Taking the Long View

[IU878176]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Chris Beard is going to the Championship game in year 3.  Can we stop with all of this 4 to 5 years to be a tournament team nonsense please?

And he went to the Elite 8 in his second year......At Texas Tech. Very impressive.

[IUCrazy2]

7 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Can we stop using a single outlier and pretending it represents rational expectations?

Absolutely, so we can stop talking about Coach K's record his first 3 years too then?

I am not saying to get rid of Archie but saying we need to wait until 2022 to start expecting "deep" (read as past first weekend) runs from Archie is just a crock.  And FWIW, I am not necessarily even looking for a deep tournament run, I am looking for a team with a regular season record that looks like it is capable of a Sweet 16 appearance.  Next year I just want to make the tournament.  At the beginning of the year the consensus was that this team had the talent to be a tournament team.  I believe it was mismanaged and we fell short.

I expect more next year, period.  And if we end up the same, I am not going to be in the "I am currently patient" crowd, I am going to be in the "this guy is underperforming his predecessor whom we fired" crowd.

No, this is not the IU of 1993, but my God we have more going for us than Texas Tech did.  I am not saying to fire Archie but stop moving the goal posts on what constitutes an acceptable record.  If it is going to take until 2022 to see good basketball, we should have just kept Crean.

[FKIM01]

The simple answer is no, we don't stop talking about coach K's record because for every Chris Beard, there are multiple coach K examples. That's why coach K is considered closer to the norm and Chris Beard is an outlier.  Whether or not Beard is able to maintain his run of magic, there will always be many more examples like coach K ( and Jay Wright and John Beilien and Tony Bennett) who took longer to successfully install their system.

You can expect whatever you want but despite your disappointment,  IU's coach overcame injuries, a tough schedule and considerable youth to post a 3-win improvement over his first year. I expect he'll make progress again next season.  Holding up Chris Beard as a comparative example is just silly. There's nothing comparable about the programs this year, especially experience.

[BoomBaby]

9 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Chris Beard is going to the Championship game in year 3.  Can we stop with all of this 4 to 5 years to be a tournament team nonsense please?

It is possible for one to imagine that there is some relevance to IU's situation, I suppose.  I myself prefer to ponder the advantages of having four seniors playing major minutes.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

The simple answer is no, we don't stop talking about coach K's record because for every Chris Beard, there are multiple coach K examples. That's why coach K is considered closer to the norm and Chris Beard is an outlier.  Whether or not Beard is able to maintain his run of magic, there will always be many more examples like coach K ( and Jay Wright and John Beilien and Tony Bennett) who took longer to successfully install their system.

You can expect whatever you want but despite your disappointment,  IU's coach overcame injuries, a tough schedule and considerable youth to post a 3-win improvement over his first year. I expect he'll make progress again next season.  Holding up Chris Beard as a comparative example is just silly. There's nothing comparable about the programs this year, especially experience.

Now how many times do I have to tell people that K's situation was way different?  People act like he took over a meddling power conference team when in fact he took over a team that was a national power.  K fits more into that Steve Fischer category.

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

The simple answer is no, we don't stop talking about coach K's record because for every Chris Beard, there are multiple coach K examples. That's why coach K is considered closer to the norm and Chris Beard is an outlier.  Whether or not Beard is able to maintain his run of magic, there will always be many more examples like coach K ( and Jay Wright and John Beilien and Tony Bennett) who took longer to successfully install their system.

You can expect whatever you want but despite your disappointment,  IU's coach overcame injuries, a tough schedule and considerable youth to post a 3-win improvement over his first year. I expect he'll make progress again next season.  Holding up Chris Beard as a comparative example is just silly. There's nothing comparable about the programs this year, especially experience.

For Pete's sake, I am not saying we should expect Chris Beard for the second flipping time.  I am saying that we should have to wait 5 years (2022) before expecting anything is total crock of manure.

And to the person who said that having a bunch of seniors helped, well those were Tubby's guys so no idea how Beard could have been judged on what he did with them given he did not have "his guys" to run "his system"...or so I have been told.

