"Tough Love" Stories

[IUFLA]

The Pat Chambers firing thread got me thinking about how different it was 30-40 years ago as opposed to today. I'd imagine most of us have experienced a "tough love" story, so here's mine...

My very first shift as an apprentice air traffic controller was on a swing shift (3 pm to 11 pm) at Scott AFB RAPCON (Radar Approach Control). At our briefing, the crew chief says, "Well, we have somebody training in clearance delivery and assist. Let's throw him into the pool. Take approach (the position that actually talks to the airplanes in flight) with Sgt Head (the guys name was John Head...after I got to know him and became friends, I always told him his Native American name would be "Two Toilets"}

So we get in there...First aircraft I get is an F-4. Sgt Head tells me, "He's just down here from Springfield ANG to shoot some practice approaches, so give him and ILS to runway 31, the wind and altimeter." I did that, then Sgt Head says, "Ask him say type landing and intentions to follow." I did and the pilot says, "Low approach back to radar for another one." He did 2 or 3 ILS appproaches, then got a clearance back to Springfield. All was well.

Right after he departed the area, I got a handoff on an Air Evac flight coming into Scott. Sgt Head asked me, "Do you know what to do?" I said "Sure." Gave him the ILS runway 31, wind and altimeter. Sgt Head said, "Good!" Now, I had no idea what an AirEvac was, but it basically ferries hospital patients around to different places. After the pilot acknowledged my initial transmission, I say "Say type landing and intentions to follow." 

Sgt Head exploded..."YOU THINK THE F^%%%$ BURN PATIENTS WANT TO TAKE A GOD D&*^% LAP AROUND THE F$%#$@! AIRFIELD?!?!"

The pilot, laughing says, "Oh, full stop will do."

But I learned that lesson...

 

[rico]

My old ball coach used to say..."When I stop f@*king yelling at you is when you need to get worried."

[Seeking6]

Have had a few in my life with tough love situations. Mostly with some family situations....but I'll echo Rico's post. When I first started working after IU my boss used to ride me hard on calls, volume of appointments, opens/closes,etc....and he basically said I'm only on you because I believe in you. When I don't talk to you that's when you should worry. Always carried that one around.

[DWB]

Before I retired 5 years ago, I had a number of clients that coddled their adult (not teenagers, 30-40 yr old) children...financially. Many of them felt "obligated" to help the lazy children, who wouldn't get jobs, got too far in debt, had to have everything now, blah, blah, blah. 

Many a time I told my clients it's time for some tough love with the kids. Show them how to dig themselves out of the hole instead of you pulling them out at your expense. Surprisingly, I never caught any flack from any of them. And some, not all, took my advice..begrudgingly.

On another note, my Dad told me the day I got my drivers license, "if you ever get thrown in jail, don't waste your one phone call, calling me, cause I ain't coming to get you". Still remember it like it was yesterday...

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, DWB said:

On another note, my Dad told me the day I got my drivers license, "if you ever get thrown in jail, don't waste your one phone call, calling me, cause I ain't coming to get you". Still remember it like it was yesterday...

I think all dads back in the day gave that same speech...I got it too...

[rico]

14 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I think all dads back in the day gave that same speech...I got it too...

Ever since I saw this post FLA I have been struggling with a way to convey my thoughts concerning it...so here it goes.

I am of the firm belief that a great deal of problems in today's society that a lot of kids don't have "Dads."  Further more, a lot of kids are brought up in "broken" homes where they are a "pawn" in their parents' lives.  Sad but true.  I don't pretend to know how to remedy the situation.  I could add more, but I will stop right there, for now.

[Parakeet Jones]

36 minutes ago, rico said:

Ever since I saw this post FLA I have been struggling with a way to convey my thoughts concerning it...so here it goes.

I am of the firm belief that a great deal of problems in today's society that a lot of kids don't have "Dads."  Further more, a lot of kids are brought up in "broken" homes where they are a "pawn" in their parents' lives.  Sad but true.  I don't pretend to know how to remedy the situation.  I could add more, but I will stop right there, for now.

