NBA Thread

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

The Pacers problem isn't that they're a small market team, it's that they've made bad decisions. If Larry Bird had made better decisions, they would have been able to keep PG and build a better, more competitive team around him. The Knicks, maybe the biggest market team, have been horrible for years and they've had several times where they had cap space but couldn't land the big fish free agent. Toronto has been competitive for years and they're not a free agent destination and they haven't had top 3 picks, but they hired an excellent GM, made smart decisions and then cashed in their chips when they had a chance to, and now they're one game from being the champs. 

OKC had no problem convincing PG to stay, to the point that he didn't even take a meeting with the Lakers. It's because OKC is a well run organization with a smart, proven GM. Look at the Nets, big market for sure, but they've improved quickly without any lottery picks. Why? Smart management, after they dumped the guys that made the crazy trade with the Celtics. 

The Celtics also, while I guess a big market, the Celtics have never been a free agent destination, but look how quickly Danny Ainge made them a contender again after the Pierce, Garnett, Allen run. Most teams would have gone into the dumpster for several years, but the Celtics are well run with a smart executive and they had like one bad year and were quickly back in contention. 

It's all about hiring the right management. There's really only one team in the NBA that benefits from the "big market" thing, and that's the Lakers. The Lakers are the only team I can think that regardless of the roster, the management, the ownership, etc., etc., can sign an elite free agent no matter what. 

I am saying player like AD won't leave new Orleans through free agency and come to a team like the Pacers because he will go somewhere that is more marketable.  Kawahi will not leave Toronto for the Pacers because if he leaves it will be for a larger market team.  Unless you are fortunate enough o have top pick when there is once a generation player then it is hard to build if you are a team like the Pacers.

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am saying player like AD won't leave new Orleans through free agency and come to a team like the Pacers because he will go somewhere that is more marketable.  Kawahi will not leave Toronto for the Pacers because if he leaves it will be for a larger market team.  Unless you are fortunate enough o have top pick when there is once a generation player then it is hard to build if you are a team like the Pacers.

And I'm saying, if the Pacers were better run, they'd be a team with PG that would have an opportunity to trade for AD to pair together. Why didn't the Pacers try and get into the mix for Kawhi? Toronto doesn't get free agents any easier than the Pacers and they haven't had top picks in recent years, yet they put themselves in a position to add Kawhi to their roster, without giving up young guys like Siakim or OG, and now are in a position the potentially convince him to stay. 

PG wouldn't leave the Pacers to sign with OKC via free agency. Garnett wouldn't leave the Timberwolves to sign with the Celtics via free agency. You have to have smart management, regardless of the market to make those things happen. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by BGleas

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

And I'm saying, if the Pacers were better run, they'd be a team with PG that would have an opportunity to trade for AD to pair together. Why didn't the Pacers try and get into the mix for Kawhi? Toronto doesn't get free agents any easier than the Pacers and they haven't had top picks in recent years, yet they put themselves in a position to add Kawhi to their roster, without giving up young guys like Siakim or OG, and now are in a position the potentially convince him to stay. 

PG wouldn't leave the Pacers to sign with OKC via free agency. Garnett wouldn't leave the Timberwolves to sign with the Celtics via free agency. You have to have smart management, regardless of the market to make those things happen. 

Actually I am glad that PG left because I can't stand his whiny butt and glad we have VO over him.  I think the Pacers have a very good front office right now and Bird did enough to get them to the Eastern Conference finals a few times.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Actually I am glad that PG left because I can't stand his whiny butt and glad we have VO over him.  I think the Pacers have a very good front office right now and Bird did enough to get them to the Eastern Conference finals a few times.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic

So are the Pacers good or are they stuck in mediocrity? I'm confused? Do want them to get better or do you like where they're at? You're complaining about them not being able to get Anthony Davis as a free agent, but who else can? Basically just the Lakers and maybe the Knicks. That's it, and it's probably really just the Lakers. Yet, there's a good chance the Lakers aren't the team that ends up with him. Why? Smart, creative front offices that aren't afraid to take a gamble. 

If the Celtics get him, it's not because they're some big market team, it's because they've acquired the assets to make the move and are being aggressive, etc. 

