IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 16 minutes ago, HoosierDom said: You cherry picked. Start your calculation after the 2nd game instead of the 4th and you will get a different result. What you're missing I guess is, the first 4 games were against inferior competition. That's why I started there. Western Illinois, Portland St, North Alabama, and Troy. I don't need a guard that shoots 53% from 3 against that group. I need a guard that shoots 40% consistently against Big 10 competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 3 hours ago, IUFLA said: How can you compare a game of chance to an acquired skill? The only thing that's even close to being true is that there are 2 outcomes to both. In flipping a coin, chance dictates that 50%of the time it will be heads, and 50 % of the time it will be tails. In shooting a basketball, such is not the case. The percentage you make is dictated by your skill, not luck. If I had gone through and only selected the games where Al shot poorly, THAT would be cherry picking. I picked 24 consecutive games in the middle of the season, after we (and Al) had feasted on cupcakes...his shooting did improve the final 4 games as I demonstrated... So, to satisfy you and @Hoosierhoopster let's say this... For the first 4 games of last season, Al consistently shot 53% In the middle 24 games Al consistently shot 30% In the final 4 games of the year, Al consistently shot 38%... I'd call that consistently inconsistent... In all seriousness this is completely baseless. By the way, how is Al shooting tonight? Think his shooting is important to the team? Of course it is. And at some point my friend you should accept when your argument has gone south. Al has improved his shooting every year, 29 percent, 35 percent, 38 percent, your refusal to acknowledge what is absolutely basic demonstrate increased average shooting over multiple years to try to label him inconsistent by cherry picking a short period has no merit at all. That’s just truth my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 10 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: In all seriousness this is completely baseless. By the way, how is Al shooting tonight? Think his shooting is important to the team? Of course it is. And at some point my friend you should accept when your argument has gone south. Al has improved his shooting every year, 29 percent, 35 percent, 38 percent, your refusal to acknowledge what is absolutely basic demonstrate increased average shooting over multiple years to try to label him inconsistent by cherry picking a short period has no merit at all. That’s just truth my friend Your opinion...I was going to answer this fully, but decided that in doing so, it would require that I crap on a kid I like and respect....and I'm not doing that... I'll just say this...You win games in the B1G by making plays during crunch time when the pressure is on...Audige and Ayo did it to us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDom Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 11 hours ago, IUFLA said: What you're missing I guess is, the first 4 games were against inferior competition. That's why I started there. Western Illinois, Portland St, North Alabama, and Troy. I don't need a guard that shoots 53% from 3 against that group. I need a guard that shoots 40% consistently against Big 10 competition. The next 3 look pretty cupcake like too - yet you left them out. The last 4 were not cupcakes - yet you left them out. Durham is not a great shooter, but as he showed last night, he can hit the open shot. Not at an elite level, but enough to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, HoosierDom said: The next 3 look pretty cupcake like too - yet you left them out. The last 4 were not cupcakes - yet you left them out. Durham is not a great shooter, but as he showed last night, he can hit the open shot. Not at an elite level, but enough to help. You need to go back and read what @Hoosierhoopsterwas asserting...that it was "not fair to label him an inconsistent shooter." It's totally fair as I demonstrated...The very meaning of inconsistent "not staying the same throughout." Last year, he started hot, was mediocre for 24 games, and finished out the season on a strong note... That's the very definition of "inconsistent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, IUFLA said: You need to go back and read what @Hoosierhoopsterwas asserting...that it was "not fair to label him an inconsistent shooter." It's totally fair as I demonstrated...The very meaning of inconsistent "not staying the same throughout." Last year, he started hot, was mediocre for 24 games, and finished out the season on a strong note... That's the very definition of "inconsistent." You didn't demonstrate anything, you cherry picked and ignore 3 years of demonstrated improved shooting, 29%, 35%, 38% over a FULL season. This is a broken record on flat out cherry picked bad reasoning. This conversation is getting old and I'm going to step away from it as it's now clear you just don't acknowledge when you're wrong. You're wrong. You can take any play and selectively pick a group of games, a month or whatever, and say see look in this period he shot X. The guys are shooting, generally 3 to 5 3's a game, over the course of any limited period there will be reduced percentages, that doesn't mean you ignore entire seasons, or three years, you're just wrong. If you want to call him a streaky shooter, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: You didn't demonstrate anything, you cherry picked and ignore 3 years of demonstrated improved shooting, 29%, 35%, 38% over a FULL season. This is a broken record on flat out cherry picked bad reasoning. This conversation is getting old and I'm going to step away from it as it's now clear you just don't acknowledge when you're wrong. You're wrong. You can take any play and selectively pick a group of games, a month or whatever, and say see look in this period he shot X. The guys are shooting, generally 3 to 5 3's a game, over the course of any limited period there will be reduced percentages, that doesn't mean you ignore entire seasons, or three years, you're just wrong. If you want to call him a streaky shooter, go for it. Your problem seems to be the with the definition of the word YOU used...As a matter of fact, if you had said, "It's not fair to label Al a terrible/bad shooter", I would have agreed with you...But you didn't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDom Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 42 minutes ago, IUFLA said: You need to go back and read what @Hoosierhoopsterwas asserting...that it was "not fair to label him an inconsistent shooter." It's totally fair as I demonstrated...The very meaning of inconsistent "not staying the same throughout." Last year, he started hot, was mediocre for 24 games, and finished out the season on a strong note... That's the very definition of "inconsistent." No. A cherry picked sample of games where he shoots slightly below his average does not make him an inconsistent shooter. That's statistical noise, it means nothing. It could apply to every player ever. It applies to a flipped coin. He was mediocre, that I agree with. He is a mediocre shooter (for a SG). As long as he's smart about when he takes those shots, that should be pretty helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, HoosierDom