Hoosierhoopster

Pacers currently all over the Bucks by 25 in the 4th. Amazing what a difference an Oladipo makes.

Oladipo is back, and the Pacers are crushing the Bulls at the half, 64-37, Vic has 16 at the half on 7-9 shooting. Not too shabby. And 6 assists.

^^ Yes I think the P's were overachieving a bit, but Vic is clearly their engine now and they need him back in a big way. Can still make the playoffs with him back and healthy, hope he returns soon. Last word I saw was that he was not practicing yet. Hopefully he's back on the court quickly.

^^ OG didn't have a good game last night, but he's generally been playing really well. DeRozan's playing great, but Lowry, well, not a Lowry fan.

Taking a minute (briefly) to go back to the PG and Vic Pacers/Thunder discussion, as it's great to see it's working out well for both of them, and the Pacers and Thunder.

Good new piece on PG, he's playing outstanding two-way ball right now - http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21952053/nba-how-paul-george-changed-game-alongside-russell-westbrook

As of now, PG is

- 1st in the NBA in steals per game (by a good margin, 2.4), and total steals (86).

- 1st in deflections (deflections in the NBA are tracked and matter), almost a full deflection per game ahead of the second player.

- 3rd in overall defensive win shares (2.2), and 5th in real plus-minus among SF's (note that OG is 9th)

- 3rd in 3-pointers made, and shooting at 43% (16th in 3-point percentage - on more shots taken than everyone ahead of him other than Klay T)

-  22nd in PPG, at 20.7, as he's playing with Westbrook (who leads the NBA in FG attempts - and misses), but also at least 24 in his last 4 games and 21.4 in last 10, as he, Westbrook and Anthony appear to have figured out the offense, with Westbrook taking significantly fewer 3's but otherwise attacking more and looking to score.

As the article notes, PG is on track to becoming the 1st player in a decade to average more than 20 ppg and 2.4 steals per game. Top flight 2-way player, again.

Meanwhile the Thunder are firing on  almost all cylinders, 7-3 in last 10 and 13-5 in last 18, with W's over the Rockets, Toronto, Denver, Spurs, and Minn. Thunder probably will be a 4th or 5th seed in the West, with the possibility of playing Golden State (who they're 1-0 against) in the playoffs. 

And as of now Vic (who needs to get back, Pacers need him badly) is

- 10th in PPG at 24.9, outstanding

- 4th in real plus minus among 2-guards

- 16th in 3-pointers made, at 42% (so much for the idea he isn't a good 3-point shooter, ahem, Gleas )

- 11th in steals per game (always a two-way player!)

- 15th in PER

- 19th overall in box plus-minus

- 18th in VORP

So both teams appear to have ended up really well and many, including myself, were wrong (at least so far) about Vic's level of impact on the P's. Hope he recovers soon. I would expect his numbers to start to go down a bit, as high as they've been, but regardless, it's clear that he is personally a much better player as an on-the-ball first option, lead player, than a second or third option playing with a ball dominant guard (Westbrook). Some players need the ball in their hands, I think it's pretty clear now that applies to Vic, and is why he played poorly last season. He can carry the P's, and PG is now shining with Westbrook, and, if Vic gets healthy, Pacers can make the playoffs. Great result for both teams.

14 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

That means he didn't have a good game, right?

I didn't watch that game, so can only look at the box -- but the box shows OG had the highest plus-minus for either team, at +16, on 35 minutes played. He had 6 boards, 2 assists, and 1 TO. Again, didn't see the game, but can't think he had a bad game with that plus-minus, and they got the W. Worth noting that DeRozan took 29 shots, and scored 52 (a franchise record), so he had the hot hand.

16 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

That Celts-Rockets ending was PATHETIC officiating. 

It was. As was tonight's Thunder-Bucks ending. Couldn't be clearer that Greek Freak stepped out of bounds, officials refused to review.

11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Not bad for a guy who tore his ACL less than a year ago. Would've loved to have him instead of Leaf on the Pacers. 

Yes, really something. Too bad he wasn't healthy his soph year, he's on another level for sure

OG rated #7 rookie in this cbssports take --

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-rookie-power-rankings-simmons-struggles-lonzo-rising-bell-is-a-machine/

7

OG AnunobyTORONTO RAPTORS SF

Last week: No. 5 Stats this week: 6.3 points, 1.8 rebounds, 0.8 steals Despite his modest offensive numbers, Anunoby continues to be an absolute net rating monster in the Raptors' starting unit. He led the team with a plus-25.9 this week in nearly 27 minutes per game as the Raptors went 3-1. The long, 6-foot-8 forward out of Indiana has consistently guarded the best player on the opposing team, but his 3-point shooting has been one of the most pleasant surprises of this rookie class. He was 5-for-9 from behind the arc this week and is now shooting 44 percent on the season. He's been able to make shots from his offensive home in the corners, but he's also started relocating to the wing when his defender sags into the paint and has proven that he can knock those down as well. Overall, the Raptors couldn't be happier with how their No. 23 overall pick is progressing.