Maybe it will be the Pacers? Who knows. I don't have cap numbers in front of me or anything, but you throw Turner, Holiday, a bunch of 1st round picks, find a 3rd team to spice it up and maybe the Pacers can get for a year and convince him to stay and pari with VO. Sometimes you have to take a gamble. 

The point is, you don't have to be LA or New York to acquire great players in the NBA. Last I checked, PG went to OKC, Kawhi went to Toronto, Jimmy Butler ended up in Minnesota and then Philly, D'Angelo Russel ended up in Brooklyn, Paul Milsap in Denver. 

[Zlinedavid]

Big market teams are like the playground bully. They look impressive, can throw their weight around and can knock you over if all you do is cower in fear.

So how do you beat a playground bully? Sit around and whine about how they're so much bigger? Nope. Fight smart. You get faster and more mobile and get your shots in without getting blasted. Or, you go the opposite route: find out something embarrassing about him and throw it back at him.

[IU Scott]

36 minutes ago, BGleas said:

So are the Pacers good or are they stuck in mediocrity? I'm confused? Do want them to get better or do you like where they're at? You're complaining about them not being able to get Anthony Davis as a free agent, but who else can? Basically just the Lakers and maybe the Knicks. That's it, and it's probably really just the Lakers. Yet, there's a good chance the Lakers aren't the team that ends up with him. Why? Smart, creative front offices that aren't afraid to take a gamble. 

If the Celtics get him, it's not because they're some big market team, it's because they've acquired the assets to make the move and are being aggressive, etc. 

Maybe it will be the Pacers? Who knows. I don't have cap numbers in front of me or anything, but you throw Turner, Holiday, a bunch of 1st round picks, find a 3rd team to spice it up and maybe the Pacers can get for a year and convince him to stay and pari with VO. Sometimes you have to take a gamble. 

The point is, you don't have to be LA or New York to acquire great players in the NBA. Last I checked, PG went to OKC, Kawhi went to Toronto, Jimmy Butler ended up in Minnesota and then Philly, D'Angelo Russel ended up in Brooklyn, Paul Milsap in Denver. 

Actually the Pacers are around 43 million under the cap and as of right now only have 6 or 7 players under contract.  To me the Pacers are stuck in just being good or mediocre because they never was willing to tank a few seasons.  To me teams like the Pacers best chance of becoming championship caliber is getting high draft picks 3-4 year sin a row.

[BGleas]

The Lakers and Knicks most recent playoff appearance is both in 2013. Teams to make the playoffs each of the last six seasons since? Spurs, Warriors, Rockets, Trailblazers and Raptors. Other teams to make the playoffs at least half the seasons since then? Celtics (5), Pacers (4), Thunder (4), Bucks (3), Jazz (3). Not exactly a murder's row of massive market teams. 

So while IUScott is correct that neither Anthony Davis nor Kawhi Leonard is signing with the Pacers or Bucks or Celtics or Thunder, or Blazers as a free agent, there is/was nothing stopping those teams from getting creative and aggressive, like the Raptors did last offseason, and turning their franchise into a legit contender this offseason. 

What if Portland had offered CJ MCcollom and some other pieces and acquired Kawhi? Maybe they'd be in the Finals right now. What if the Pacers throw in Holiday, Sabonis and some other assets and make a run at Davis? Shoot, OKC could offer Westbrook and other assets and build a team around PG and Davis? All of these teams, if smart, creative and aggressive can turn themselves into contenders overnight. 

Edit: My numbers might be a little off in the first paragraph. The teams listed are consecutive playoff appearances, not total appearances since 2013. So for example, the Jazz may actually have more than 3 playoff appearances since 2013, but they've been in the last 3 seasons. Point still stands. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by BGleas

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Actually the Pacers are around 43 million under the cap and as of right now only have 6 or 7 players under contract.  To me the Pacers are stuck in just being good or mediocre because they never was willing to tank a few seasons.  To me teams like the Pacers best chance of becoming championship caliber is getting high draft picks 3-4 year sin a row.

I don't disagree with you in terms of 3-4 years ago. I was one arguing at the time that they should have taken the Celtics offer for PG. It would have netted them high draft picks with lots of potential and a bunch of short-term tradeable contracts. But, the Pacers didn't do that, they went the VO/Sabonis route, which has admittedly worked out well for them.  But with all of that in the past, there was nothing stopping the Pacers from getting involved in the Kawhi deal and there is nothing stopping them from getting in the AD sweepstakes. They might not be able to put the best offer together, but you never know, nobody thought VO/Sabonis was the best offer for George and it worked. 

