Taking the Long View

[FKIM01]

35 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Haha c’mon man, you’re misrepresenting my argument... I said he’s John Groce IF he can’t manage to get a top 5 seed or make the second weekend of the tourney by the end of his fourth year.  That would be shocking considering the roster he would have at that point.  And I don’t see how expecting those bare minimum results by 2021 is being impatient.

He's not John Groce.

It's probably more the tone of impatience than what you say.  I get it.  It's been too long since IU has been consistently at the top.  I think everyone would agree with that.  In truth, we don't disagree on much.  Barring something beyond the program's control, there's no reason not to expect continued improvement on the road back to playing like a college blue blood is expected to play.  I expect at a minimum, 22-23 wins and a trip to the big boy tournament next season.  I think that's reasonable.  I'll be disappointed if that doesn't happen, but I'll wait to see how the season unfolds before attributing success or failure to anyone.  It just almost seems like you're angry about how long it takes to get a program shifted into high gear.  Maybe I'm misreading, but I sense an angry and demanding tone in your expectation post.  If I'm off, so be it, but it seems like you're almost ready for the torches and pitchforks now.

Regardless of our expectations, I think this program continues to get better and I'm looking forward to that.

[OGIUAndy]

A healthy (and in Devonte's case non suspended) team wins 3-4 more games this year and easily makes the tournament. So I don't think we're that far off. 

[dbmhoosier]

25 minutes ago, Madison22 said:

I agree with your point.

I see why people are impatient, too.  It's not just the previous coach.

Knight alienated Indiana high school coaches (and decided hunting and fishing were more important than recruiting).  FIred.  We were told it will take time.

Mike Davis burned bridges all over the state.  Fired.  It will take time, they said.

Sampson.  Same.  Fired.  It will take time, we were told.

Crean.  Not good with Indiana high school coaches.  Fired.  It will take time, everyone said. 

Here we are 25 years later.  Twenty.  Five.  Years.  At some point, it feels like we keep reaching into the Big Old Bag of Excuses:  injuries, he needs his own players, it's a new system that takes years to learn, whatever. 

I agree Archie needs time.  But jeez, this has gotten old.

 

A lot of the angst in our fan base stems from the administration.  If Surfboard and Shoulders agreed to resign tomorrow I assure you that even most of the guys on the Rivals board would be fine giving Archie a few more seasons no matter what.  But it's gonna be extremely hard for him to succeed while those 2 are around.

[mchenry34]

43 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Patience?  What do you call the last 19+ years?  I would say this fan base has been fairly patient.  The style of play, off the court issues, bonehead coaching moves, arrogant AD, etc have worn that patience really thin the last several years.  I only see that getting worse if things don’t begin to get noticibly better starting next season.

I don't think that I agree about the fanbase being patient. I think that the impatience and toxicity of the fanbase has actually contributed to some of the poor results. I REALLY believe that if Archie is run out of town in a way that could be perceived as unfair and premature or unreasonable we would have a VERY hard time finding a high level coach to replace him. It would at that point be necessary to hire a group of alumni like Fife, Lewis, Cheaney, and Guyton (although I think a group like this could succeed) to take over and hope that they they can restore some positivity and momentum.

[Billingsley99]

59 minutes ago, Madison22 said:

I agree with your point.

I see why people are impatient, too.  It's not just the previous coach.

Knight alienated Indiana high school coaches (and decided hunting and fishing were more important than recruiting).  FIred.  We were told it will take time.

Mike Davis burned bridges all over the state.  Fired.  It will take time, they said.

Sampson.  Same.  Fired.  It will take time, we were told.

Crean.  Not good with Indiana high school coaches.  Fired.  It will take time, everyone said. 

Here we are 25 years later.  Twenty.  Five.  Years.  At some point, it feels like we keep reaching into the Big Old Bag of Excuses:  injuries, he needs his own players, it's a new system that takes years to learn, whatever. 

I agree Archie needs time.  But jeez, this has gotten old.

 

Dont use the word excuse that's a big no no round these parts😀

[Billingsley99]

39 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

A healthy (and in Devonte's case non suspended) team wins 3-4 more games this year and easily makes the tournament. So I don't think we're that far off. 

But we also lost our 2 best players so do we keep moving forward or take a step back

[dbmhoosier]

8 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

But we also lost our 2 best players so do we keep moving forward or take a step back

I think we're better next season.  I don't think losing Morgan is a big deal.  TJD while a freshman is a much better fit for the pack line.  Morgan was an 6'6" PF forced to play center in the B1G.  And we beat MSU on the road without him.  Romeo never lived up to the hype and as good as he was his inability to shoot hurt us IMO.  I also think his presence caused some major jealousy issues among the other guys.  I just feel we'll be a good bit better assuming Jerome can play.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Patience?  What do you call the last 19+ years?  I would say this fan base has been fairly patient.  The style of play, off the court issues, bonehead coaching moves, arrogant AD, etc have worn that patience really thin the last several years.  I only see that getting worse if things don’t begin to get noticibly starting next season.

I have seen little patience by the fan base because I have seen fans give a coach more than 3 years before calling for their heads.

