Hoosierhoopster

Disagree, though Sabonis has looked pretty good early. If he can keep up that play, and not disappear like he did just last season, that will be a nice benefit to the Ps.

Sure, and it's early. Parker of course also is not currently playing with the Spurs. Not saying it wasn't a nice come back W for the P's, but it's not a signature win, it's an early season win with the Spurs missing two key players, and one of the top 3-5 players in the League.

I think Boston will remain in the hunt. At this point, the EC teams that I think will be in the hunt with Boston Cleveland - completely different team when IT comes back, and Cleveland isn't firing on all cylinders right now. Wizards - probably the other team to beat in the East Boston - Top 3-4, also obviously well coached, D will continue to get better, Tatum is really good and you're right, rebounding looks better. I think the Wiz get them this season, but can also see them being #2 again. Bucks - Greek Freak is in the MVP hunt, they will step up Toronto - would be surprised if they're not at least top 4 Miami - will likely rebound and build like they did last season, well coached, have the pieces Detroit - pretty much a playoffs or bust year for them Pacers/Magic in fight for 8th

Really? Come on, you're not really saying Vic is on PG's level, are you? OK I read again, you said yet -- hey, I hope Vic turns into a franchise player, 4-5 time all star, dominant on both ends, but he has a long way to go to get there. At this point, I wouldn't put him in the top 50, but if he keeps growing his game like he's showing now, watch out. Rooting for him. And don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Vic fan, he's my favorite former Hoosier. But he's nowhere near PG's level -- btw, this was the Spurs without Kawhi Leanord, completely different team, and no, Turner is nowhere near Kawhi, of course. it's really early, Pacers have some nice young pieces, Vic is playing really well, but a little perspective.

It's odd, maybe he's getting bitter? He used to be terrific (and he remains one of my favorite all time Hoosiers).

No man, we've gone over this before, and I just don't get the revisionist history. He was often the leading scorer and was clearly the star. Where were you? I've been, religiously, a Pacers fan since the late 80s. I'm not sitting around looking up national news, and I lived in Indiana until I was in my early 20s. Come on now. Lose every game you play? What? For whatever reason, you are hell bent against Paul George. I get that. In the spirit of how positive this board has been since we moved over to this new site, this is where I stop on PG. We're not going to agree!

In all fairness, calling PG mentally soft and weak is just your subjective opinion, and one with which I could not disagree more. You don't have the numbers he's had, on both sides of the ball, you don't carry a team like he has, on both sides of the ball, and you don't dominate the playoffs, as he clearly has, if you're mentally soft and weak. Hibbert, in stark contrast, was not mentally strong, it was his downfall, and it's too bad. Bird's moves were stupid, there's really no way around that, and it's why he ran out the door. The idea that the Thunder were dumb to trade for him, well, OK man. I guess when the Thunder go on their run, largely because of PG coupled with Westbrook, it will be just dumb luck. I don't really get why you go to such lengths to try to undermine what a clearly impactful player PG was and is, he is clearly regarded as one of the top players in the League, because he is. As a Pacers fan, maybe it's just time to move on without all the belittling stuff.

I don't think that's true, and it is contrary to what PG and various players were saying before Bird gutted the Pacers. After Bird traded away everyone, literally everyone PG played with, and the team around him was mediocre at best, then yes, it became clear he was leaving. Don't forget how good that Pacers team was with Hill, West, Hibbert, Granger et al. The downfall began when Bird meaninglessly traded Granger mid-season - when the Pacers had the best record in the League -- for EvanTurner, who couldn't play D against my grandmother and was a terrible fit. Granger was PG's mentor, Bird did the move without even talking to PG or any other player about it, and it pissed PG off, as he has recently confirmed. Bird then went on to belittle Hibbert publicly, for no reason whatsoever, forcing him out and in publicly dissing him making sure that P's got nothing in return, and pissing off West to the point that West left for San Antonio for a $1M deal, leaving something like $10M on the table. West also publicly expressed disgust with the way Bird treated HIbbert. Then Bird trades away, among others, G Hill -- PG's best friend on the team not to mention an outstanding defender and a very good 3-point corner shooter, for Teague -- clearly a failed experiment, after Atlanta wanted Teague gone, and Teague and PG did not gel at all, while Teague pounded the air out of the ball. Meanwhile Bird had brought in Andrew Bynum, and then Monta Ellis. Brilliant moves. It's so easy to target PG's attitude. What would his attitude have been if Bird wasn't deconstructing the Conf Finals team and pissing off and trading everyone around PG? Bird destroyed the team, and then ran out the door knowing PG was going to leave. Blame belongs squarely with Bird.