I am not saying to fire Miller, I am saying to stop moving the goal posts whenever results do not match expectations.  FKIM01, given you expect improvement every year, the improvement we should see next year is making the tournament correct?  That is what I am saying.  And the year after that we should move from a middle pack Big Ten team to a contender (top 4) correct?  And that would make us a second weekend contender in 2020-2021.  That is what I expect.  And if those expectations are not met, we got a problem IMO.  That is what I am saying.  Maybe I am saying it in too "mean" of a tone or whatever but another year like this one next year is a failure.  It will have 50% of the fanbase screaming and then Miller is really in trouble.  He must perform next year, period.  He may get another year if he does not but he will be in big trouble.  Big.

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

For Pete's sake, I am not saying we should expect Chris Beard for the second flipping time.  I am saying that we should have to wait 5 years (2022) before expecting anything is total crock of manure.

And to the person who said that having a bunch of seniors helped, well those were Tubby's guys so no idea how Beard could have been judged on what he did with them given he did not have "his guys" to run "his system"...or so I have been told.

I am not saying to fire Miller, I am saying to stop moving the goal posts whenever results do not match expectations.  FKIM01, given you expect improvement every year, the improvement we should see next year is making the tournament correct?  That is what I am saying.  And the year after that we should move from a middle pack Big Ten team to a contender (top 4) correct?  And that would make us a second weekend contender in 2020-2021.  That is what I expect.  And if those expectations are not met, we got a problem IMO.  That is what I am saying.  Maybe I am saying it in too "mean" of a tone or whatever but another year like this one next year is a failure.  It will have 50% of the fanbase screaming and then Miller is really in trouble.  He must perform next year, period.  He may get another year if he does not but he will be in big trouble.  Big.

I’m not going to act like I know Tech’s roster up and down, but I do know that their top 4 scorers are all Beard recruits (Mooney and Owens are grad transfers). Seems like Beard was afforded the ability to remake his roster. If reports are true, it stinks that Archie was left in a situation where he couldn’t make some of the moves he may have wanted too. 

With that said, I agree that waiting until 2022 for an impact team is ridiculous, and I’m one of the bigger proponents on patience on the board. With that said, I don’t think we’re going to have to wait. 

[IUCrazy2]

Just now, BGleas said:

I’m not going to act like I know Tech’s roster up and down, but I do know that their top 4 scorers are all Beard recruits (Mooney and Owens are grad transfers). Seems like Beard was afforded the ability to remake his roster. If reports are true, it stinks that Archie was left in a situation where he couldn’t make some of the moves he may have wanted too. 

With that said, I agree that waiting until 2022 for an impact team is ridiculous, and I’m one of the bigger proponents on patience on the board. With that said, I don’t think we’re going to have to wait. 

Your first paragraph goes back to an administration problem.  I think Glass needs to be moved over into a glad hand role if he is going to stay on at IU where he can glad hand for donations, he is pretty good at that.  But we absolutely need an A.D. who knows what they are doing w.r.t. actually administering the athletic department.  I think he sucks at that.  We also need to send some of the old guard trustees packing.  Some absolutely need cold Shoulders from alumni.  That said, I think Miller shot himself in the foot by how he rewarded hard work or punished poor work this year.  I think he totally flubbed how he handled having Romeo in the program.  He did not build the culture he said he wanted and that is 100% on him.

Your second paragraph is where I am at.  

[13th&Jackson]

10 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Chris Beard is going to the Championship game in year 3.  Can we stop with all of this 4 to 5 years to be a tournament team nonsense please?

What Chris Beard has accomplished is very impressive. One of the best coached teams I've seen in awhile. He did take over a significantly better situation from Tubby than CAM did from CTC. TT was a NCAAT team Tubby's last year. They even said last night how much Tubby helped with the transition. It was a break for TT. Beard had accepted the UNLV job before Tubby announced he was leaving for Memphis.

It's quite a path that Beard has taken to get to where he is. He's a 25-year "overnight" success story

1991–1995	Texas (assistant)
1995–1996	Incarnate Word (assistant)
1996–1997	Abilene Christian (assistant)
1997–1999	North Texas (assistant)
1999–2000	Fort Scott CC
2000–2001	Seminole State JC
2001–2011	Texas Tech (assoc. HC)
2011–2012	South Carolina Warriors
2012–2013	McMurry
2013–2015	Angelo State
2015–2016	Little Rock
2016–present	Texas Tech

 

[IUCrazy2]

5 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

What Chris Beard has accomplished is very impressive. One of the best coached teams I've seen in awhile. He did take over a significantly better situation from Tubby than CAM did from CTC. TT was a NCAAT team Tubby's last year. They even said last night how much Tubby helped with the transition. It was a break for TT. Beard had accepted the UNLV job before Tubby announced he was leaving for Memphis.

