Wichita State post game thread

[BobSaccamanno]

We will see how UCLA handles their search.  That would be a comparable barometer.

Archie has potential, but it's a stone cold lock that Marshall is better today IMO (not disrespecting your opinion but I just don't see any way Archie is as good as Marshall right now).  Archie has to time to improve. I am hoping he will improve in time.  But he cannot be stubborn the way Crean was.  Crean was stuck in neutral because he was in denial about the shortcomings to his approach.  

Archie has time and as I said above, I am not holding anything against him right now.  I like his attitude.  But, there were some deficiencies this year that we can watch and see if they become trends.  Right now the sample size is too small.  

[bluegrassIU]

43 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Did Gregg truly want the Texas job as rumored?

Texas and IU were two of a small handful of programs he would even have considered. So I do not know 100% for sure. But it fits.

Also, want may be a bit much. Interest, like with IU seems more likely.

But i am not rock solid on the Texas angle  if anything was discussed or not.

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

We will see how UCLA handles their search.  That would be a comparable barometer.

Archie has potential, but it's a stone cold lock that Marshall is better today IMO (not disrespecting your opinion but I just don't see any way Archie is as good as Marshall right now).  Archie has to time to improve. I am hoping he will improve in time.  But he cannot be stubborn the way Crean was.  Crean was stuck in neutral because he was in denial about the shortcomings to his approach.  

Archie has time and as I said above, I am not holding anything against him right now.  I like his attitude.  But, there were some deficiencies this year that we can watch and see if they become trends.  Right now the sample size is too small.  

I didn't necessarily mean who the better coach is today, Marshall is 16 years older and has 11 years of experience on Archie. I'm talking about the quality of the hire. There are definitely analyst/media people that viewed Archie as at least on par, if not a better hire than Marshall. Again "hire" is the key word. There were no elite, established coaches really available, and I wouldn't put Marshall in that category. Maybe as strictly a basketball coach, but there's so much more to being the coach at IU than just the X's and O's on the court. 

Also, while we're talking about Marshall, it took him 5 seasons to get at Wichita to make an NCAA Tournament, and it took him 3 to even make an NIT.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

18 minutes ago, BGleas said:

What elite established coach are you getting? There weren't really any available. It's not some stone-cold lock opinion that Marshall would have been a better hire than Archie, given factors like age, Marshall's temperament, etc.  

Yep, let’s not forget the Canada thing 

[Zuckerkorn]

14 minutes ago, BGleas said:

What elite established coach are you getting? There weren't really any available. It's not some stone-cold lock opinion that Marshall would have been a better hire than Archie, given factors like age, Marshall's temperament, etc.  

I'll take it a step further: how often does an elite coach move to another team? Roy Williams is probably the only one and that was largely due to UNC being his alma mater.

Coaches that have won a NC have almost no reason to change schools.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Interesting.  That would be news to me.  

You’ve got news! 

[Hoosierhoopster]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I didn't necessarily mean who the better coach is today, Marshall is 16 years older and has 11 years of experience on Archie. I'm talking about the quality of the hire. There are definitely analyst/media people that viewed Archie as at least on par, if not a better hire than Marshall. Again "hire" is the key word. There were no elite, established coaches really available, and I wouldn't put Marshall in that category. Maybe as strictly a basketball coach, but there's so much more to being the coach at IU than just the X's and O's on the court. 

Also, while we're talking about Marshall, it took him 5 seasons to get at Wichita to make an NCAA Tournament, and it took him 3 to even make an NIT.  

This.

IU invested in CAM.

Not only is he fairly young, this is just year 2, he hasn’t built his team with his recruits — that is absolutely key — and that’s not even considering the ridiculous number of injuries and health issues our team had this season. 

Come on guys, if you’re actually questioning CAM based on his first 2 years at IU all I can say is be patient, reserve judgment for at least another year and really at least 2.

Go look up how coaches — many of the current top coaches — did in the first few years at their respective schools. I am as impatient as the next guy, but the fact is it’s usually a few seasons, with the coach’s own recruits building his team, before a new coach has real success.

And of course there are exceptions, and maybe CAM won’t rise to the level at IU that people expect or want, but we’re just not there, we’re not in position to be saying he’s not the guy, and he may well get IU rolling in the next couple seasons 

[Zlinedavid]

26 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I was told that IU was not willing to pay elite money.

IU does pay elite money.  In what universe is $3.25M not considered "elite"?  That's 13th in the nation.  And of the 12 coaches getting paid more than Archie, 6 have won national titles (Calipari, K, Izzo, Self, Williams, Wright) and 3 have at least been to a Final Four (Huggins, Beilein, Marshall). 