But, the one thing we agree on is that if they just sit tight, they'll continue to be a perennial 4-6 or so seed in the East because while they have a good roster, especially before the VO injury, I don't think they currently have a ton of room to improve it drastically, unless they get aggressive. 

[FKIM01]

13 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

Places that would be better long term destinations for AD than the Knicks or Lakers:

1. Siberia

2. The Pyongyang pickup game between Rodman and Kim Jung-Un.

3. The Saskatchewan Rattlers

I thought the same.  It's like he's attracted to trainwreck franchises for some reason.  Just bizarre...

[BobSaccamanno]

Regarding AD, from a player's perspective, winning is far more important than playing in a huge market, as he seems to be attracted to.  Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, and Vince Lombardi have been as big sports figures in fans' minds as you can find and they are from tiny Green Bay.  Peyton is a monster figure coming out of Indy.  I can't turn on the TV without seeing Aaron or Peyton in an ad.  I live in Chicago.  I doubt most basketball fans could name five Bulls without google.

Edited June 11, 2019 by BobSaccamanno

[BobSaccamanno]

I have as much GS fatigue as anybody, but what a game last night.  Those shots they hit late staring at elimination were amazing.

Boogie.  I guess he played well earlier.  But down the stretch he was a poster child for low IQ players with talent who don't know how to win.

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

What if the Pacers throw in Holiday, Sabonis and some other assets and make a run at Davis? Shoot, OKC could offer Westbrook and other assets and build a team around PG and Davis? All of these teams, if smart, creative and aggressive can turn themselves into contenders overnight. 

Wouldn't that be wild?  Probably won't happen unless new Orleans doesn't want to make instant title contenders out of Boston.  

We know Presti has serious Kahuna's, and honestly, you have to look at Westbrook and just admit he doesn't play championship ball.  Can anyone offer a better player than Westbrook?   Getting Davis to resign in Oklahoma is unlikely but pg did it.  

[NotIThatLives]

For our information.

https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/

 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Wouldn't that be wild?  Probably won't happen unless new Orleans doesn't want to make instant title contenders out of Boston.  

We know Presti has serious Kahuna's, and honestly, you have to look at Westbrook and just admit he doesn't play championship ball.  Can anyone offer a better player than Westbrook?   Getting Davis to resign in Oklahoma is unlikely but pg did it.  

Who knows, right? What if a PG/Davis led team makes the Finals or even wins the championship and then you still have dysfunction with the Lakers and maybe LeBron has another year where age and wear/tear cause him to miss time, and all of the sudden AD loves OKC the same way PG did? Crazier things have happened. I don't know what Kawhi ends up doing, but I'd say there's a 50% shot he stays in Toronto, even if it's a 1+1 short term deal. Toronto would take a title and 2-3 years on Kawhi, right?

The larger point is, there are numerous ways to skin a cat and the so-called "small market" teams are not at nearly the disadvantage some fans portray. It just takes smart, creative, aggressive management to get it done. The Lakers are really the only team with a "big market" advantage regardless of how they're being run. 

[NotIThatLives]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

A twist to this is the idiotic rule that ties the super max deal to making the all star team, which in turn gives sports writers a direct say in whether or not a player gets the super max. Freaking ridiculous. That's what happened with PG, he didn't -- couldn't -- get the big money contract from the Pacers because he wasn't voted onto the all star team that last year. It's a moronic situation.

I think you're meaning the all NBA teams.

Have a question for everyone regarding the supermax so say the Hornets wind up giving Kemba Walker a super-max contract. Do they get a bump on what their salary cap is or do they still have to work within the confines of the salary cap just like everyone else. I don't feel like there's really an advantage for Charlotte to sign Kemba Walker to 40 million dollars a year they're going to wind up like Memphis and at the very bottom picking Last Tear in a few years.  

Honestly same thing would have happened with Paul George you're not going to bring any help in here paying these guys supermax.  One guy getting almost 40% of your salary cap is absurd. 

[dgambill]

24 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I think you're meaning the all NBA teams.