It's quite a path that Beard has taken to get to where he is. He's a 25-year "overnight" success story

1991–1995	Texas (assistant)
1995–1996	Incarnate Word (assistant)
1996–1997	Abilene Christian (assistant)
1997–1999	North Texas (assistant)
1999–2000	Fort Scott CC
2000–2001	Seminole State JC
2001–2011	Texas Tech (assoc. HC)
2011–2012	South Carolina Warriors
2012–2013	McMurry
2013–2015	Angelo State
2015–2016	Little Rock
2016–present	Texas Tech

 

Yeah, as ridiculous as it is to wait 5 years before any expectations, I think it is equally tough to expect a coach to do what he did.

Some people act like those who were expecting a little more this year or who are going to be mad if we miss the tournament next year are crazy because it takes time...I was pointing out that is not necessarily the case with a really recent example.  Expecting to just make the tournament next year should not be a bridge too far for freaking IU even if we are not 1993 IU.  And if anyone is standing in the way of that being a reality, they need tossed out on their ear.  That goes from the ball boy all the way up to the BOT.  Just making the tournament is like getting C's for a program like IU.  Archie may not have had a better situation than Beard but he sure as heck took over a better one than Crean.  Crean had us in the Sweet 16 in year 4.  He proved to be a mediocre, inconsistent coach but even he managed a complete rebuild in year 4 and now we got people arguing that Miller needs 5.  GIve me a break.

[rico]

The "Honeymoon" is over.  I am done with excuses and I am done with comparisons.  Time to put up wins.

[StLHoosier]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Now how many times do I have to tell people that K's situation was way different?  People act like he took over a meddling power conference team when in fact he took over a team that was a national power.  K fits more into that Steve Fischer category.

Where the respective programs were in terms of recent success may have been vastly different, but K struggled mightly his first 3-4 years, to the tune of Duke considering firing him.  People are comparing the first few years, not where the programs were in terms of recent success.  How difficult is that to understand?

[IUCrazy2]

10 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Where the respective programs were in terms of recent success may have been vastly different, but K struggled mightly his first 3-4 years, to the tune of Duke considering firing him.  People are comparing the first few years, not where the programs were in terms of recent success.  How difficult is that to understand?

I think what people take issue with is that on one hand we are told not to cherry pick when a Coach like Beard is able to get results right away but that one of the rebuttals to some displeasure in how things have gone is to cherry pick a guy like Coach K.

There are extreme instances for both points of view, but the reality is that for the most part, if you are failing in year 3, your ceiling is more likely Tom Crean than it is Coach K.  I know I get sick of him being trotted out as an example because he sits in the same extreme of the bell curve for late bloomers as Knight and Beard do for early bloomers.  You cannot dismiss Beard in your first sentence as being an outlier and then bring up K in my opinion.  In that instance you are saying the one outlier does not matter but mine does.

[rico]

21 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Where the respective programs were in terms of recent success may have been vastly different, but K struggled mightly his first 3-4 years, to the tune of Duke considering firing him.  People are comparing the first few years, not where the programs were in terms of recent success.  How difficult is that to understand?

BS......K took over a team that made the EE.  Promptly in year 1 made the NIT.  2 down years and then to the NCAAT.  You grasp that?

[IUfaninIllinois]

In my opinion here is the big difference recruit 1 aka Romeo Langford tears a ligament in his thumb that he is having surgery on in November so Archie has to change the gameplan because clearly Romeo was affected. Recruit 2 Jerome Hunter practices the whole offseason the rotation is getting more comfortable and ready for the season to start and a week before the season starts the unexpected happens and he is now out for the season so now your 2 top 50 recruits are affecting the games in a huge way. If Romeo doesn’t have that thumb injury he shoots a ton better I guarantee it. And last but not least Senior 1 Juwan Morgan was in foul trouble I’m the first half in way more games than he wasn’t because he was undersized playing a position he shouldn’t have played and committed a lot of silly fouls and because he was in foul trouble that forced Fitzner into way more minutes than we expected and he lost confidence and was probably a lot more tired because the competition and position he plays in the big ten took a lot out of him.

