Hoosierhoopster

Haha, yeah 4 to the P's, my bad. Fwiw, I hope you and KoB end up being right about the P's -- I was disgusted with Bird, but I'm not meaning to hate on the P's, I just think they will end up winning somewhere in the range of 32-37 games, and will look a lot like Orlando. A team that lost its superstar, has some good players, but needs time to rebuild. Turner could end up being a legit all star, but he's not there yet. I hope he gets there.

We've hashed this out so many times now, lol. Look, whether you consider him top 15 (to argue he isn't would be flat out ridiculous) or top 10, does it matter? He's one of the best players in the League, whether top 10 or top 15, and guys like Vic are nowhere in the vicinity of being in that conversation, clearly. He's a franchise player. He led the P's, and very well, in two ECF's against LeBron and company. For years, he led the P's on both sides of the ball. Very few players in the League have done that for their teams. PG took a step back last year, didn't play well until about March, when he went on fire and was clearly a top 10 player, but his slow start hurt his own stats and didn't help the team. Regardless, to the extent we have to look at PG's stats, here's a few Defensive win shares 2012-13 - 1st overall (and 3rd overall in defensive rating) 2013-14 -2nd overall 2015-16 (after his injury) - 7th. 2016-17 - not in top 20 PPG 2013-14 - 12th 2015-16 - 10th 2016-17 - 15th (despite the slow start) 3-Pt FG's 2012-13 - 10th 2013-13 - 13th 2015-16 - 6th 2016-17 - 12th VORP 2012-13 - 9th 2013-14 - 9th 2015-16 11th Steals 2012-13 - 6th 2013-14 - 4th 2015-16 - 6th 2016-17 - 15th And his playoff numbers, when it matters, are often better. He often dominates in the playoffs as he did just this past playoffs. Not liking his attitude is one thing, denying how much he contributes is another. With all of these stats together, he's top 15 in PPG every year since 2013 (minus the year he lost due to that gruesome leg injury -- and despite that gruesome leg injury and losing an entire season, he came back the very next season and had what is clearly a great year. Come on man, you don't have to like him, but he's one of the best players in the League.

Largely how I see it as well. Great move for the Thunder, and the Pacers ended up doing well in a bad situation, it clearly was not an even trade, but could well be a win win. I don't think the P's will compete for the 8th seed, but it is a weak conference and the Bulls are ruined, so maybe.

I can't say at this point. PG made clear he wants to go "home" to pay for the Lakers. After the way Bird flubbed everyone and ruined the Pacers, I frankly cannot and do not blame PG for leaving, at all. No other franchise (well, maybe Sacramento....) would be so ridiculously stupid in the way they treat their franchise player. Bird is a self-centered, stubborn fool. Now if the Thunder end up excelling (after some gel time) and do well, I think PG could well stay with the Thunder -- he wants to win. As to what the Pacers got, I love Vic, probably my favorite Hoosier ever, but he's clearly not on PG's level, he's not a franchise player, and we're 3 games into an 82 game season. I hope he excels, I'm rooting for him, and I hope he works out for the Pacers, but the Pacers have more building to do.

Well, no, I don't. We've gone through PG's stats several times now, he's a top 10 player and clearly played "like it" as a Pacer. Bird ruined the team, trading away or losing everyone (literally, everyone) around him and then bringing in Teague, another failed trade in dealing G Hill. PG was fully on track to taking Reggie's spot as the greatest Pacer ever. You don't like his personality, I get it, but I couldn't disagree with you more on his impact, and there isn't a team in the League that wouldn't love to have him. No offense intended, but your thinking this is a 45-50 win team shows your fandom, my friend. This is not a 45-50 win team. We're 3 games into an 82 game season. Butler didn't play with the Wolves, and it's one regular season game. I'm not rooting for the Pacers to fail, but I'm certainly not going to see them as one of the better teams in the League, they're not. They may end up middle of the pack. Happy to compare notes at the end of the season. As to whether PG works with the Thunder, way too early to tell. I wasn't that high on Melo being added to the Thunder, but it's also way too early to tell if that will work. Russ, PG and Melo are all high usage guys who are used to playing the key role in crunch time. That team could be a top 3-5 team, in the West, and it also could end up failing. It will be interesting to watch how the Thunder develop.

Naah, winning the PG trade? If you really believe that, and after a couple early games, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Your fandom, and disenchantment with PG, has the better of you. The Pacers are not a playoff team, but how they develop with their new core group, including Vic, will be fun to watch.