said: No. A cherry picked sample of games where he shoots slightly below his average does not make him an inconsistent shooter. That's statistical noise, it means nothing. It could apply to every player ever. It applies to a flipped coin. He was mediocre, that I agree with. He is a mediocre shooter (for a SG). As long as he's smart about when he takes those shots, that should be pretty helpful. Again, for whatever reason you seem to not be willing to accept the meaning of the word... That's your issue, not mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 26 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Your problem seems to be the with the definition of the word YOU used...As a matter of fact, if you had said, "It's not fair to label Al a terrible/bad shooter", I would have agreed with you...But you didn't... OK, and my last post comes across harsh so I'll just apologize for how harsh it sounded. That said, and without meaning to get drawn back into this further, I think you're wrapped up in a definitional position, that you can show a shooter -- Al -- is inconsistent by picking a limited period of time and then saying you've demonstrated he is an inconsistent shooter by selectively looking at that period of time. Put aside the definition for a minute -- because by your definition of inconsistent you could pick just about any shooter and find periods where their shot wasn't falling, and then label them inconsistent. It just doesn't work that way. Any deep shooter goes through slumps. Heck, for an example of my favorite all-time player, Reggie Miller, I remember a season where he went through a good quarter to half-season shooting poorly. He's one of the best, most prolific, and most accurate deep shooters of all time. But by your definition, he's inconsistent. Every single shooter is going to go through slumps -- that's basically what you're looking at -- every shooter is going to be streaky at times, and some more than others, that's why you look at the big picture, their season average, or their conference play average if the non-con is weak. CAM repeatedly calls Al the best shooter on the team. Why? Because he has demonstrated that he is. There are faults in his game, he is not our best player, but he has been our best shooter. That's just not reasonably debatable, and calling him inconsistent, by ignoring an entire season's shooting and cherry picking a limited range of games to try to prove a point, it just wrong. I am not calling him Curry or a Reggie, but the kid can shoot, at a 38% clip. He hasn't been shooting well this season, clearly, and particularly after injuring his ankle, but his shooting last night was reflective of what he has demonstrated over three years on the team. You don't just ignore entire seasons of shooting to label a guy, that's just not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said: OK, and my last post comes across harsh so I'll just apologize for how harsh it sounded. That said, and without meaning to get drawn back into this further, I think you're wrapped up in a definitional position, that you can show a shooter -- Al -- is inconsistent by picking a limited period of time and then saying you've demonstrated he is an inconsistent shooter by selectively looking at that period of time. Put aside the definition for a minute -- because by your definition of inconsistent you could pick just about any shooter and find periods where their shot wasn't falling, and then label them inconsistent. It just doesn't work that way. Any deep shooter goes through slumps. Heck, for an example of my favorite all-time player, Reggie Miller, I remember a season where he went through a good quarter to half-season shooting poorly. He's one of the best, most prolific, and most accurate deep shooters of all time. But by your definition, he's inconsistent. Every single shooter is going to go through slumps -- that's basically what you're looking at -- every shooter is going to be streaky at times, and some more than others, that's why you look at the big picture, their season average, or their conference play average if the non-con is weak. CAM repeatedly calls Al the best shooter on the team. Why? Because he has demonstrated that he is. There are faults in his game, he is not our best player, but he has been our best shooter. That's just not reasonably debatable, and calling him inconsistent, by ignoring an entire season's shooting and cherry picking a limited range of games to try to prove a point, it just wrong. I am not calling him Curry or a Reggie, but the kid can shoot, at a 38% clip. He hasn't been shooting well this season, clearly, and particularly after injuring his ankle, but his shooting last night was reflective of what he has demonstrated over three years on the team. You don't just ignore entire seasons of shooting to label a guy, that's just not right. We'll agree to disagree then...If a player starts hot, has a "slump" (as some have said) over, and you keep ignoring this, a prolonged series of consecutive games that comprised 75% of the season, then has 4 good shooting games at the end of the season, I don't know if there's another word in the English language that fits... As I said, I don't think Al is a terrible shooter...I'm just not sure I want him taking game-winners for us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Just now, IUFLA said: We'll agree to disagree then...If a player starts hot, has a "slump" (as some have said) over, and you keep ignoring this, a prolonged series of consecutive games that comprised 75% of the season, then has 4 good shooting games at the end of the season, I don't know if there's another word in the English language that fits... As I said, I don't think Al is a terrible shooter...I'm just not sure I want him taking game-winners for us... OK man, I'm back to seeing that you are incapable of acknowledging when you're wrong. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 23 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: OK man, I'm back to seeing that you are incapable of acknowledging when you're wrong. Oh well. More than capable...I just won't acknowledge that I'm wrong when I'm not... I'll leave it at that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegrassIU Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Pretty heated for a discussion about a players shooting. 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierinbham Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 Congrats to both Al and Rob. The smiles on both their faces, and how excited their teammates were for both of them, was pure joy to watch. If we're going to be successful this year, we need them both to do what they did last night. Neither needs to be a superstar, but the play where Rob drives then fires a pass off to Al for the 3 shows what they both do best. They both still missed wide open looks, but you could easily observe their confidence and assertiveness increase throughout the game. Much prefer Rob running the point if he's confident to push the pace and look to drive. Rob, Al, AF, and Trey all playing downhill and making aggressive drives can lead to drop offs to our posts, or kickouts for open 3's. Hope it comes together like it did for the 2002 team. That team started slow too if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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