[OGIUAndy]

4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

But we also lost our 2 best players so do we keep moving forward or take a step back

I think next year's team will have less "fitting a round peg into a square pole" type scenarios, so we'll be a better overall team, with better results. That's just my gut. 

[IU Scott]

59 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

Really???? Wasn’t it you, just the other day, that posted ‘It’s Miller Time (to leave)?”  Now you’re preaching patience?  Color me confused....

That was to reference to what we were calling when kids transfer just like Creaning

[Billingsley99]

14 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

I think we're better next season.  I don't think losing Morgan is a big deal.  TJD while a freshman is a much better fit for the pack line.  Morgan was an 6'6" PF forced to play center in the B1G.  And we beat MSU on the road without him.  Romeo never lived up to the hype and as good as he was his inability to shoot hurt us IMO.  I also think his presence caused some major jealousy issues among the other guys.  I just feel we'll be a good bit better assuming Jerome can play.

I am not so much worried about our defense but where does the scoring come from 

[Billingsley99]

13 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

I think next year's team will have less "fitting a round peg into a square pole" type scenarios, so we'll be a better overall team, with better results. That's just my gut. 

I am hoping the same but the past 2 seasons shooting woes I dont see improving

[dbmhoosier]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

I am not so much worried about our defense but where does the scoring come from 

DG and Jerome if healthy for sure.  Archie needs to hit the grad transfer market hard for a shooter.

[Long Duk Dong]

Indiana has high expectations but refuses to do what it takes to get a guy to achieve those expectations. 

Kentucky and Kansas have high expectations and they do what it takes to get the guys to achieve them.

[OGIUAndy]

8 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Indiana has high expectations but refuses to do what it takes to get a guy to achieve those expectations. 

Kentucky and Kansas have high expectations and they do what it takes to get the guys to achieve them.

I'd rather IU do it with a guy like Archie than a guy like Calipari, but that's just me. But I was all for the Donovan rumors and hoping it was true. But for me Archie was #2. Making the tournament should not be that difficult. But for whatever reason, I see the light at the end of the tunnel that I didn't always see with Crean. But Glass is on very thin ice since both big money sports have not lived up to expectations. So I get where the impatience comes from, but my gut says next year we'll see a big difference. 

[rico]

Some of you need to turn in your "IU fandom" cards.

[dbmhoosier]

51 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I have seen little patience by the fan base because I have seen fans give a coach more than 3 years before calling for their heads.

We had plenty of patience with Davis and Crean.

[Feathery]

48 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I am hoping the same but the past 2 seasons shooting woes I dont see improving

I see the shooting woes improving quite a bit actually. We are losing 2 of our worst shooters, 1 had the highest volume and the other was tied for 4th in volume. Both shot in the 20’s%. That’s addition by subtraction. 

[Feathery]

3 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

We had plenty of patience with Davis and Crean.

You and I were both in the Gregg Marshall bandwagon during the coaching search. Are you holding Archie to the same standard you would have for Marshall? Just an honest question. 

Part of the reason I’m still optimistic is I’ve got the same expectations for whoever the coach was. Improvement in wins and make the NCAA’s in year 3. After that continue to make the dance and runs will come, so will big ten titles. 

[Steubenhoosier]

2 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

We had plenty of patience with Davis and Crean.

So, then why shouldn't CAM receive the same?

[BobSaccamanno]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

A lot of the angst in our fan base stems from the administration.  If Surfboard and Shoulders agreed to resign tomorrow I assure you that even most of the guys on the Rivals board would be fine giving Archie a few more seasons no matter what.  But it's gonna be extremely hard for him to succeed while those 2 are around.

Who is surfboard?  What is the gripe with him and Shoulders in terms of sports success?  Honest question, I did not know what this is referring to, if you don't mind.

[IU Scott]

31 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

We had plenty of patience with Davis and Crean.

Never saw it with either one because Davis was getting ripped his first year and Crean during his 3rd year.  Just because they were not fired when you wanted them to doesn't mean you were patient.  It meant the administration did not bow down to pressure from fans because if they did both would have been fired within 3 years.

[IU Scott]

11 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Who is surfboard?  What is the gripe with him and Shoulders in terms of sports success?  Honest question, I did not know what this is referring to, if you don't mind.

I don't understand the surfboard name for Glass because it is about him bringing a surfboard to announce we were going to play in Maui.  the thing s that every team gets a surfboard when they agree to play in Maui.

[dbmhoosier]

13 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Who is surfboard?  What is the gripe with him and Shoulders in terms of sports success?  Honest question, I did not know what this is referring to, if you don't mind.

Fred is incompetent and Pat has made it very clear over the years that he does not want an elite basketball program.  He does not want a coach bigger than the University and has hindered any chance of hiring one before.  

[Long Duk Dong]

53 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

I'd rather IU do it with a guy like Archie than a guy like Calipari, but that's just me. But I was all for the Donovan rumors and hoping it was true. But for me Archie was #2. Making the tournament should not be that difficult. But for whatever reason, I see the light at the end of the tunnel that I didn't always see with Crean. But Glass is on very thin ice since both big money sports have not lived up to expectations. So I get where the impatience comes from, but my gut says next year we'll see a big difference. 

Indiana needed to pursue Donovan the way Alabama pursued Saban. They finally stopped messing around and did whatever it took to get the guy to get them back on top.