As a teacher, I agree with this 100%.  

[IUFLA]

2 hours ago, rico said:

Ever since I saw this post FLA I have been struggling with a way to convey my thoughts concerning it...so here it goes.

I am of the firm belief that a great deal of problems in today's society that a lot of kids don't have "Dads."  Further more, a lot of kids are brought up in "broken" homes where they are a "pawn" in their parents' lives.  Sad but true.  I don't pretend to know how to remedy the situation.  I could add more, but I will stop right there, for now.

I don't know if there is a remedy, rico...You can't teach responsibility to some people...

I was going to say this over in the Family thread to all of the guys who have younger kids, but I'll say it here...

Parenting is by far the toughest job you'll ever have. There'll be times you have to do things in your kids' best interest that they don't like, but you do it because YOU know it's best for THEM. It breaks your heart sometimes when it comes down to that test of wills, but the earlier you let them know you're one of the only people on this earth that don't have any agenda besides their well being, the easier it is...

I see too many people who simply throw in the towel when the sledding gets tough with kids...And that's never good...

 

[rico]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I don't know if there is a remedy, rico...You can't teach responsibility to some people...

I was going to say this over in the Family thread to all of the guys who have younger kids, but I'll say it here...

Parenting is by far the toughest job you'll ever have. There'll be times you have to do things in your kids' best interest that they don't like, but you do it because YOU know it's best for THEM. It breaks your heart sometimes when it comes down to that test of wills, but the earlier you let them know you're one of the only people on this earth that don't have any agenda besides their well being, the easier it is...

I see too many people who simply throw in the towel when the sledding gets tough with kids...And that's never good...

 

Well said my friend, well said.

[Hoosierhoopster]

I have a different take on “tough love.” 
 

That would include, in my book, corporal punishment (belt whipping etc), or letting your kid sit in jail (as referenced), or being what is basically an abusive coach - of kids or college players.

i couldn’t disagree more that any of the above are good for any kid. Time’s change, for a reason. Instilling discipline, accountability, responsibility and values in your kids, any kids, and people generally doesn’t take violence or abandonment. Kids make mistakes, everyone does, and guess what, that remains true no matter what you teach and do.
 

Personally I am and always have been there for my kids no matter what, but that’s with doing everything in my power and understanding to instill good values and understanding. 

In sports, physically hurting or pushing a player by a coach is just pathetic, and frankly lazy. Tell you what, I had an abusive hockey coach when I was a kid. Do I remember that fondly? Hell no. If I ran into that coach on the street when I was older I would’ve beaten the living s— out of him. Tough? It’s cowardly — your players can’t hit back. I’ve probably been in at least 30-40 hockey fights, and a good number of school yard fights as a kid, and a couple as an adult. Toughness doesn’t come from some douchebag coach bring physically aggressive with a kid. Responsibly and accountability doesn’t come from some dad beating his kid. And btw I grew up with one parent, a responsible loving parent. That’s what kids need.

[Seeking6]

7 hours ago, rico said:

Ever since I saw this post FLA I have been struggling with a way to convey my thoughts concerning it...so here it goes.

I am of the firm belief that a great deal of problems in today's society that a lot of kids don't have "Dads."  Further more, a lot of kids are brought up in "broken" homes where they are a "pawn" in their parents' lives.  Sad but true.  I don't pretend to know how to remedy the situation.  I could add more, but I will stop right there, for now.

Tough one for sure. I don't go into the personal stuff much on message boards because I tend to think most come here for a diversion. I'll flip it on other side though. My Dad gave myself and sister everything we needed growing up. Home, clothes, tuition,etc...but when our Mom died very early in life and he remarried he married a twerp. He was a Fortune 500 VP and he married a grocer clerk.

Our relationship with him has never been the same since we were 12 and 16. He's a Dad that provided but could care less about being active in our families lives....and trust me that's a constant pain. 

I agree with  your premise though...when Dad's aren't around it causes problems but there is always another side. Just wanted to point out. 

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I have a different take on “tough love.” 
 