^^ It seems like it's been forever, but way back when it was EJ that the Clips traded to get CPIII. EJ then was looking like a top 2-3 2-guard, but then he was injured every year until last season when he had that great break-out year with Houston. He is back to being incredibly explosive to the rim. Have watched him play live, and man the phrase "down hill" applies so well to his game -- he just explodes to the rim. Now that he's been healthy for some time, I think it's fair to say he is again one of the better 2-guards in the NBA. He's not that strong defensively, but he's no slouch on that end either.

It was great to see Vic have a 'revenge' game against the Thunder, showed a lot of his promise. Here's to hoping he can continue to build on that kind of game. Meanwhile PG had an aberational foul-plagued game. Will be interesting to see how the two teams, and Vic and PG play in the next game. It's really early in the season, but Vic's definitely showing promise. I don't see the P's making the playoffs, but if Turner comes back healthy and Vic continues to ball like this, then just maybe. Keep at it Vic!

You're welcome to your opinion, and I couldn't disagree with you more! The maybe top 20 idea is just unsupportable. Look at the numbers, across the board. Look at how he carried and led the P's to back to back ECF's against LeBron's Cavs. Not getting back on D, while he's 7th in defensive win shares and 6th steals and 11th in VORP in 2015-16, after his injury? All while being 10th in PPG that year? OK. Assassin? Tell me what his playoff scoring numbers were in 2015-16, and in 2016-17. He flat out dominated. He had a crappy team around him, courtesy of Bird. So I could not disagree with you more, but that's ok.

Haha, yeah 4 to the P's, my bad. Fwiw, I hope you and KoB end up being right about the P's -- I was disgusted with Bird, but I'm not meaning to hate on the P's, I just think they will end up winning somewhere in the range of 32-37 games, and will look a lot like Orlando. A team that lost its superstar, has some good players, but needs time to rebuild. Turner could end up being a legit all star, but he's not there yet. I hope he gets there.

We've hashed this out so many times now, lol. Look, whether you consider him top 15 (to argue he isn't would be flat out ridiculous) or top 10, does it matter? He's one of the best players in the League, whether top 10 or top 15, and guys like Vic are nowhere in the vicinity of being in that conversation, clearly. He's a franchise player. He led the P's, and very well, in two ECF's against LeBron and company. For years, he led the P's on both sides of the ball. Very few players in the League have done that for their teams. PG took a step back last year, didn't play well until about March, when he went on fire and was clearly a top 10 player, but his slow start hurt his own stats and didn't help the team. Regardless, to the extent we have to look at PG's stats, here's a few Defensive win shares 2012-13 - 1st overall (and 3rd overall in defensive rating) 2013-14 -2nd overall 2015-16 (after his injury) - 7th. 2016-17 - not in top 20 PPG 2013-14 - 12th 2015-16 - 10th 2016-17 - 15th (despite the slow start) 3-Pt FG's 2012-13 - 10th 2013-13 - 13th 2015-16 - 6th 2016-17 - 12th VORP 2012-13 - 9th 2013-14 - 9th 2015-16 11th Steals 2012-13 - 6th 2013-14 - 4th 2015-16 - 6th 2016-17 - 15th And his playoff numbers, when it matters, are often better. He often dominates in the playoffs as he did just this past playoffs. Not liking his attitude is one thing, denying how much he contributes is another. With all of these stats together, he's top 15 in PPG every year since 2013 (minus the year he lost due to that gruesome leg injury -- and despite that gruesome leg injury and losing an entire season, he came back the very next season and had what is clearly a great year. Come on man, you don't have to like him, but he's one of the best players in the League.

Largely how I see it as well. Great move for the Thunder, and the Pacers ended up doing well in a bad situation, it clearly was not an even trade, but could well be a win win. I don't think the P's will compete for the 8th seed, but it is a weak conference and the Bulls are ruined, so maybe.

I can't say at this point. PG made clear he wants to go "home" to pay for the Lakers. After the way Bird flubbed everyone and ruined the Pacers, I frankly cannot and do not blame PG for leaving, at all. No other franchise (well, maybe Sacramento....) would be so ridiculously stupid in the way they treat their franchise player. Bird is a self-centered, stubborn fool. Now if the Thunder end up excelling (after some gel time) and do well, I think PG could well stay with the Thunder -- he wants to win. As to what the Pacers got, I love Vic, probably my favorite Hoosier ever, but he's clearly not on PG's level, he's not a franchise player, and we're 3 games into an 82 game season. I hope he excels, I'm rooting for him, and I hope he works out for the Pacers, but the Pacers have more building to do.

