbrook). Some players need the ball in their hands, I think it's pretty clear now that applies to Vic, and is why he played poorly last season. He can carry the P's, and PG is now shining with Westbrook, and, if Vic gets healthy, Pacers can make the playoffs. Great result for both teams.

I didn't watch that game, so can only look at the box -- but the box shows OG had the highest plus-minus for either team, at +16, on 35 minutes played. He had 6 boards, 2 assists, and 1 TO. Again, didn't see the game, but can't think he had a bad game with that plus-minus, and they got the W. Worth noting that DeRozan took 29 shots, and scored 52 (a franchise record), so he had the hot hand.

It was. As was tonight's Thunder-Bucks ending. Couldn't be clearer that Greek Freak stepped out of bounds, officials refused to review.

Yes, really something. Too bad he wasn't healthy his soph year, he's on another level for sure

OG rated #7 rookie in this cbssports take -- https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-rookie-power-rankings-simmons-struggles-lonzo-rising-bell-is-a-machine/ 7 OG AnunobyTORONTO RAPTORS SF Last week: No. 5 Stats this week: 6.3 points, 1.8 rebounds, 0.8 steals Despite his modest offensive numbers, Anunoby continues to be an absolute net rating monster in the Raptors' starting unit. He led the team with a plus-25.9 this week in nearly 27 minutes per game as the Raptors went 3-1. The long, 6-foot-8 forward out of Indiana has consistently guarded the best player on the opposing team, but his 3-point shooting has been one of the most pleasant surprises of this rookie class. He was 5-for-9 from behind the arc this week and is now shooting 44 percent on the season. He's been able to make shots from his offensive home in the corners, but he's also started relocating to the wing when his defender sags into the paint and has proven that he can knock those down as well. Overall, the Raptors couldn't be happier with how their No. 23 overall pick is progressing.

Lol Kev, you're like some jilted boyfriend haha. Vic is having such a fantastic year, so far, if he keep this kind of play up he will have earned his way into discussion with the top group of guards. What's been most impressive to me has been how efficiently he's scored so far this season, he's really raised his outside game. Still a lot of season to go, but man did he find a great fit with this Pacers squad. He is doing so much better than he did last season, with Westbrook, who, unfortunately, is still playing like he did last season instead of working to move the ball around with PG and Melo (Thunder rank something like 25th in assists, right now, way too much iso ball) I am still in a wait and see mode as to whether that Thunder squad gets it together, if they do -- like when they beat Golden State -- they're really good. If they don't, they still got what they wanted in getting Russ to commit to a long-term deal. So far, the Melo addition was a bad one. The PG comparison stuff though is just silly. Leaving aside we're talking two diftferent teams, and that Vic had a really bad year while playing with Westbrook like PG is currently trying to do (golly), did you know PG is leading the League right now in steals, as in #1? He's actually playing great D overall, while playing up and down offensively -- funny how it seems to coincide with Melo either not being on the floor, when PG had huge games, or not controlling possession. I wonder when people will just enjoy Vic doing well without the silly stuff about PG. I hope they both end up having great seasons -- go Vic.

Hmm, I wonder what made you think of Boston.

^^ and OG, though not a significant stat line (2-5 for 5 with 1 rebound, 1 assist, 1 steal) is in the regular starting rotation for Raptors, played 20 and finished +3. Vic's +10 led all players on both teams. How cool is it to see both of them as the rising, uber athletic, impact 2-way players for their NBA teams? Both under-recruited, both fantastic players for IU, both turning into legit and maybe elite NBA players.

I am not snarky to people who do not agree with me, and you've been rude and snarky to several posters on here. Posts don't usually bother me, usually people -- myself included -- are just snapping off quick replies and sometimes the language sounds stronger than intended, but Scott, you've really been pushing the envelope in your sniping. You don't have to agree, and you have lots of message board choices. I'd personally like to see you keep posting regardless of your disagreements with me (it's one thing to disagree, it's another to take rude pot shots at people), as a long time guy, but if you keep taking pot shots at people, myself included, that changes. Your call.

It's still early, but as of right now I'd put B Stevens as the up and coming Pop -- Pop's the best coach in the NBA, imo, and has been for years, but Stevens is looking like he could step into those very big shoes. Truly an outstanding coach and highly regarded by his players. And yes, the East is going to be fun to watch develop.

Brilliant. Thanks for the snarky post.

Except that it always devolves into the posts about PG whining to the refs, etc. Not trying to dissuade the dialogue, but the PG bashing has been pretty obvious in this thread, and I'm not interested in participating further in it. Love what Vic is bringing, for himself, realizing his all star potential. Remember when you and me went back and forth on him on the old board, and I was the one saying I thought he would be an all star, whereas you were questioning whether he would ever be any better than he was playing, at the time, on Orlando? For the record, again, Vic is my favorite Hoosier, and I've always thought he had all star potential -- that, however, does not make him on PG's level. He's not there, but the way he's playing now, maybe he will get there at some point.

Hmm. Not buying it Fouls, but ok