That would include, in my book, corporal punishment (belt whipping etc), or letting your kid sit in jail (as referenced), or being what is basically an abusive coach - of kids or college players.

i couldn’t disagree more that any of the above are good for any kid. Time’s change, for a reason. Instilling discipline, accountability, responsibility and values in your kids, any kids, and people generally doesn’t take violence or abandonment. Kids make mistakes, everyone does, and guess what, that remains true no matter what you teach and do.
 

Personally I am and always have been there for my kids no matter what, but that’s with doing everything in my power and understanding to instill good values and understanding. 

In sports, physically hurting or pushing a player by a coach is just pathetic, and frankly lazy. Tell you what, I had an abusive hockey coach when I was a kid. Do I remember that fondly? Hell no. If I ran into that coach on the street when I was older I would’ve beaten the living s— out of him. Tough? It’s cowardly — your players can’t hit back. I’ve probably been in at least 30-40 hockey fights, and a good number of school yard fights as a kid, and a couple as an adult. Toughness doesn’t come from some douchebag coach bring physically aggressive with a kid. Responsibly and accountability doesn’t come from some dad beating his kid. And btw I grew up with one parent, a responsible loving parent. That’s what kids need.

This is such a good post, thanks for putting this into words. 

I'll add that being a good parent isn't molding your kid into what you want them to be, how you want them to think, or what you want them to believe; it's enabling them to figure all that out for themselves and loving them unconditionally. Unconditional love for a kid starts with enabling them to be themselves, even if it is different than you and what you want. 

So many parents try to force their kids to be what they want and it's sad. 

[BGleas]

10 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

This is such a good post, thanks for putting this into words. 

I'll add that being a good parent isn't molding your kid into what you want them to be, how you want them to think, or what you want them to believe; it's enabling them to figure all that out for themselves and loving them unconditionally. Unconditional love for a kid starts with enabling them to be themselves, even if it is different than you and what you want. 

So many parents try to force their kids to be what they want and it's sad. 

Agree, @Hoosierhoopster‘s post was great, and so is your, KoB!

My job as a parent (3 kids between 13-8) is to love my kids, give them the tools to be happy, productive adults that can think for themselves and enjoy life. 

This is going in a bit of a different direction, but with my kids being the ages they are I see so many parents, and you see it on Facebook all the time, saying “I’m my child’s only advocate and if I don’t fight for them nobody will and you have to do the same for your kids.” 

These parents are the ones always yelling at the coach because their kid isn’t the star or playing enough. These are the parents showing up at school to blame the teacher every time their kid gets a bad grade or gets in trouble. I could go on and on. 

I think this is a huge problem. My job isn’t to advocate for my kids. My job is teach them to advocate for themselves. We teach our kids how to approach their coach, teacher, etc. and give them the tools to handle these thing on their own. Teach them how to advocate for themselves. 

[IUFLA]

16 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I have a different take on “tough love.” 
 

That would include, in my book, corporal punishment (belt whipping etc), or letting your kid sit in jail (as referenced), or being what is basically an abusive coach - of kids or college players.

I'm not sure how much different your feelings, beside a few nuances, are from what's been said. I think corporal punishment, both in the home and in schools, went out a generation ago if not longer. When I went to 7th grade at Martinsville Jr High, there was a shop teacher there (and also my homeroom teacher) named Claude Marsh. Older guy, probably 70 when I had him. But the first project you worked on was a paddle. When you were finished, he hung them all on a wall, and if he had cause to invoke a paddling on you, he used the one you made. We gave him no issues. His 8th grade counterpart would have you sit on a high stool in the hall feeding a teddy bear with a bottle when classes let out. Both would be unacceptable today. By the time my kids got to elementary school in the 90s, it was a thing of the past. And, although my father used it on me in a very limited capacity, I never used it on my children.

But there WERE repercussions for wayward behavior. They were swift, unbending, and consistent. Grounding, being made to stay in their room, and extra chores seemed to work well. The worst thing you could do to my two older ones was take one away from the other (they're 19 months apart...they last one was 10 years after the 2nd one so it was a different experience). They were, and still are, best friends.