Vic going off tonight on the T Wolves - 10-14 (2-3 from arc) for 26 points in the 4th, 3 boards, 1 steal, 3 assists (3 TO's)

OG's first game tonight -- played 17 minutes in a W against Chicago, 3-6, and 1-3 from the arc for 9 points, 3 boards, 2 assists, 0 TO's, and +26 plus-minus (lead the team). Way to go OG!

That sucks. Hopefully he does. Follow up on NBA radio was that it doesn't mean he won't be healed but since it's his leg/ankle he won't be in shape even if healthy by March, and he'd have to be able to get in full game shape starting in March, assuming that's when the leg is healthy, and his camp/agent and the team may not want to push it, since he'll have already missed the bulk of the season.

Good to see! 6-12 for 22, 8-10 from the stripe, 5 boards, 4 assists, 4 steals to 3 TO's. It was the Nets, but def a good start!

That's fair, and certainly subject to reasonable disagreement. I just don't think the C's are that much better -- remains to be tested through the year, though I'm including with Hayward. On the flip side of your points, IT was not with Cleveland, and Cleveland was dominating the game, and then let the C's back in it (fair to say both teams were probably affected by that injury, and LeBron did go back into the locker room to check on Hayward), and then won it anyway. Will be interesting to see how IT does with Cleveland when he's back. Have to think he makes them better. In any event, I'm pulling for Hayward's return, as projected. Really sucked to see him get injured like that. On the LeBron thing, it will also be interesting to see if he's fully invested in this team, or if he has one foot out the door. If he's not fully invested, maybe that will open a door or two this year.

NBA radio this morning, with follow-up from a doc. Tibia break was supposedly clean, as was the ankle dislocation, with a suggested time frame of 3-4 months. A tibia break wouldn't seem to be a big deal, this was not a Paul George level injury. The gruesome part was the way the ankle looked -- but that was the dislocation, which is really not that bad an injury. PG's leg break was easily worse.

^^ Continue to hear good news about the ankle dislocation and the fracture. All reports so far indicate he should be back in 3-4 months, and it's been noted that some NFL players have come back from the same injury in weeks, crazy as that sounds. It's looking much better than PG's injury, and he should play this year. Have to say in fairness Gleas, the C's realistically weren't going to beat Cleveland anyway this year. Challenge them, sure, but beat them, don't see it. The way LeBron took over yet again last night was, like your guy Scalabrine said, the same -- Boston hasn't closed the gap on LeBron, and having Hayward healthy wouldn't do that, this year. But man the future looks bright for your C's, Tatum really impressed, and they're probably going to be the team to beat (in the East) in another year or so.

Really too bad about Hayward, awful looking injury and in less than 6 minutes with Boston. Hope he can come back like PG did.

Fully agreed. He is just back up and running after his ACL injury. It's too bad he was hurt (and at one point sick) for much of the limited time he played last year.

That off the dribble move is very much like Kawhi. The comparisons continue. Strong move.

Some Cody Zeller love in Zack Lowe's (espn) 32 crazy NBA predictions: Cody Zeller wins his starting spot back from Dwight Howard Charlotte will resist as long as possible. The Hornets have invested sweat equity in Howard. Steve Clifford loves him. They have concerns about Zeller's ability to bang every night with enemy starting centers. Howard is not the sort of player who offers more value as a reserve, and the Hornets might lose him if they go this route. But it feels kind of inevitable. Zeller is an eager-beaver, rough-housing screen-setter who fits well with Kemba Walker and Nicolas Batum. He's faster diving from the arc to the rim than Howard, and has improved his finishing. He will not demand post touches, or pout when he doesn't get them. He can't touch Howard as an individual rebounder, but he's one of those Nene/Roy Hibbert types who boxes out so teammates can get the statistical credit. Charlotte was an elite defensive rebounding team with Zeller, anyway. The Hornets famously plummeted to 3-17 without him last season. That wasn't all about Zeller, obviously. It was about the, umm, quality of his backups, and the rest of a thin roster. But something about his game clicks. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21002422/zach-lowe-32-crazy-nba-predictions-2017-18

Yogi's game last night v. the Hawks, as starting, playing 21 minutes: 5-9 for 11 points, 5 assists (2 TOs), 1 steal, +8 on the night (first among starters). Once again, solid. Dennis Smith starting next to Yogi: 4-9 for 9 points, 3 assists (2 TO's), 1 board in 13 minutes. Should be a fun backcourt to watch.