[StLHoosier]

58 minutes ago, rico said:

BS......K took over a team that made the EE.  Promptly in year 1 made the NIT.  2 down years and then to the NCAAT.  You grasp that?

Yeah I do, and you just made my point.  It took four years before he made the NCAA tournament, even after taking over a program that was having great success.  Am I missing something?

[rico]

21 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Yeah I do, and you just made my point.  It took four years before he made the NCAA tournament, even after taking over a program that was having great success.  Am I missing something?

You are missing a helluva lot.

[jblaz13]

1 hour ago, IUfaninIllinois said:

In my opinion here is the big difference recruit 1 aka Romeo Langford tears a ligament in his thumb that he is having surgery on in November so Archie has to change the gameplan because clearly Romeo was affected. Recruit 2 Jerome Hunter practices the whole offseason the rotation is getting more comfortable and ready for the season to start and a week before the season starts the unexpected happens and he is now out for the season so now your 2 top 50 recruits are affecting the games in a huge way. If Romeo doesn’t have that thumb injury he shoots a ton better I guarantee it. And last but not least Senior 1 Juwan Morgan was in foul trouble I’m the first half in way more games than he wasn’t because he was undersized playing a position he shouldn’t have played and committed a lot of silly fouls and because he was in foul trouble that forced Fitzner into way more minutes than we expected and he lost confidence and was probably a lot more tired because the competition and position he plays in the big ten took a lot out of him.

I think your comment and where you are coming from are spot on and only the tip of the iceberg. 

IU had multiple injuries to CORE ROTATION PLAYERS. The brunt of the injuries , as I and others have mentioned , were not the end of the bench mob players. These were the cogs, the motor, the wheels, the intangibles that needed to be fully or near fully together in the same complete sense they were in the offseason . 

Morgan had also been injured in the late season.

One apparently painful and persistent back injury to McRoberts. He was not himself .Period . It killed the team on nights when teams need IQ, experience and a motor to get through rough patches. The D would have been even more lock down with ZM playing at full strength. It just didn't happen. 

Then two major concussions. Rob and Race.

Davis had his injuries, and Green had been both injured and suspended.- were instrumental for this team in the late run of mostly wins. 

Durham had an injury. Kids coming and going to and from a rotation and kids being too unavailable for a team to practice normally kills continuity . Issues, fouls, thigns of the likes are problematic alone. Perfect storm of adversity is literally what it took to knock IU out by one win with an ailing roster barely returning to something near form.

They get hit with the flu late season. Romeo has a back problem. This stuff you cannot make up to be crazier. 

One has to be able to comprehend the full scope of the situation from the eyes of a coach or player. How does this affect the rhythm and confidence when these factors that diminish cohesiveness - they were physically unable to conduct FULL PRACTICES> For any logical basketball mind that should have been end of the discussion on why it isn't fair to write Archie off. 

The time for winning will be when the program has enough factors fall into place to develop on a normal time curve. Archie is clearly working to establish the right culture from where I'm sitting. He is also having to grow into the job . I have faith his ego being in proper perspective is alot of what got him to NC State and a lot of what got him into position at Dayton to earn an opportunity at IU to begin with . 

Some take their expectations from the outside too seriously.  Before this year it was a lot of " Oh Indiana needs to have more brutal schedules."  "Oh I won't believe anything is changing until they can compete with Izzo and beat him more  often."  "IU gets owned by Wisconsin . Maybe one of these days they will beat them. "

They beat them depleted. End of story . And I will add this in support of your thoughts as well: 6 quad 1 wins.

Silver lining is where a good coach begins to start building from when they go back to the drawing board.  

In a weaker B1G this very limited team places much higher and makes the Dance easily on that imperfect defense we saw on a reasonably frequent basis. They actually started taking care of the ball more consistently than in years. How many times have we saw multiple games under 10 TO's late season, or of recent. Yes they could not shoot well this time around, but the foundations of making less mistakes and playing better defense will eventually overlap with solid shooting. Takes time for that if there is not consistent shooting already on the team and the guys who could and likely would have battle injuries. It was a revolving door for a time, of injuries and overlapping recovery and readjustment periods. ,

The only difference I saw was the lack of headlines for IU;s injury situation .That really hurt perception of what I always felt was a better team than we ever had a chance to see unfortunately .It was not all in Miller's control. To say it is or suggest he is a bad hire with those present symptoms out of his hands - would be sheer foolishness. A relatively, new inexperienced backcourt and so much instability are a recipe for disaster.

