Hoosierhoopster

23 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Looking at that or the four rings. Four Rings are a nice blend of enthusiasm and comfort. 

The Four Rings are a nice ride for sure. On the high end, the RS7 is crazy fast. They don't appear to be making the RS5 this year, that's a racy coupe, but the S5 is a fun drive -- colleague of mine had one. If you're looking at buying and not leasing though, Four Rings are ridiculous to maintain, once you're out of warranty, it's like you're sending the car to college. Mercs aren't cheap upkeep either, but they tend to maintain better. Can't go wrong either way though, Four Rings are sweet.

14 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

I respectfully disagree. This was a barometer win because is was the back end of a back to back at Cleveland.   Pavers were 0 and 2 this year on back end.  I believe last year's team would lose that game.  This team is finding ways to close.  Not saying they will even make playoffs but I think this win does tell us a lot

I didn't mean to downplay that it was a good win, just saying I don't think it's a barometer W -- The Cavs have lost 4 straight, they are 3-5. They just lost at home to the Knicks by 19. The simple fact is that Cleveland is playing poorly right now. That's not a slight to the P's -- a road W is a road W -- but it's not a barometer W. 

11 hours ago, Reacher said:

Congrats to the Astros!

Houston needed it! Interesting, after Katrina, New Orleans won the Super Bowl. After Harvey, Houston wins the World Series. Should we hope for a flood in Bloomington?

21 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I guess I've never really discussed what he's done, it isn't relevant to what he is now in my mind. Can you explain why it is?

There's stats that show him out of the top 20 all together. @5fouls posted them on 247 and you got very upset IIRC. One of them is PER. 

Again, this should be simple, rank the NBA players. Stop when you get to PG so we can have an actual discussion and not a strawman. You say he is a clear top 10 guy and elite but consistently refuse to give us a comparison to prove that out. If you can't simply say the guys PG is better than then I'll assume it's because you know he isn't better than as many guys as you'd like for us to believe. 

 

Hmm. How on Earth do you assess a player while ignoring everything he's done? Of course it's relevant!  

I think what you're doing is the opposite -- you looked at one off year (which came after a strong year, and then with Bird's ridiculous roster moves, including Teague), and ignored everything he did before, in order to label him as maybe a top 15 player, which flies in the face of - yes, all he's done. You're trying to paint him based on an off year -- and you're also just disregarding what he did March forward, including the playoffs. That doesn't work.

Lol at the Fouls comment. No, I didn't get upset -- rather, the stats Fouls posted were that one year, only, and as I recall, FW_Hoosier then pointed that out, and pointed out several of his other stats including some I posted above, and then no one responded because there wasn't a response that could deny what FW pointed out.

You know I've posted who I consider top before, right? Didn't I say that the last time you asked me to post them again? Fwiw, I'm not sure I'd say he's a clear top 10 this year, I think he's in the 9-12 range. Gotta run (Go Astros!), but we can pick this up later -- 

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Vic and Sabonis combine for 38 points, 14 boards, and 13 assists, to help the Pacers defeat the Cavs in Cleveland.  And, on the 2nd night of a back-to back to boot.

 

Edit:  And, no...KOB and I are not the same person.  Nor is he one of my ex-wives 

That's great -- particularly because both were off early, Vic was like 2-10, and then they turned it around. Great to see Vic doing so well.

On the flip side, this also isn't a barometer game. Cavs have lost something like 3 straight home games (and to bad teams), I think the longest in LeBron's career. Things are not kosher in Cleveland right now

21 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

And yes, I enjoy your posts too my man. Even those I disagree with about PG and cars. 

I've actually been looking hard at a move to the dark side in cars recently. 

I think we could settle a lot of the disagreement if we could just sit down and have a beer in real life. Then go drive your AMG. 

Now that sounds good! 

The Dark Side - Benz, is calling to you

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

I think the biggest poblem with the conversation is you to believe what he did the two years before the injury are relevant to the player he is today. Besides that being a long time ago, it was a major injury ago. Who cares of John Wall or KAT don't have better numbers in 2013? Both are better now. I actually just named a list of players a few days ago I'd put in front of PG and a list of players he'd fall somewhere in. You didn't respond to that and you continue to refuse to give a list so you can argue straw men. 

If you want a real discussion, tell us your top 10 so we can see who you are leaving out in favor of PG and have a real discussion. That seems incredibly simple so why hasn't it happened?