On 12/9/2017 at 4:25 PM, Indykev said:

 

Lol Kev, you're like some jilted boyfriend haha. 

Vic is having such a fantastic year, so far, if he keep this kind of play up he will have earned his way into discussion with the top group of guards. What's been most impressive to me has been how efficiently he's scored so far this season, he's really raised his outside game.

Still a lot of season to go, but man did he find a great fit with this Pacers squad. He is doing so much better than he did last season, with Westbrook, who, unfortunately, is still playing like he did last season instead of working to move the ball around with PG and Melo (Thunder rank something like 25th in assists, right now, way too much iso ball)

I am still in a wait and see mode as to whether that Thunder squad gets it together, if they do -- like when they beat Golden State -- they're really good. If they don't, they still got what they wanted in getting Russ to commit to a long-term deal. So far, the Melo addition was a bad one. 

The PG comparison stuff though is just silly. Leaving aside we're talking two diftferent teams, and that Vic had a really bad year while playing with Westbrook like PG is currently trying to do (golly), did you know PG is leading the League right now in steals, as in #1? He's actually playing great D overall, while playing up and down offensively -- funny how it seems to coincide with Melo either not being on the floor, when PG had huge games, or not controlling possession. I wonder when people will just enjoy Vic doing well without the silly stuff about PG. I hope they both end up having great seasons -- go Vic.

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Agree. You put Cody with the right franchise and the right coach, he could be a really effective player. He's not going to be a star, but he could be a really strong, effective player on a winning team. Obviously everyone looks good in Golden State, but I'd love to see how good Cody could be if you put him in Zaza Pauchulia's spot with the Warriors. Imagine Cody running the court with those guys and running pick and rolls with Durant or Curry. 

But even places like Boston, San Antonio, Toronto, etc., he could be really good.

Hmm, I wonder what made you think of Boston.

^^ and OG, though not a significant stat line (2-5 for 5 with 1 rebound, 1 assist, 1 steal) is in the regular starting rotation for Raptors, played 20 and finished +3.

Vic's +10 led all players on both teams.

How cool is it to see both of them as the rising, uber athletic, impact 2-way players for their NBA teams? Both under-recruited, both fantastic players for IU, both turning into legit and maybe elite NBA players.

42 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Not trying to be snarky but he complains any time someone bashes PG.  If he knows people are doing this then why bother reading them if he does not like it.  HH is snarky to anyone who does not agree with him on this topic so why to I get ridiculed when I post what I did.

I am not snarky to people who do not agree with me, and you've been rude and snarky to several posters on here. Posts don't usually bother me, usually people -- myself included -- are just snapping off quick replies and sometimes the language sounds stronger than intended, but Scott, you've really been pushing the envelope in your sniping. You don't have to agree, and you have lots of message board choices. I'd personally like to see you keep posting regardless of your disagreements with me (it's one thing to disagree, it's another to take rude pot shots at people), as a long time guy, but if you keep taking pot shots at people, myself included, that changes. Your call.

40 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I think the IU fan base gave up on Stevens as a realistic option 2-3 years ago, and practically no one mentioned his name as we got Archie.  But, the clamoring back in the day was justified.  I always liked Larry in the 80's but the Celtics are hardly my team.  When you take into account what he has had to work with, Stevens is probably the best at coaching any sport, any level.  Smart, knows how to handle players, great tactician, no dysfunction (which is practically a miracle by NBA ego standards).  I have never heard a peep of any bad thing said about Stevens by anyone.  It's remarkable that we have not heard of any disgruntled player going after him, etc.  He's obviously highly respected in all circles.  

As far as the East, it is going to be very interesting to see how things develop.  Regardless of Stevens, I am not sure that Philly isn't the organization with the highest upside in the longer term, if Embiid's feet and legs can hold up consistently.  And the Greek Freak has potential to be the best player in the league.  It's insane what he can do.  Big time players get calls in the playoffs.

It's still early, but as of right now I'd put B Stevens as the up and coming Pop -- Pop's the best coach in the NBA, imo, and has been for years, but Stevens is looking like he could step into those very big shoes. Truly an outstanding coach and highly regarded by his players.

And yes, the East is going to be fun to watch develop. 

3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Then don't because nobody is making you read these post.

Brilliant. Thanks for the snarky post. 