Have a question for everyone regarding the supermax so say the Hornets wind up giving Kemba Walker a super-max contract. Do they get a bump on what their salary cap is or do they still have to work within the confines of the salary cap just like everyone else. I don't feel like there's really an advantage for Charlotte to sign Kemba Walker to 40 million dollars a year they're going to wind up like Memphis and at the very bottom picking Last Tear in a few years.  

Honestly same thing would have happened with Paul George you're not going to bring any help in here paying these guys supermax.  One guy getting almost 40% of your salary cap is absurd. 

No bump. There are thresholds over the cap where you get progressively fined for going over the cap. In Kembas case they are far too far away from being competitive to lock him up to those numbers....if it would have been Klay instead and your trying to keep your championship caliber team together ok. Thing with GS is that they are so far over the cap that even if Durant doesn’t re-sign they will still be over the cap (you can only go over the cap to keep your own players) and thus couldn’t replace him. The only reason they signed KD to begin with was a rare case when right after the collective bargaining agreement the cap jumped way up and GS still had Klay, Curry, and Green all on like rookie/affordable deals...so they could sign Durant and then as those guys came up they went over the cap to re-sign them. So GS can go back over the cap to re-sign Durant but if he walks they can’t spend that money to find a replacement...that’s why this will likely be the end of their dynasty if Durant leaves.

[dgambill]

Issue with the Pacers are kinda two-fold. They have had some sketchy player acquisitions opting to trade and not sign young guys and draft picks for older guys in effort to win now trading for Scola and signing Al Jefferson and Stuckey and Monta Ellis etc and the fact they won’t go over the cap. If you won’t go over the cap then it really limits what moves you can make. When you are getting to back to back ECF and you won’t pay to get over the hump...your not going to beat a Heat team full of stars who spend the money. The Pacers are also risk adverse...if it means pushing to get an 8 seed and a first rd exit so they can get the money from two playoff games they will do it instead of selling off pieces and setting themselves up for the next year and acquiring young talent. They are happy to be middle of the pack then to tank and rebuild...they want the money from butts in seats over going all in on a process.

Edited June 11, 2019 by dgambill

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

I think you're meaning the all NBA teams.

Have a question for everyone regarding the supermax so say the Hornets wind up giving Kemba Walker a super-max contract. Do they get a bump on what their salary cap is or do they still have to work within the confines of the salary cap just like everyone else. I don't feel like there's really an advantage for Charlotte to sign Kemba Walker to 40 million dollars a year they're going to wind up like Memphis and at the very bottom picking Last Tear in a few years.  

Honestly same thing would have happened with Paul George you're not going to bring any help in here paying these guys supermax.  One guy getting almost 40% of your salary cap is absurd. 

Yes that's what I meant

[dwtaylor1055]

Reports from Wojo(biggest NBA insider when it comes to trades, signings, etc) that Pacers have interest in Mike Conley.  They also want to resign Bojan and resign Thad(at the right price).  Question for a Conley trade, what will it take?  To match salary as close as possible, here are two few options:

Trade Option #1: Turner($18 Mil)/Leaf($4 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)..... $8 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $35 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA. 

Trade Option #2: Turner($18 Mil)/McDermott($7.3 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)...$5 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $38 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA.

Sabonis is still on a rookie deal for the 2019-2020 season so I cannot see him being included in a trade for Conley.  The Griz have a lot of guards plus plan on drafting Ja Morant(guard) so Aaron Holiday IMO would not be dealt. 

[IU Scott]

15 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Reports from Wojo(biggest NBA insider when it comes to trades, signings, etc) that Pacers have interest in Mike Conley.  They also want to resign Bojan and resign Thad(at the right price).  Question for a Conley trade, what will it take?  To match salary as close as possible, here are two few options:

Trade Option #1: Turner($18 Mil)/Leaf($4 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)..... $8 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $35 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA. 

Trade Option #2: Turner($18 Mil)/McDermott($7.3 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)...$5 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $38 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA.

Sabonis is still on a rookie deal for the 2019-2020 season so I cannot see him being included in a trade for Conley.  The Griz have a lot of guards plus plan on drafting Ja Morant(guard) so Aaron Holiday IMO would not be dealt. 

I like #1 and Conley would be a great pickup but I doubt if we could sign both Thad and Bojan if we get Conley.  I think Bojan will have some desperate team offer him over 20 mil a year.