Straw man. You can't dismiss his obvious top 10-15 stats, so you come back with this. First of all, again, you ignore the stats I posted on his year AFTER the injury. He was outstanding. And yes, what he did in the years leading up to the injury are obviously relevant to what he's done. Then he did it immediately again after the injury. The ONLY bad year for him was last year -- and he, again, as he has every single year of his career, excluding the year he lost to injury, raised his PPG. You can list whoever you want, that doesn't change anything. Your continuing attempts to minimize and disregard don't change a thing, man.

3 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

And a team high 17 shots to get those 20 points. Quintessential PG. 

 

Another? He's 8-17 (4-8 from 3), tell me how that's bad. What is with you guys?

Oh yeah, it's also at the Bucks, and it's now 93-66. What a slacker.

On 10/30/2017 at 7:24 PM, KoB2011 said:

I don't really care if you hate on the Pacers or not. Here are facts I think we can all agree to:

• You have a real disdain for Larry Bird and color your Pacers opinion based on thinking everything he did was bad. 
• You group Paul George in a category very few would (nationally, locally and anywhere inbetween) with elite players. He's top 20, maybe top 15 but not elite like a clear top ten guy such as Curry, Leonard, Durant, James, Harden, Westbrook or Davis. 
• Paul George is no longer on the Pacers and you think that loss is on par with one of those other guys changing teams. 

From my perspective, the combination of this team largely being a result of Larry Bird and Paul George leaving does color your perspective on the Pacers quite a bit. 

Is it possible Victor Oladipo, who coming out of college would've universally been considered the better prospect between he and PG, is closer to PG than you are willing to admit? And that whatever difference there is in the talent is made up for by their attitude? We can even say PG had a terrible attitude that impacted the team 100% because of Bird, but that doesn't change what it was and it doesn't change the Vic absolutely loves being here and being a key part of this team. 

I know you think I'm biased against PG, but I'm the one who ranks him right about where he is considered by most experts and you're the one who has him among the elite group of players that are annual MVP candidates.  I get it, we're talking about maybe your favorite guy in the NBA and your least favorite guy, that makes it hard to take emotion out of it.  

Oh man, come on KoB. You know I appreciate your thoughts and posts, but what is the deal with your revisionist and continuing downgrading of PG? 

Now he's supposedly top 20, "maybe top 15, and nationally, very few would agree with my view of PG, locally and anywhere inbetween? 

First, no one considers PG top 20, "maybe top 15." He is considered by everyone top 15 or better. Geez, when espn did their silly ranking and had him top 13 you came back pointing that out as to why he wasn't top 10. I am going to say this again, whether he's top 10 or top 15 he's one of the best players in the NBA, a "superstar," according to basically everyone besides you. And it is clearly borne out by his stats and what he did for the Pacers, for years, including the year after his injury. Again, those stats include:

In 2015-16, after his injury, 7th in the League in defensive win shares, 10th in ppg, 6th in 3-point FGs, and 11th in VORP. Maybe top 20, seriously? Come on.

Yes, he had a falloff year last year, no question, but of course that came with a stupid roster overhaul including the loss of GH. The Teague experiment was a clear failure. And you're just ignoring what PG did from March 1 forward last year and into the playoffs. He still finished 15th overall in PPG, and 12th in 3-point FGs, and 15th in steals.

Then there's what he did with the Pacers, when despite your continuing attempts to minimize his contributions, he was the lead star against LeBron's NC winning teams. Leading up to and during that time, he was 1

1st overall in defensive win shares (2012-13),

2nd overall in defensive win shares (2013-14),

12th in PPG (2013-14), 10th in 3-point FG's (2012-13),

13th in 3-point FGs (2013-14),

9th in VORP (2012-13 and 2013-14), and

6th and 4th in steals (2012-13 and 2013-14). 

Clearly not elite? Right. You want to name 15 other players during that time period with matching or better stats? He is, hands down, one of the best players in the League, whether you like him or not. And he did all that with the Pacers, and as one of the best two-way players in the League - again, as recognized by everyone except you. And no, I'm not the one who's biased here, I'm not coloring my view of PG because of how badly Larry Bird screwed the pooch on that EC contending team and then fired Vogel -- you think that was a good move?? I really don't get why you are so hell bent on dismissing everything that PG did for the Pacers and what his numbers obviously show and how well regarded, as a superstar, he is throughout the NBA. But the P's have moved on, and their early play, with Vic -- who I will always root for -- is looking great, so why not just enjoy that instead of lambasting PG and my posts about him? BTW, other than our back and forth on PG, which always seems to escalate, I really enjoy your posts. You bring a lot of knowledge and good thoughts.