4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'm not selling anything.  Vic is a former IU player.  The Pacers are the 'home' team for a large percentage of the posters on this board.  It only stands to reason that we continue to analyze the trade that brought him home.

Except that it always devolves into the posts about PG whining to the refs, etc. Not trying to dissuade the dialogue, but the PG bashing has been pretty obvious in this thread, and I'm not interested in participating further in it. Love what Vic is bringing, for himself, realizing his all star potential. Remember when you and me went back and forth on him on the old board, and I was the one saying I thought he would be an all star, whereas you were questioning whether he would ever be any better than he was playing, at the time, on Orlando? For the record, again, Vic is my favorite Hoosier, and I've always thought he had all star potential -- that, however, does not make him on PG's level. He's not there, but the way he's playing now, maybe he will get there at some point.

22 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The ongoing discussion comparing Vic's year to Paul's is not 'bashing' George.  

Hmm. Not buying it Fouls, but ok 

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I don't see any bashing. I don't think Vic will make the All Star game .  My point is if he is a top 15 player then it really would not matter what position or conf. He plays in. Also top 15 would have put him 3rd team all NBA. If he would have been on 3rd team I believe he would still be here

Fair enough -- clarifying: All Star games are picked by conference -- the conference you are in matters. The best players are collectively, hands down, in the West. The competition for all star spots in the West is much steeper -- it just is, because of how they pick the All Star teams.

They also do not pick players 1-15, they pick by position. What position you are matters as to whether or not you are picked for the All Star game, because they pick by position.

Then there's the simple fact that the All Star game is not picked by who is the best player, 1-15 or otherwise, it is a popularity contest, with fans getting the lion share of the share of a player's vote, followed up (up to this season) by media, and then for non-starters, coaches. This year it's fans, media and players, I don't recall the breakdown, but it will continue to be largely a popularity contest. Reggie made 5 All Star games in 18 years. Think about that.

Then if you want to look on a pure star/talent basis for selecting small forwards, in the West it pretty clearly goes 1) Durant, 2) Kawhii, and the All Star game selections are made as "forwards," not just small forwards, so then you include in that top group players like Anthony Davis, Marc Gasol, Draymond, etc.

But for whatever it matters -- and as much as I personally like PG as a player while others on here have some kind of ax to grind on him -- I am far from alone in considering him one of the top players and forward in the League. Here's a couple: 1) who are the top 5 SF's in the League, Sept. 2017, #5: PG; https://www.isportsweb.com/2017/09/27/who-are-the-top-5-small-forwards-in-the-nba/  -- this ranking, which is hard to dispute at this point, goes 1. LeBron, 2. Durant, 3. Greek Freak (though he's not really a 3), 4. Kawhi (I'd put him 2 or 3), and 5. PG; 2) Hollinger's NBA player stats 2017-18, top 5 PER by SF's, PG#4 http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf/league/west ; 3) another small forward ranking placing PG as #4, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2701554-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-small-forwards ;  I could go on, but as this thread has demonstrated,, what's the point, stats and what he's demonstrated for years are just ignored.

Regardless, PG is clearly not having a great year, so far. He had two exceptional games when Carmelo was out (golly, wonder why), and now that Melo is back and it's all iso ball again, he's had an up and down couple of games and most recently a horrible shooting game (though he had 10 assists). It's going to be an interesting year for PG, and for that matter Melo. They, along with Westbrook, had better go away from iso ball, or they're going to be at best mediocre, and could actually miss the playoffs. Btw, they just dominated Golden State, in a game where all three played fantastic ball. That's the team they're capable of being. But we'll see if they get it together regularly, and whether PG can adapt to playing with ridiculously iso-ball domineering Melo (who everyone, but Melo, recognizes he needs to cut the iso ball stuff), or not. Right now, he's not an all star this year, and it's going to be difficult for him to get there playing second to Westbrook, but judging him on his current numbers, at the 1/4 way mark on the season, is pointless. 

8 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Is that the list that has Rudy Gorbert ahead of Kyrie? I don't take much stock in it.   Off top of my head LeBron, Kyrie,Hayward, John Wall and Greek freak ahead of PG. In all honesty PG probably is the 7th best guard in the west

1) PG is not a guard, he's a small forward (and that is always how he is selected for all star games). 

2) There is a sum total zero basis/metrics to put Hayward ahead of PG, except of course that you like Hayward  

3) All stars are selected by conference, as Gleas noted (and otherwise as much as I like him, Vic wouldn't stand a chance, as a guard). Guys like D Lillard get screwed and cheated out of the All Star game every year, because the West guard group is so stacked. And he really got hosed last season.