[Hoosierhoopster]

25 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Reports from Wojo(biggest NBA insider when it comes to trades, signings, etc) that Pacers have interest in Mike Conley.  They also want to resign Bojan and resign Thad(at the right price).  Question for a Conley trade, what will it take?  To match salary as close as possible, here are two few options:

Trade Option #1: Turner($18 Mil)/Leaf($4 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)..... $8 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $35 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA. 

Trade Option #2: Turner($18 Mil)/McDermott($7.3 mil)/1st rd pick for Conley($30 mil)...$5 mill comes away from our expected $43 million available in cap space, so roughly $38 remaining to resign Bojan and Thad plus sign an additional FA.

Sabonis is still on a rookie deal for the 2019-2020 season so I cannot see him being included in a trade for Conley.  The Griz have a lot of guards plus plan on drafting Ja Morant(guard) so Aaron Holiday IMO would not be dealt. 

Need to look at it from the other team's perspective, to them, that's just not enough for Conley. He's getting a little long in the tooth but is still one of the better pg's out there and has been a/the centerpiece of that team.

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Need to look at it from the other team's perspective, to them, that's just not enough for Conley. He's getting a little long in the tooth but is still one of the better pg's out there and has been a/the centerpiece of that team.

Seems like lately that when teams try to trade stars they usually don't get fair market value.  At the time it did not seem like the Pacers got fair value for PG but they were desperate and needed to trade him.  To me if Memphis is set on drafting Morant they need to trade Conley and with his salary they might not be able to get fair value.

[NotIThatLives]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Seems like lately that when teams try to trade stars they usually don't get fair market value.  At the time it did not seem like the Pacers got fair value for PG but they were desperate and needed to trade him.  To me if Memphis is set on drafting Morant they need to trade Conley and with his salary they might not be able to get fair value.

Nor should they.  He'll be 32 at season start getting paid 32 and 1/2 million this year in 34 million the next year.  That's going to be a pass for me.  Memphis is already made clear they want to dump him so they are going to have to lose on this deal

[dwtaylor1055]

22 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Need to look at it from the other team's perspective, to them, that's just not enough for Conley. He's getting a little long in the tooth but is still one of the better pg's out there and has been a/the centerpiece of that team.

True, however Gasol did not fetch as much in return as what I thought(Jonas V/CJ Miles/Delon Wright and a 2022 2nd rd pick).  Jonas V may not opt into his deal and if that is the case, Memphis really didn't get much in return  besides role players off the bench(Wright and CJ). 

 

I go back and forth.  I think we need another type of player similar to Conley or better in order for us to move the needle with Vic. I do not expect the pacers to just sit and wait to let the young guys of holiday/leaf/this years 1st rd pick to grow.  If they work a trade of turner/leaf/1st for Conley and resign Thad($13 mil IMO) and Bojan($16 mil IMO) it looks like this:

 

Starters - Conley/Vic/Bojan/Thad/Sabonis

Bench - Holiday/Sumner/Doug...................They would need to sign a backup PF and backup C with their remaining money after resigning both Thad and Bojan.  You could probably get O'Quinn back on a cheap deal and get Lance to come back cheap for backup SG.  We would be thin at PF with Thad and Alize.

Edited June 12, 2019 by dwtaylor1055

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

True, however Gasol did not fetch as much in return as what I thought(Jonas V/CJ Miles/Delon Wright and a 2022 2nd rd pick).  Jonas V may not opt into his deal and if that is the case, Memphis really didn't get much in return  besides role players off the bench(Wright and CJ). 

 

I go back and forth.  I think we need another type of player similar to Conley or better in order for us to move the needle with Vic. I do not expect the pacers to just sit and wait to let the young guys of holiday/leaf/this years 1st rd pick to grow.  If they work a trade of turner/leaf/1st for Conley and resign Thad($13 mil IMO) and Bojan($16 mil IMO) it looks like this:

 

Starters - Conley/Vic/Bojan/Thad/Sabonis

Bench - Holiday/Sumner/Doug...................They would need to sign a backup PF and backup C with their remaining money after resigning both Thad and Bojan.  You could probably get O'Quinn back on a cheap deal and get Lance to come back cheap for backup SG.  We would be thin at PF with Thad and Alize.

Please for the love of God never let the Pacers get Lance back.