The old culture did not insist on fundamentals to a high enough degree. This team could halfway attack zones, traps, etc in hostile environments. It took career nights to put these kids away in some pretty impressive games and displays of toughness .

It depends on one's lens , personal experiences with the game, other things,  but I notice  the recipe for success and getting a bad batch of fortune and timing affecting the final outcome this year. Can;t control those things, but if Archie adapts and changes what they,  they will be much better with marginally more breaks going their way to allow them to practice normally.

Practice normally ......priceless. .  

 

 

[IUCrazy2]

Just now, jblaz13 said:

I think your comment and where you are coming from are spot on and only the tip of the iceberg. 

IU had multiple injuries to CORE ROTATION PLAYERS. The brunt of the injuries , as I and others have mentioned , were not the end of the bench mob players. These were the cogs, the motor, the wheels, the intangibles that needed to be fully or near fully together in the same complete sense they were in the offseason . 

Morgan had also been injured in the late season.

One apparently painful and persistent back injury to McRoberts. He was not himself .Period . It killed the team on nights when teams need IQ, experience and a motor to get through rough patches. The D would have been even more lock down with ZM playing at full strength. It just didn't happen. 

Then two major concussions. Rob and Race.

Davis had his injuries, and Green had been both injured and suspended.- were instrumental for this team in the late run of mostly wins. 

Durham had an injury. Kids coming and going to and from a rotation and kids being too unavailable for a team to practice normally kills continuity . Issues, fouls, thigns of the likes are problematic alone. Perfect storm of adversity is literally what it took to knock IU out by one win with an ailing roster barely returning to something near form.

They get hit with the flu late season. Romeo has a back problem. This stuff you cannot make up to be crazier. 

One has to be able to comprehend the full scope of the situation from the eyes of a coach or player. How does this affect the rhythm and confidence when these factors that diminish cohesiveness - they were physically unable to conduct FULL PRACTICES> For any logical basketball mind that should have been end of the discussion on why it isn't fair to write Archie off. 

The time for winning will be when the program has enough factors fall into place to develop on a normal time curve. Archie is clearly working to establish the right culture from where I'm sitting. He is also having to grow into the job . I have faith his ego being in proper perspective is alot of what got him to NC State and a lot of what got him into position at Dayton to earn an opportunity at IU to begin with . 

Some take their expectations from the outside too seriously.  Before this year it was a lot of " Oh Indiana needs to have more brutal schedules."  "Oh I won't believe anything is changing until they can compete with Izzo and beat him more  often."  "IU gets owned by Wisconsin . Maybe one of these days they will beat them. "

They beat them depleted. End of story . And I will add this in support of your thoughts as well: 6 quad 1 wins.

Silver lining is where a good coach begins to start building from when they go back to the drawing board.  

In a weaker B1G this very limited team places much higher and makes the Dance easily on that imperfect defense we saw on a reasonably frequent basis. They actually started taking care of the ball more consistently than in years. How many times have we saw multiple games under 10 TO's late season, or of recent. Yes they could not shoot well this time around, but the foundations of making less mistakes and playing better defense will eventually overlap with solid shooting. Takes time for that if there is not consistent shooting already on the team and the guys who could and likely would have battle injuries. It was a revolving door for a time, of injuries and overlapping recovery and readjustment periods. ,

The only difference I saw was the lack of headlines for IU;s injury situation .That really hurt perception of what I always felt was a better team than we ever had a chance to see unfortunately .It was not all in Miller's control. To say it is or suggest he is a bad hire with those present symptoms out of his hands - would be sheer foolishness. A relatively, new inexperienced backcourt and so much instability are a recipe for disaster.

The old culture did not insist on fundamentals to a high enough degree. This team could halfway attack zones, traps, etc in hostile environments. It took career nights to put these kids away in some pretty impressive games and displays of toughness .

It depends on one's lens , personal experiences with the game, other things,  but I notice  the recipe for success and getting a bad bitch of fortune and timing affecting the final outcome this year. Can;t control those things, but if Archie adapts and changes what they,  they will be much better with marginally more breaks going their way to allow them to practice normally.