Meanwhile - nice W for the P's tonight over Sacto

And PG is leading the Thunder right now over a very good Bucks team, 85 - 64 in the 3d, PG with 20 and +16 (both team highs)

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sure you're being hyperbolic, but it isn't 10 times.  Parker is the worst of those four at this point in his career.  Turner is an All-Star level player this year.  Robinson is a very nice piece.  Leonard is the best, clearly, but let's not act like the Pacers aren't missing two starters. 

I don't know about hyperbolic, but no, Robinson is not better than Parker, aged or not. Turner may get there, but that remains to be seen. Leanord is obviously one the League's best, on both ends. Turner was a no show in the playoffs. I get the feeling that every time I post about the Pacers it's taken as some kind of afront, and there has to be a response saying I'm hyperbolic or whatever. That's ok, but I'm not intending to hate on the P's (Larry, yes, P's, no), all I'm saying is we are obviously very early into the 82 game season, and a W over the Spurs, missing those 2, at this point does not signal some fantastic triumph. (And they were down by 9 with under 7 minutes to go.) How about the Pistons? Wins at GS and at Clippers. Again, it's early. Meanwhile, GS is just 4-3, Cleveland is 3-4, etc. You know it's extremely early to try to draw conclusions on how good the P's are. 

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Hoopster.

Have the Spurs and Pacers switch coaches.    Give me your opinion on what that does to the win total of each club.  

Is Pop worth 10 wins?  Using last season as a barometer, add 10 to the Pacers 42 and get 52.  Subtract 10 from the Spurs' 61 and get 51.  

I think we all can agree that Pop is one of the best coaches of all time (maybe THE best).  Nate McMillan is not.  

Are the rosters really that much different, or does Pop just make it seem so?

In regards to Vic/Sabonis versus George, you have two players that potentially are on the upswing versus a player that is likely starting a downswing, or is close to it.

It is entirely possible that Vic can prove this year that he was mis-used in Orlando and not a good fit in OKC.  Will people give him credit?  That remains to be seen.  But, f the stats and the Pacers record warrant it, I have no problem claiming at the end of the season that the Pacers got the better end of the deal

 

Fouls, what? There is no reason, whatsoever, to say PG is starting a downswing. He's in the prime of his career, and for the next several years. Comparing Vic and Sabonis -- and ESPECIALLY after a few early games and ignoring all of last season -- is completely baseless. Those players are on different planets, at this point.

On switching coaches, Pop is worth 10 wins, no question. He's the best coach in the NBA. But even that doesn't get you to add 10 wins to the Pacers win column vs. last season. Do you really think that a few games in, and the Pacers being at 3-3, they're capable of winning North of 50 games?? No way, not happening, no matter who the coach is. If I'm wrong on that I will GLADLY eat crow, but that' pure fantasy.

On a related note, though, look at what Vogel is doing in Orlando right now. He's killing it. He's playing up tempo, and thriving. And Bird, for reasons that are at best illogical, and at worst plain stupid, fired him for an assistant coach who has never been an uptempo coach and never was as successful as Vogel was leading the Pacers. I wonder where the Pacers would be if Larry Legend wasn't mindlessly firing his coach and losing his franchise player, along with others.

Yes, the rosters are that much different. I'm not sure how much you follow the NBA, but the Pacers roster and the Spurs roster are not on equal footing.

It's certainly possible that Vic and Sabonis will demonstrate that they are much better than everyone thought, right now. I hope so, that would be great for the Pacers. But we're 6 games into the regular season. The word premature comes to mind.

16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Pacers were without two key players as well in Turner and Robinson.

Kawhi and Parker ten times what Turner and Robinson bring, but OK! I'm guessing you don't really think the Pacers are on the Spurs level. All I'm saying is a little perspective, nice win, but not one to say indicates that the P's are suddenly some kind of contending team. Here's to hoping they get there. Definitely some nice early showings.

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

Sabonis is 23 for 23 in the 3 Pacer victories. 

That's awesome.

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I think this was a win win for both teams. The Pavers were going no where with PG  at least there is hope .  Now PG will get to play for something. I hated seeing PG go but now I am content with the trade.

Completely fair. I don't agree (at all) with those who think PG somehow didn't give great effort while a Pacer, but he clearly wanted out after things deteriorated and Bird made all those trades and roster moves. I've been a Pacers fan since the 80s -- I hope they grow back into a true EC contender, and love seeing Vic prosper. I also hope PG finds his place and thrives, either in OKC or with the Lakers, if that's really where he wants to be.

58 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Vic <PG 

Vic + Sabonis > PG

 

Disagree, though Sabonis has looked pretty good early. If he can keep up that play, and not disappear like he did just last season, that will be a nice benefit to the Ps.

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

It is the same San Antonio team that came in 4-1 without Leonard.