If you were curious, the other 3: Mack (who was going into a potential trainwreck, which required a premium, like us with Crean), Tony Bennett and....Larry Krystowiak (yeah, that one caught me off guard too). 

[Zlinedavid]

12 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

I'll take it a step further: how often does an elite coach move to another team? Roy Williams is probably the only one and that was largely due to UNC being his alma mater.

Coaches that have won a NC have almost no reason to change schools.

Out of programs commonly considered the "blue bloods", only two coaches have been at more than one: Roy, and Larry Brown (UCLA and Kansas)(Aside: I think IU is one of the few places he hasn't coached). 

Rick Pitino is the only coach to win a national championship at more than one....oh, wait.  Never mind.

[BobSaccamanno]

6 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

IU does pay elite money.  In what universe is $3.25M not considered "elite"?  That's 13th in the nation.  And of the 12 coaches getting paid more than Archie, 6 have won national titles (Calipari, K, Izzo, Self, Williams, Wright) and 3 have at least been to a Final Four (Huggins, Beilein, Marshall). 

If you were curious, the other 3: Mack (who was going into a potential trainwreck, which required a premium, like us with Crean), Tony Bennett and....Larry Krystowiak (yeah, that one caught me off guard too). 

Sorry, but we are defining elite money quite differently.  The coaches at the top of the rung make double and triple of what Archie makes.  If IU needed to pay Marshall or Bennett $6.5 or $7 M to make a move and then didn't, IU didn't pay elite money.  

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, BobSaccamanno said:

Sorry, but we are defining elite money quite differently.  The coaches at the top of the run make double and triple of what Archie makes.  If IU needed to pay Marshall or Bennett $6.5 or $7 M to make a move and then didn't, IU didn't pay elite money.  

Without looking, just in your initial perception, how many coaches do you think make double or more what Archie Miller makes?

[Zlinedavid]

2 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Sorry, but we are defining elite money quite differently.  The coaches at the top of the run make double and triple of what Archie makes.  If IU needed to pay Marshall or Bennett $6.5 or $7 M to make a move and then didn't, IU didn't pay elite money.  

Also, the reason Bennett turned the job down before Crean, and the reason that $16M a year wouldn't move him: Bad blood between the Bennett family and IU, over the firing of his sister Kathi.  That one...ain't happening.  Period. 

[BobSaccamanno]

It doesn't matter.  What matters is what IU needed to pony up to get a top coach to come here.  That's my point.  You're on a tangent.

Look, it's not pleasant to hear.  But, IU is not willing to break the bank to entice a big coach here.  That's the discussion point from my point of view.  From your analysis, yes, I think IU could do better than 13th but Archie hasn't earned being paid above 13th yet.

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, Zlinedavid said:

Also, the reason Bennett turned the job down before Crean, and the reason that $16M a year wouldn't move him: Bad blood between the Bennett family and IU, over the firing of his sister Kathi.  That one...ain't happening.  Period. 

Sorry, but you don't know that.  The characters from then are gone.  Unless you think like a dinosaur like Knight, if you have a new administration, what the old administration did is irrelevant.  It would have taken more money than IU has been willing to pay.  The current administration could put a big number out there with a huge guarantee and give him a commitment with X, Y, and Z.  It's not as simple as "IU fired my sister so I am taking my ball home."

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

It doesn't matter.  What matters is what IU needed to pony up to get a top coach to come here.  That's my point.  You're on a tangent.

The point I'm trying to make is that your perception of what top coaches make is skewed.  BTW, the answer is 2.  There are only two coaches at the moment that make double or more what Archie makes: K and Cal. 

Now, just picture if we were paying Tony Bennett $4.5M a year.  He's made the 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament twice in nine years.  Had only a .500 record after 2 years with no postseason appearances. And then there was that little incident last year with UM-Baltimore County......

He's lucky he has a tolerant (some might say appreciative) fanbase, because there are IU fans that would have been burning him in effigy. 

Is that what you want to spend your "elite" money on? Because odds are, that's what it would bring. 

[Zlinedavid]

10 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Sorry, but you don't know that.  The characters from then are gone.  Unless you think like a dinosaur like Knight, if you have a new administration, what the old administration did is irrelevant.  It would have taken more money than IU has been willing to pay.  The current administration could put a big number out there with a huge guarantee and give him a commitment with X, Y, and Z.  It's not as simple as "IU fired my sister so I am taking my ball home."

Believe what you want to believe.  Also, some people hold grudges for odd reasons. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

Zline's points are valid, as are his facts on what other schools are actually paying and whom.

It's just not all about money. The question here is whether IU made a good investment in CAM (who is earning plenty, and relatively), and that question is going to be open for at least another season or two. We swept MSU, we showed strong overall play and good coaching down the stretch in a number of games this season and including when we had a full squad. We also had a horrible losing streak, but that also coincided with missing players, etc.