Practice normally ......priceless. .  

 

 

Great.  He is getting a "pass" this year.  Frankly this year is done, I do not care about excuses for this year anymore.  I think he mishandled the roster this year too and that had every bit as mu h to do with the losing 12 out of 13 as the injuries did. 

I expect tournament next year, period.

[IUfaninIllinois]

12 minutes ago, jblaz13 said:

I think your comment and where you are coming from are spot on and only the tip of the iceberg. 

IU had multiple injuries to CORE ROTATION PLAYERS. The brunt of the injuries , as I and others have mentioned , were not the end of the bench mob players. These were the cogs, the motor, the wheels, the intangibles that needed to be fully or near fully together in the same complete sense they were in the offseason . 

Morgan had also been injured in the late season.

One apparently painful and persistent back injury to McRoberts. He was not himself .Period . It killed the team on nights when teams need IQ, experience and a motor to get through rough patches. The D would have been even more lock down with ZM playing at full strength. It just didn't happen. 

Then two major concussions. Rob and Race.

Davis had his injuries, and Green had been both injured and suspended.- were instrumental for this team in the late run of mostly wins. 

Durham had an injury. Kids coming and going to and from a rotation and kids being too unavailable for a team to practice normally kills continuity . Issues, fouls, thigns of the likes are problematic alone. Perfect storm of adversity is literally what it took to knock IU out by one win with an ailing roster barely returning to something near form.

They get hit with the flu late season. Romeo has a back problem. This stuff you cannot make up to be crazier. 

One has to be able to comprehend the full scope of the situation from the eyes of a coach or player. How does this affect the rhythm and confidence when these factors that diminish cohesiveness - they were physically unable to conduct FULL PRACTICES> For any logical basketball mind that should have been end of the discussion on why it isn't fair to write Archie off. 

The time for winning will be when the program has enough factors fall into place to develop on a normal time curve. Archie is clearly working to establish the right culture from where I'm sitting. He is also having to grow into the job . I have faith his ego being in proper perspective is alot of what got him to NC State and a lot of what got him into position at Dayton to earn an opportunity at IU to begin with . 

Some take their expectations from the outside too seriously.  Before this year it was a lot of " Oh Indiana needs to have more brutal schedules."  "Oh I won't believe anything is changing until they can compete with Izzo and beat him more  often."  "IU gets owned by Wisconsin . Maybe one of these days they will beat them. "

They beat them depleted. End of story . And I will add this in support of your thoughts as well: 6 quad 1 wins.

Silver lining is where a good coach begins to start building from when they go back to the drawing board.  

In a weaker B1G this very limited team places much higher and makes the Dance easily on that imperfect defense we saw on a reasonably frequent basis. They actually started taking care of the ball more consistently than in years. How many times have we saw multiple games under 10 TO's late season, or of recent. Yes they could not shoot well this time around, but the foundations of making less mistakes and playing better defense will eventually overlap with solid shooting. Takes time for that if there is not consistent shooting already on the team and the guys who could and likely would have battle injuries. It was a revolving door for a time, of injuries and overlapping recovery and readjustment periods. ,

The only difference I saw was the lack of headlines for IU;s injury situation .That really hurt perception of what I always felt was a better team than we ever had a chance to see unfortunately .It was not all in Miller's control. To say it is or suggest he is a bad hire with those present symptoms out of his hands - would be sheer foolishness. A relatively, new inexperienced backcourt and so much instability are a recipe for disaster.

The old culture did not insist on fundamentals to a high enough degree. This team could halfway attack zones, traps, etc in hostile environments. It took career nights to put these kids away in some pretty impressive games and displays of toughness .

It depends on one's lens , personal experiences with the game, other things,  but I notice  the recipe for success and getting a bad batch of fortune and timing affecting the final outcome this year. Can;t control those things, but if Archie adapts and changes what they,  they will be much better with marginally more breaks going their way to allow them to practice normally.

Practice normally ......priceless. .  

 

 

Amen... preach... after what you just said it also made me think of this.... Duke has 2-3 players that are guarantee top 5 and when Zion went out with his injury North Carolina made them look SILLY and then they looked terrible still after that until he came back. Indiana has 1 player who will get drafted period and he was the one that had an injury to the most important body part in basketball.

[StLHoosier]

52 minutes ago, rico said:

You are missing a helluva lot.