Sure, and it's early. Parker of course also is not currently playing with the Spurs. Not saying it wasn't a nice come back W for the P's, but it's not a signature win, it's an early season win with the Spurs missing two key players, and one of the top 3-5 players in the League.

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

Not trying to be a homer, and Hayward’s injury has definitely put a damper on some of the expectations, but don’t forget about the Celtics. After the shock of the injury the Celtics have rebounded to win 4 in a row, including 3 on the road. The addition of Tatum and Brown to the starting lineup has really improved the teams rebounding, and Tatum is the real deal. This team is much taller and longer than last years, and while I love IT, Irving is better. Also, Irving and Horford are beginning to develop a really nice chemistry on the pick and roll, and this has all been without Morris, a solid vet. Aaron Baynes has also been a nice addition in terms of defense, toughness and a big that can hit the 10-15 footer  

I don’t see us having a shot at the Finals anymore, but I wouldn’t be shocked if the Celtics are a 3-6 seed and win a round in the playoffs. 

I think Boston will remain in the hunt. At this point, the EC teams that I think will be in the hunt with Boston

Cleveland - completely different team when IT comes back, and Cleveland isn't firing on all cylinders right now.

Wizards - probably the other team to beat in the East

Boston - Top 3-4, also obviously well coached, D will continue to get better, Tatum is really good and you're right, rebounding looks better. I think the Wiz get them this season, but can also see them being #2 again.

Bucks - Greek Freak is in the MVP hunt, they will step up

Toronto - would be surprised if they're not at least top 4

Miami - will likely rebound and build like they did last season, well coached, have the pieces

Detroit - pretty much a playoffs or bust year for them

Pacers/Magic in fight for 8th

13 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

...but it was a terrible trade...Vic isn't near the player that George is...yet.

Really? Come on, you're not really saying Vic is on PG's level, are you? OK I read again, you said yet -- hey, I hope Vic turns into a franchise player, 4-5 time all star, dominant on both ends, but he has a long way to go to get there. At this point, I wouldn't put him in the top 50, but if he keeps growing his game like he's showing now, watch out. Rooting for him.

And don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Vic fan, he's my favorite former Hoosier. But he's nowhere near PG's level -- btw, this was the Spurs without Kawhi Leanord, completely different team, and no, Turner is nowhere near Kawhi, of course. it's really early, Pacers have some nice young pieces, Vic is playing really well, but a little perspective.

33 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

He seems to get worse every year. A few weeks back I was watching an old IU game in the 92 tournament and Buckner was doing the game.  He did a very good job then but he is going downhill lately.

It's odd, maybe he's getting bitter? He used to be terrific (and he remains one of my favorite all time Hoosiers).

57 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

He never carried the Pacers though. He had three other borderline All-Stars in a weak East and lost to the first good team he played. 

Then when he had a chance to carry them, they got dominated back to back years. Spare me what his numbers where or that the games were close, that's Purdue stuff. We got knocked out with no resistance the two years he had a chance to carry us and last year only even made it because of Lance. You can't lose every game you play and dominant a series. 

No man, we've gone over this before, and I just don't get the revisionist history. He was often the leading scorer and was clearly the star. Where were you? I've been, religiously, a Pacers fan since the late 80s. I'm not sitting around looking up national news, and I lived in Indiana until I was in my early 20s. Come on now. Lose every game you play? What? For whatever reason, you are hell bent against Paul George. I get that. 

In the spirit of how positive this board has been since we moved over to this new site, this is where I stop on PG. We're not going to agree!

1 minute ago, hoosierBGH said:

PG has said a lot of things but most of what he said did not fit his actions on or off the court. That great Pacers team that Bird blew up was never going to be better than 2nd in the East to Lebron's teams. Bird realizing this and the way the NBA was trending toward small ball, tried to do something about it , though it didn't work out. Hibbert and PG are perfect representatives of that team, both physically gifted, both talented (though PG clearly more so) and both mentally soft and weak. When faced with adversity they chose to pout and whine instead of digging deeper and working harder. Hibbert's soft play and lack of effort on far too many nights should have earned him being called out long before then. The worst part about it is that Hibbert had the tools and could really bring it when he wanted to, he just didn't want to most of the time. Being the competitor Bird is, I'm surprised he tolerated that crap for as long as he did. The house cleaning was long overdue IMO and trading PG was a big, important part of it.  As Turner's recent comments suggest, Instead of buying in and providing leadership to the young talent being built around him, PG decides to sulk on the court and in the locker room and sabotage his own trade value. Luckily the Thunder were dumb enough to trade for him anyway.