But, I really didn't have many issues with my kids. A female friend of the family told me that "Oh, those girls get so much good attention, they don't need to act up to get the bad kind." We parented. We didn't stick them in front of a TV or, as is today's wont, push an iPad in their hands to occupy them, and I see a LOT of that. We went places and did things as a family. We played games...We had fun. 

Today I see kids running wild in grocery stores, or making a scene in restaurants. My wife and I go out late on weekend nights to dinner at usually a nice place. We try to miss the "kiddie crowd." But, numerous times I've seen people have small kids out at 9 at night. The kid is cranky, loud, and running around the restaurant. That would not have been acceptable for my children. 

Too many parents today aren't willing to do the heavy lifting of being a parent. And it is hard. 

As for the "leave them in jail" comment, I've never been in jail a day in my life, so I guess old Dad's words were enough. Don't know if he would have made good on his promise. But I will say, he was an excellent father. 

As far as sports go, the coaches I had were never physically abusive, unless you count running until you puke physical abuse. They'd get on you hard verbally, but that's where today's generation suffers I think. Can't say anything even remotely harsh or you'll pay the price.

11 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

This is such a good post, thanks for putting this into words. 

I'll add that being a good parent isn't molding your kid into what you want them to be, how you want them to think, or what you want them to believe; it's enabling them to figure all that out for themselves and loving them unconditionally. Unconditional love for a kid starts with enabling them to be themselves, even if it is different than you and what you want. 

So many parents try to force their kids to be what they want and it's sad. 

I'm interested...Do you have kids, and if so, what ages?

[Hoosierhoopster]

@IUFLA I didn't post to criticize anyone, but to comment on the whole "tough love" concept, and including how it gets kind of romanticized, including in this thread, and the idea that parents today are "soft" and can't control their kids. I disagree with that line of thinking. Times change, including how kids are disciplined. 

Yes, corporal punishment, at least in schools, is mostly a thing of the past (for good reason) -- I remember the paddle in our middle school -- but I'm no fan of spanking and other forms of physicality against a kid, or player, as a concept of teaching them to behave or to instill discipline. It's lazy, on the part of the parent or coach, and it doesn't teach kids/players anything other than the use of force or violence by someone bigger than them, or with authority, to get what they want. The reason corporal punishment has gone away is we've learned over time that it's damaging.

You give an example of kids out late in a restaurant, running wild. So  the parents there either aren't doing what most parents in any generation would do, they're not teaching their kids good behavior in a restaurant -- or, they have and the kids have that crazy kid energy and the parents are stuck trying to deal with it.  

 On wayward behavior, most parents have repercussions like grounding and being told to stay in a room, and chores. That's not tough love in my book, just basic parenting. 

I fully agree about not just sticking the kids in front of a tv or handing them an iPhone and disappearing, and that parenting is hard. Parenting is hard, sometimes really hard. Technology, for all its good, makes it easy for a parent to slack off, or without really thinking about it to step away. That's a tough issue for parents with young kids today, imo, because computer technology, phones, tablets, laptops, etc., is everywhere and it's so fascinating to kids (and, frankly, to the parents, who themselves are tied up in their phones). It's really important to spend real time with your kids, including the outdoor stuff etc., but that comes down to how involved the parents are. It's always a balance, but the more time anyone spends with their kids the better.

The sports 'tough love' idea set me off a bit because I grew up in sports in that environment, 70's and 80's. My primary sport, hockey, is more violent and physical than football or any other sport (yes, it is) and I loved it. Let me hit you at 25 mph or so into the boards (I knocked a player through the boards and into the Zamboni shed in one game) or catch you as you turn to receive the puck on the break. But that's player v player. The tough love idea like the comment above about throwing a ball at the player/kid, or the RMK - style verbal and physical, army style 'handling' of players to push them into line, or the shoving of players, that old school crap is gone for good reason. It's not a reflection that today's players are "coddled," that stuff is silly. They're not coddled, they get all kinds of discipline, just not the abusive kind.

 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

 

I'm interested...Do you have kids, and if so, what ages?

I do! I have a four year old daughter. 