Please explain, because here’s where we are at:

People state that many coaches have taken 3+ years to get their programs running/making runs in the NCAA tourney, and they use K as an example.  

K is someone that fits this description, and you even said he made the NIT in his first year, had two down years (missing the tournament entirely), and then made the tourney in his fourth year.  It took him four years to make the tourney.  

Somehow, according to you, just because he takes over a program that made an elite 8 the year before, exempts him from the comparison.  I’m genuinely curious, as I’ve yet to see you give a good explanation on your stance every time this comes up.

[FKIM01]

3 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think what people take issue with is that on one hand we are told not to cherry pick when a Coach like Beard is able to get results right away but that one of the rebuttals to some displeasure in how things have gone is to cherry pick a guy like Coach K.

There are extreme instances for both points of view, but the reality is that for the most part, if you are failing in year 3, your ceiling is more likely Tom Crean than it is Coach K.  I know I get sick of him being trotted out as an example because he sits in the same extreme of the bell curve for late bloomers as Knight and Beard do for early bloomers.  You cannot dismiss Beard in your first sentence as being an outlier and then bring up K in my opinion.  In that instance you are saying the one outlier does not matter but mine does.

Who's cherry-picking?  I listed four respected coaches right off the top of my head.  It's a lot more common to start slow like Coach K than it is to start fast like Beard.  No cherry-picking necessary to illustrate that trend.

[FKIM01]

29 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Please explain, because here’s where we are at:

People state that many coaches have taken 3+ years to get their programs running/making runs in the NCAA tourney, and they use K as an example.  

K is someone that fits this description, and you even said he made the NIT in his first year, had two down years (missing the tournament entirely), and then made the tourney in his fourth year.  It took him four years to make the tourney.  

Somehow, according to you, just because he takes over a program that made an elite 8 the year before, exempts him from the comparison.  I’m genuinely curious, as I’ve yet to see you give a good explanation on your stance every time this comes up.

If anything, that illustrates that K's record would have been even more dismal if he's started with a typical rebuild.  I'm not sure I get this point either.

[Leathernecks]

I am so tired of coaching comparisons.  Every situation is apples to oranges.  Without looking these up, somebody tell me everybody who was on Duke's roster Coach K's first few years.  How many injuries did they have?  How were his sub patterns?  Did they play hard every game?  What was their competition?  Who were his assistants?  

There are a lot of examples of coaches who had a disappointing first few years, but they don't get remembered because they got fired and are at crappy schools.  What other coaches did at other schools during other decades couldn't mean less.  And I don't really care what Beard is doing at Texas Tech either, but I'd much rather have a coach overachieve early on than underachieve.

I only care about the product that IU puts on the court.  This year's product was disappointing.  Apparently so was Coach K's 2nd year.  So was John Groce's.  Mike Davis's 2nd year was an overachievement.  Billie Gillispie overachieved when he took Texas A&M from 0 conference wins the year before he got there to an 8-8 conference record in year one, 10-6 in year two, and 13-3 in year three with a Sweet 16 appearance.  Then he underachieved when he got fired after 2 years at Kentucky (probably because of off the court incidents, but nobody was sad to see his coaching leave).  Sucked in his one year at Texas Tech.

I hope coaching comparisons die off.  Archie won't be good because Coach K struggled at first, and he won't be bad because John Groce struggled in year 2.  He'll be good or bad because of his ability to instill his culture on this team.

[BADGERVOL]

Here’s my fear...anyone who’s played team sports knows that GREAT chemistry is needed to overachieve usually, and average chemistry is needed to meet expectations based on talent and coaching and HORRID chemistry and wreck anything for any coach at any time. My fear is that dismissing the impact an self-imploding team could have on success is pretty harsh and unfair.

Now, I am still confused/frustrated by how it appeared CAM handled the chemistry issues on this team, but I’ve read and heard enough about this team behind the scenes to know that if even HALF of what’s been shared is true this team imploded on themselves and sometimes you’re limited as to all you can do to fix it as a coach. AND THATS ASSUMING he had complete power to do anything he wanted to with any players and wasn’t limited by APR or the AD in anyway. Idk.

im not saying that gives him a complete pass on the season at all, and I still feel he has to step up BIG this next season, but I don’t see the variables of team cancers and implosion being discussed here. Maybe it was earlier in the thread.