In all fairness, calling PG mentally soft and weak is just your subjective opinion, and one with which I could not disagree more. You don't have the numbers he's had, on both sides of the ball, you don't carry a team like he has, on both sides of the ball, and you don't dominate the playoffs, as he clearly has,  if you're mentally soft and weak. Hibbert, in stark contrast, was not mentally strong, it was his downfall, and it's too bad. Bird's moves were stupid, there's really no way around that, and it's why he ran out the door. The idea that the Thunder were dumb to trade for him, well, OK man. I guess when the Thunder go on their run, largely because of PG coupled with Westbrook, it will be just dumb luck. I don't really get why you go to such lengths to try to undermine what a clearly impactful player PG was and is, he is clearly regarded as one of the top players in the League, because he is. As a Pacers fan, maybe it's just time to move on without all the belittling stuff.

6 hours ago, hoosierBGH said:

PG was never, ever going to stay with the Pacer's long term. He always had one foot out the door. Frankly, the Pacer's are better off long term without him. As the Thunder and likely the Lakers eventually will find out, PG is fools gold. All the talent in the world but not nearly enough heart and way too much self absorption. 

I don't think that's true, and it is contrary to what PG and various players were saying before Bird gutted the Pacers. After Bird traded away everyone, literally everyone PG played with, and the team around him was mediocre at best, then yes, it became clear he was leaving. Don't forget how good that Pacers team was with Hill, West, Hibbert, Granger et al. The downfall began when Bird meaninglessly traded Granger mid-season - when the Pacers had the best record in the League -- for EvanTurner, who couldn't play D against my grandmother and was a terrible fit. Granger was PG's mentor, Bird did the move without even talking to PG or any other player about it, and it pissed PG off, as he has recently confirmed. Bird then went on to belittle Hibbert publicly, for no reason whatsoever, forcing him out and in publicly dissing him making sure that P's got nothing in return, and pissing off West to the point that West left for San Antonio for a $1M deal, leaving something like $10M on the table. West also publicly expressed disgust with the way Bird treated HIbbert. Then Bird trades away, among others, G Hill -- PG's best friend on the team not to mention an outstanding defender and a very good 3-point corner shooter, for Teague -- clearly a failed experiment, after Atlanta wanted Teague gone, and Teague and PG did not gel at all, while Teague pounded the air out of the ball. Meanwhile Bird had brought in Andrew Bynum, and then Monta Ellis. Brilliant moves. 

It's so easy to target PG's attitude. What would his attitude have been if Bird wasn't deconstructing the Conf Finals team and pissing off and trading everyone around PG? Bird destroyed the team, and then ran out the door knowing PG was going to leave. Blame belongs squarely with Bird.

^^ It seems like it's been forever, but way back when it was EJ that the Clips traded to get CPIII. EJ then was looking like a top 2-3 2-guard, but then he was injured every year until last season when he had that great break-out year with Houston. He is back to being incredibly explosive to the rim. Have watched him play live, and man the phrase "down hill" applies so well to his game -- he just explodes to the rim. Now that he's been healthy for some time, I think it's fair to say he is again one of the better 2-guards in the NBA. He's not that strong defensively, but he's no slouch on that end either.

It was great to see Vic have a 'revenge' game against the Thunder, showed a lot of his promise. Here's to hoping he can continue to build on that kind of game. Meanwhile PG had an aberational foul-plagued game. Will be interesting to see how the two teams, and Vic and PG play in the next game. It's really early in the season, but Vic's definitely showing promise. I don't see the P's making the playoffs, but if Turner comes back healthy and Vic continues to ball like this, then just maybe. Keep at it Vic!

1 hour ago, Billingsley99 said:

By no means do I feel PG is clearly top 10. Top 20 maybe. Top 10 players are cold blooded assassins.  They want to be the man and more times than not PG was going through the motions. If he spent as much time getting back on defense as he did yapping with the refs after what he thought a missed call he would be all defensive team every year.  He is a good player that does not want to be the man.  Never hit a game winner.  I would take 2 guys with a chip on their shoulders that play hard and at least look like they want to be here.  I like PG But do not miss him for a second 

You're welcome to your opinion, and I couldn't disagree with you more! The maybe top 20 idea is just unsupportable. Look at the numbers, across the board. Look at how he carried and led the P's to back to back ECF's against LeBron's Cavs. Not getting back on D, while he's 7th in defensive win shares and 6th steals and 11th in VORP in 2015-16, after his injury? All while being 10th in PPG that year?  OK. Assassin? Tell me what his playoff scoring numbers were in 2015-16, and in 2016-17. He flat out dominated. He had a crappy team around him, courtesy of Bird. So I could not disagree with you more, but that's ok.