Well, no, I don't. We've gone through PG's stats several times now, he's a top 10 player and clearly played "like it" as a Pacer. Bird ruined the team, trading away or losing everyone (literally, everyone) around him and then bringing in Teague, another failed trade in dealing G Hill. PG was fully on track to taking Reggie's spot as the greatest Pacer ever. You don't like his personality, I get it, but I couldn't disagree with you more on his impact, and there isn't a team in the League that wouldn't love to have him. No offense intended, but your thinking this is a 45-50 win team shows your fandom, my friend. This is not a 45-50 win team. We're 3 games into an 82 game season. Butler didn't play with the Wolves, and it's one regular season game. I'm not rooting for the Pacers to fail, but I'm certainly not going to see them as one of the better teams in the League, they're not. They may end up middle of the pack. Happy to compare notes at the end of the season. As to whether PG works with the Thunder, way too early to tell. I wasn't that high on Melo being added to the Thunder, but it's also way too early to tell if that will work. Russ, PG and Melo are all high usage guys who are used to playing the key role in crunch time. That team could be a top 3-5 team, in the West, and it also could end up failing. It will be interesting to watch how the Thunder develop.

Naah, winning the PG trade? If you really believe that, and after a couple early games, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Your fandom, and disenchantment with PG, has the better of you. The Pacers are not a playoff team, but how they develop with their new core group, including Vic, will be fun to watch.

Vic going off tonight on the T Wolves - 10-14 (2-3 from arc) for 26 points in the 4th, 3 boards, 1 steal, 3 assists (3 TO's)

OG's first game tonight -- played 17 minutes in a W against Chicago, 3-6, and 1-3 from the arc for 9 points, 3 boards, 2 assists, 0 TO's, and +26 plus-minus (lead the team). Way to go OG!

That sucks. Hopefully he does. Follow up on NBA radio was that it doesn't mean he won't be healed but since it's his leg/ankle he won't be in shape even if healthy by March, and he'd have to be able to get in full game shape starting in March, assuming that's when the leg is healthy, and his camp/agent and the team may not want to push it, since he'll have already missed the bulk of the season.

Good to see! 6-12 for 22, 8-10 from the stripe, 5 boards, 4 assists, 4 steals to 3 TO's. It was the Nets, but def a good start!

That's fair, and certainly subject to reasonable disagreement. I just don't think the C's are that much better -- remains to be tested through the year, though I'm including with Hayward. On the flip side of your points, IT was not with Cleveland, and Cleveland was dominating the game, and then let the C's back in it (fair to say both teams were probably affected by that injury, and LeBron did go back into the locker room to check on Hayward), and then won it anyway. Will be interesting to see how IT does with Cleveland when he's back. Have to think he makes them better. In any event, I'm pulling for Hayward's return, as projected. Really sucked to see him get injured like that. On the LeBron thing, it will also be interesting to see if he's fully invested in this team, or if he has one foot out the door. If he's not fully invested, maybe that will open a door or two this year.

NBA radio this morning, with follow-up from a doc. Tibia break was supposedly clean, as was the ankle dislocation, with a suggested time frame of 3-4 months. A tibia break wouldn't seem to be a big deal, this was not a Paul George level injury. The gruesome part was the way the ankle looked -- but that was the dislocation, which is really not that bad an injury. PG's leg break was easily worse.

^^ Continue to hear good news about the ankle dislocation and the fracture. All reports so far indicate he should be back in 3-4 months, and it's been noted that some NFL players have come back from the same injury in weeks, crazy as that sounds. It's looking much better than PG's injury, and he should play this year. Have to say in fairness Gleas, the C's realistically weren't going to beat Cleveland anyway this year. Challenge them, sure, but beat them, don't see it. The way LeBron took over yet again last night was, like your guy Scalabrine said, the same -- Boston hasn't closed the gap on LeBron, and having Hayward healthy wouldn't do that, this year. But man the future looks bright for your C's, Tatum really impressed, and they're probably going to be the team to beat (in the East) in another year or so.

Really too bad about Hayward, awful looking injury and in less than 6 minutes with Boston. Hope he can come back like PG did.