I have my own questions about the offensive side of the ball, but we did not have outside shooting, period, this year. We did have a recruit/player in Hunter, who might've provided some of that. I'm interested to see how CAM continues to recruit, how our offense develops with floor - spacing shooting, and including how CAM utilizes the 3-ball as he has his own recruits in place, and how 'hard nosed' we play, with his own recruits in place. Time will tell. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Sorry, but we are defining elite money quite differently.  The coaches at the top of the rung make double and triple of what Archie makes.  If IU needed to pay Marshall or Bennett $6.5 or $7 M to make a move and then didn't, IU didn't pay elite money.  

But is IU in a different position right now if Bennett was hired for $7M? Cam's results in his first two years at IU are better than Bennett's first two years at Virginia. They're both coaches that need time to implement a system and recruit their players. We might not even have had Langford if Bennett was hired, outside of Kyle Guy he doesn't exactly swoop in a grab a ton of highly rated recruits. 

There's a chance Archie ends up just as good as Bennett. He's thought of in similar ways, in terms of when Bennett was at Washington State, by the experts. 

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, BGleas said:

There's a chance Archie ends up just as good as Bennett. He's thought of in similar ways, in terms of when Bennett was at Washington State, by the experts. 

And they're both practitioners of the pack line defense. 

[Madison22]

2 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

Without looking, just in your initial perception, how many coaches do you think make double or more what Archie Miller makes?

One makes almost but not quite triple ($9 mil to Duke Rat Face).  Two make $7 to $8 million.  $4 million a year lands you in the top 7, as of last year.  Archie and John Beilein are about the same at $3.2 to $3.4 million.

https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/sports/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-14774331

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, Madison22 said:

One makes almost but not quite triple ($9 mil to Duke Rat Face).  Two make $7 to $8 million.  $4 million a year lands you in the top 7, as of last year.  Archie and John Beilein are about the same at $3.2 to $3.4 million.

https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/sports/highest-paid-college-basketball-coaches-14774331

Hmmmm....some discrepancies between that and the source I used:

https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

[BobSaccamanno]

I did not look up your numbers but from what I read someplace, K is at $9.8 M, hence my triple reference.  There can be multiple sources of revenue and some lists may not recognize summer camp money, radio show money, etc.

 

[BobSaccamanno]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Zline's points are valid, as are his facts on what other schools are actually paying and whom.

It's just not all about money. The question here is whether IU made a good investment in CAM (who is earning plenty, and relatively), and that question is going to be open for at least another season or two. We swept MSU, we showed strong overall play and good coaching down the stretch in a number of games this season and including when we had a full squad. We also had a horrible losing streak, but that also coincided with missing players, etc.

I have my own questions about the offensive side of the ball, but we did not have outside shooting, period, this year. We did have a recruit/player in Hunter, who might've provided some of that. I'm interested to see how CAM continues to recruit, how our offense develops with floor - spacing shooting, and including how CAM utilizes the 3-ball as he has his own recruits in place, and how 'hard nosed' we play, with his own recruits in place. Time will tell. 

I like Archie and backed him from the beginning.  It doesn't mean we cannot analyze what we see.  I was very happy when he was hired because of what he said his program would look like.  Regarding your point about offense, he did mention moving the ball with the pass more than with the dribble.  Personally, I see too much weave at times and also moving too much with the dribble.  I'd really like to see the ball move more with the pass.  That type of offense is more versatile against a variety of defenses.  The dribble can be snuffed out by length and quickness.  Moving the ball with the pass causes the defense to scramble and get on its heels.

There are other things we can discuss, but we can all acknowledge the sample size is small at this point.

 

[BADGERVOL]

CAM was my favorite option IF we weren’t going to land a “big name.” No one (or VERY few) knows if we ever offered a BIG amount to any famous coach whether officially or through back channels. So to simply say “IU isn’t willing to pay big to compete” is not something we can prove. Maybe they tried. Who’s to say they didn’t offer Marshall 5.5-6 million a year and he thought long and hard and said “no thanks.”

i know this, as much as CAM was my favorite of the non big name coaches, he doesn’t DESERVE any more than he’s getting till he earns it.

[BADGERVOL]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

But is IU in a different position right now if Bennett was hired for $7M? Cam's results in his first two years at IU are better than Bennett's first two years at Virginia. They're both coaches that need time to implement a system and recruit their players. We might not even have had Langford if Bennett was hired, outside of Kyle Guy he doesn't exactly swoop in a grab a ton of highly rated recruits. 

There's a chance Archie ends up just as good as Bennett. He's thought of in similar ways, in terms of when Bennett was at Washington State, by the experts. 

Good reminder...