Awesome to hear. Rooting for OG big time, and if he stays healthy, I do think he can be a really good NBA player. Has all the tools, is very good defensively, and can score from the arc and wing. Will be interesting to see if he develops similar to Kawhi (I don't mean as good as Kawhi but similar player type), to whom he's often been compared.

Good news!

With Seth Curry out indefinitely with a tibia stress injury, Yogi is now expected to start for the Mavs -- http://www.espn.com/blog/nba/rumors/post/_/id/45291/rumor-central-bigger-role-for-yogi-ferrell-with-seth-curry-sidelined Pre-season so far: Game 1 v Bucks: 10 assists, in 16 minutes (!) off the bench GAme 2 v. Bulls: 10 points (4-6), 3 assists, 2 boards in 18 minutes off the bench Game 3 v. Magic: 12 points (4-9), 4 boards, 3 assists, in 15 mins off the bench. Solid.

I think you're going to be really disappointed. The Pacers are a shell of what they were. No way they're a playoff team. I get that people have different opinions about PG, but man he's a legit superstar. No one else on the P's is anywhere near picking up that role, or competing at the top. They're in rebuild mode.

^^ I can't see how the Pacers will be competitive any time soon. Most are projecting the P's as the second to worst, or close to it, team in the NBA next season. Bird really ruined the Pacers. It's such a shame, they had real promise, but he managed to trade away or lose almost everyone, pissed off his key players, and lost the P's franchise player in the process. I'm sorry, but he's truly an idiot, and an incredibly stubborn one at that. Then he ran out the door, knowing that PG was going to leave. Turner might become a legit all star. He has the makings of one, his numbers are certainly there at this stage of his young career. But he is nowhere close to carrying that team as a playoff team. I'm very interested to see how Vic fits in, and whether he can take the next step in his young NBA career to show he can be a consistent, legit high-level NBA player. He was starting to show it, but it didn't work out for him with Westbrook. I don't think he's ready to be a key piece in a contending team, but I do think he has the potential to be one. Maybe a Lou Williams type, or an EJ type down the road (not as a shooter, but comparable impact as a scorer), with the ability to be a good two-way player. Then the P's need more pieces. And probably some luck in the draft. They're rebuilding. Stars don't go to IN to play. They had Reggie, they had PG (and Granger in between), now they'll need a new franchise-level player. I don't think Turner is going to be that player, but I'd love to be wrong. I think they'll need to land a franchise-level player, and grow into a contender again.

There was a lot of talk here that Westbrook, in inking a short-term deal last year, was going to leave the Thunder and that he and PG were likely to the Lakers next summer. Now, with Westbrook inking a 5-year deal, the largest in NBA history, the landscape for next summer just changed and probably significantly. What a development for the Thunder, after so recently losing Durant. PG now saying that Westbrook's decision definitely will play a big role in his decision next summer. Will Melo back off his high ball usage to play more of a facilitator role? Can he be somewhat like Bosh was with Wade and LeBron (different stages of career, but maybe somewhat comparable to how to succeed)? How will "I have to be the Man" Kyrie do, and Hayward in Boston? Will they be better, or worse, or end up basically the same? How important was IT to Boston's success? How is IT's hip? How will he do in Cleveland, and what kind of role and impact will Wade play now that he's rejoined LeBron? Will Wade be the man off the bench, or will he demand a starting role? Or will Rose be the backup point with IT starting at as primary handler? Will that team be better or worse after Kyrie? And what about CPIII with Harden and the Rockets? Will CPIII move to more of a shooting guard role, or will Harden slide back? Which one of them can play less with the ball in their hands? My pick there - CPIII, don't think Harden can relinquish his demand to have the ball in his hands particularly in the 4th, but we'll see. Will that work out? Are the Rockets now ready to challenge the Warriors? Can anyone actually challenge the Warriors? Will the Spurs somehow remain a top 3-5 team despite that seemingly bad off-season, or will they now drop a bit? Can Pop work his usual magic? What about Butler and company in Minn? Is that team now ready to challenge for top 5-10 in the League? Is Lonzo Ball going to show he can develop a consistent shot at the NBA level, or will his weird and low shot form catch up to him? Will the Lakers under Magic start to show that showtime play again, with Ball, or is this all more form over substance? Can the Lakers lure PG and possibly LeBron next season? Really interesting season coming

Heard this interview, quoted here -- PG and Melo were part of a done deal to Cleveland, for draft night, but then got called off on draft night -- appears Cleveland pulled the plug. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20848842/carmelo-anthony-talks-oklahoma-city-thunder-trade-nixed-houston-rockets-cleveland-cavaliers-swaps