[IUFLA]

I certainly didn't mean it to come off that way. I just think our viewpoints aren't all that different, except maybe what I see as a lack of actual parenting by some today.

You have to at some point ask yourself, why are kids living at home longer? I realize student debt plays a role, but if my kids were still living in my house into their 30s, I'd question how well I did my job as a parent. 

 

[IUFLA]

57 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I do! I have a four year old daughter. 

That's awesome. I have 3 girls and they're great people. I miss the days when they were that age.

Teens and young adults can try your nerves a bit, but if you do your job now, as I'm sure you do, it's not that bad...

[KoB2011]

Just now, IUFLA said:

That's awesome. I have 3 girls and they're great people. I miss the days when they were that age.

Teens and young adults can try your nerves a bit, but if you do your job now, as I'm sure you do, it's not that bad...

Yeah, it's such a fun age. We are working on another, wish they'd be a bit closer in age but you can't always control that. 

I know we will run into challenges when she gets older, but she's a good kid with a sweet heart, so I know we will get through it. 

Girls rock!

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I do! I have a four year old daughter. 

Treasure every day. Boy or girl. They grow up so fast.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I certainly didn't mean it to come off that way. I just think our viewpoints aren't all that different, except maybe what I see as a lack of actual parenting by some today.

You have to at some point ask yourself, why are kids living at home longer? I realize student debt plays a role, but if my kids were still living in my house into their 30s, I'd question how well I did my job as a parent. 

 

I think the living at home thing is an interesting discussion and I'm not sure there is necessarily one answer that covers it. You've mentioned parenting and student debt which I think plays into it, but I also think we have to look at the skyrocketing price of homes combined with stagnant wages as well. 

[BGleas]

15 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think the living at home thing is an interesting discussion and I'm not sure there is necessarily one answer that covers it. You've mentioned parenting and student debt which I think plays into it, but I also think we have to look at the skyrocketing price of homes combined with stagnant wages as well. 

I think the bolded is not considered enough. These things have changed so much and the expenses that we (current parents or just society in general) have increased at a much greater rate than incomes have. 

My parents bought their first house (the house we lived in when my sister and I wore born) in their early 30's for $39,000. Today that house was be at least mid-$300,000's if not more. My parents didn't have a cable bill, cell phone data plans and cell phones, internet bills (and no, cell phones and internet are not a luxury in 2020, they're a necessity), it didn't cost $250 for me to play travel basketball in 5th grade, etc., etc.

Add all of that together, and the fact that I probably make less money at my age than my dad did at this age, or at least comparable. I certainly don't make 800% more money at my age than my Dad did at this age, yet that's the percent increase in the price of the first home he bought vs. the first home my wife and I bought, and that doesn't take into account all of those new bills I mentioned. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I certainly didn't mean it to come off that way. I just think our viewpoints aren't all that different, except maybe what I see as a lack of actual parenting by some today.

You have to at some point ask yourself, why are kids living at home longer? I realize student debt plays a role, but if my kids were still living in my house into their 30s, I'd question how well I did my job as a parent. 

 

That is a hard one — but student debt is out of control (and courtesy of federal policy both taking restrictions / regulations off college tuition and removing the ability to deduct tuition interest), and the Job opportunities and market has changed.

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Yeah, it's such a fun age. We are working on another, wish they'd be a bit closer in age but you can't always control that. 

I know we will run into challenges when she gets older, but she's a good kid with a sweet heart, so I know we will get through it. 

Girls rock!

Those years, 4-12 or so, are so special. I’ll say daughters are easier — in my experience they really are — but the kid you have now will still become a somewhat different person as a teen and young adult. Those teen years are just crazy, an considering your teens are using a different part of their brain to reason, and are going through crazy hormonal change and headed into become adults, that makes sense. Not taking away from the fun times in teen years and watching your kid become their own person, but geez those years with your young kids just go too fast, they are truly special years — enjoy every day 

[IUFLA]

4 hours ago, BGleas said:

and no, cell phones and internet are not a luxury in 2020, they're a necessity

Come on, @BGleas... That's not true at all...