4) John Wall is not having a great year, so far, and the weakness in his game continues to be shooting. As good as he is, he has not developed a consistent shot, and it hurts the Wiz. Beal actually may be the better player at this point (his weakness is staying healthy).

and 5) I am done participating in dealing with the continuing PG bashing. I don't get the need.

16 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

VO and OG guarding each other tonight. 

Now that is cool. I can't watch this game, would love to hear how they did guarding each other.

1 hour ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Makes you wonder why it didn't happen last year...

Good question. 

58 minutes ago, Indykev said:

Hoosierhoopster + Paul George = LOVE  

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Bringing it back to the Pacers fully, I'm pretty shocked at how well Vic is doing. Don't get me wrong, I loved him at IU and thought he was a good NBA player in the right situation (3rd/4th guy on a good team), I'm pretty shocked at how well and efficient he's playing in this primary role and that they're actually winning. It's still really early though, and there's a long season to go, so we'll see if he can maintain, but as of now if you're a Pacers fan you have to be pretty happy with how things are playing out, and yes it appears they made the right deal.

My only question about the deal now is what is the ceiling really for this group? The young guys will continue to improve, but I'm not sure that along makes this group a real contender down the road for much more than maybe the second round. They will need to find a way to creatively add more impact pieces to this core, but the good new is that there seems to be a good, young core to begin with, no all teams have that. 

 

 

This is an objective viewpoint, and fair, not skewed by the Pacer fan or the fan who for whatever reason did not like PG. Taking it by analogy, IU looked great when they beat KU last year, started strong. Rob looked fantastic for 50% of the year. CuJo was a beast in the KU game. It's a season, you don't draw crazy comparisons to veteran NBA allstars and franchise players based on less than 1/4 of the season and ignoring how a player struggled over a full year coming in and has never been considered better than a top 50 player. I'm a huge Vic fan. But a little perspective. Give him the time to prove himself over the course of the season and against the elite players who the teams will start putting on him as the new look P's continue to be scouted. It's early, give him time.

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

The numbers don't lie.

Moreover, I would tell you that I believe PG is past the midpoint on his skills trajectory while VO is still climbing.

I get it...you say the sample size is too small. I say that Vic has spent his career proving people wrong and I don't think he's done making the experts look foolish

No offense man but the "numbers" are those of less than 20 games in one season. The "numbers" that don't lie are their career numbers. Go ahead and compare them. If you want to talk about last year, then last year Vic - as much as I love his game, and I'm the one on here who repeatedly said I thought he could be an all star when he was not playing well in Orlando - did not play well. The guard comparison is a no go. The "2" and "3" that they're playing are the same, the difference is the side of the floor they play on. That was the entire difference while PG was with the Pacers and it's basically the way both teams play. I get that you love Vic and got fed up with PG, but no,  man, Vic's roughly 20 games with the Pacers do not suddenly make him a top player in the League. I hope he keeps it up and earns that spot, but no, he's not there now, and this comparison is meaningless.

Just now, IU Scott said:

In your opinion he is and just because you say it I does not mean it is a fact.  I just did not like him as a player and grew tired of his act on and off the court.  I also never said VO is a better player but just a better fit for the team concept that the Pacers are implementing.  I will take going forward the combo of VO and Sabonis over PG.

Honestly it's not just my opinion it's where things stand and there's literally no one in the NBA who'd say otherwise. I have no issue -- at all -- with your personal preference of Vic, or your belief that Vic and Sabonis are better for the Pacers in the long term, or your losing respect for PG, those are all your perceptions and they have as much value as anyone else's opinion. You do not need to keep throwing posts my way about my "love affair" with PG, etc., though. I hope Vic continues to grow his game, it's great to see him turning into a young star. 

9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I have never understood your love affair with Paul George.  it seems like you will defend him to your death while most are on a different side than you when it comes to PG.  He is a very good player but it is not like he is a all time great player where he is one of the best of all time.

Just stop it Scott, seriously. It's not a love affair,  and I'm not "defending" him, I'm responding to a post that you're ignoring in yet another post to take a jab. If you want to try to say that Victor Oladipo, as an NBA player, is on Paul George's level -- the post I replied to -- then you'd just be demonstrating a lack of knowledge. That comparison is completely false, and if you follow the NBA at all, you'd know that. What I never understand is why you go out of your way to post stuff like this. Whether you like it or not PG is a top 10-15 player in the League -- or for whatever it's worth, you can call him a top 25 player, who cares. No one would say Vic is a top 10-15 player or top 25 player. He is making a statement to include him as a top 50 player, which is fantastic, and maybe he continues to grow his game into that group of elite players, but he has a ways to go. I hope he gets there, your angst notwithstanding.