NBA Thread

[DC2345]

8 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

It isn't. Just search Myles Turner Warriors and you'll see lots of hits that aren't from Pacers sites. 

But in all seriousnes, while there may be many players that the Warriors would prefer to Myles, who of those guys are they getting? They need a guy who can protect the rim and keep their spacing; who they getting better than Myles?

He doesn't have a clue and doesn't realize the talk going on around the Warriors. There are several teams that value Myles because they think he can be a good 5th option on offense that protects the rim and spaces the floor for their play makers. A championship level team isn't going to want to rely on a rookie James Wiseman to do that when he isn't known as a shooter at all.  

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

 

Well actually there is real talk that they would consider it. They obviously would be wanting to get a player back that they feel fills a need. There is real chatter though that they are considering trading the pick with the Wiggins contract. 

Absolutely. There's a strong likelihood that Wiggins is included in a deal. But it's not just as a throw in salary dump. 

Myles Turner is a nice player, but the Warriors aren't looking to trade the #2 pick and Wiggins for "nice", they're working to get an all-star caliber player in return

[DC2345]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Absolutely. There's a strong likelihood that Wiggins is included in a deal. But it's not just as a throw in salary dump. 

Myles Turner is a nice player, but the Warriors aren't looking to trade the #2 pick and Wiggins for "nice", they're working to get an all-star caliber player in return

We'll see what happens. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, DC2345 said:

He doesn't have a clue and doesn't realize the talk going on around the Warriors. There are several teams that value Myles because they think he can be a good 5th option on offense that protects the rim and spaces the floor for their play makers. A championship level team isn't going to want to rely on a rookie James Wiseman to do that when he isn't known as a shooter at all.  

Did you really just say I don't have a clue?? Are you freaking serious dude?

[DC2345]

27 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Did you really just say I don't have a clue?? Are you freaking serious dude?

Well do a little research and you'll see that everything that you've written off has been seriously discussed by people within the NBA that's just a fact. It doesn't really matter though. If you got offended by that then my apologies. I didn't mean to offend you even if it came across that way. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, DC2345 said:

We'll see what happens. 

We will. And again, I'm not ruling out a deal with the Pacers, but it won't be the Pacers getting #2 and Wiggins and only having to give up Myles Turner and trade fodder. 

On the don't have a clue thing, not sure if that was meant for HH, me, or both, but we both certainly do have a clue, especially when it comes to the NBA and how these deals work. 

Doesn't mean we'll necessarily be proven right on this one, but we know the topics very well. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by BGleas

[Hoosierhoopster]

54 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Well do a little research and you'll see that everything that you've written off has been seriously discussed by people within the NBA that's just a fact. It doesn't really matter though. If you got offended by that then my apologies. I didn't mean to offend you even if it came across that way. 

A little research? OK. I'm pretty familiar with GS trade and draft history, and re earlier discussion Celtics trade history. And for your edification, Gleas worked for the Celtics for years, and has a lot of hands on knowledge of how these deals actually work and what teams actually look for. What the two of us are saying is that the proposed deal here from a GS perspective is extremely unrealistic. It is. Don't call me clueless. Don't assume a bunch of Internet trade chatter speaks to reality.

[DC2345]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

A little research? OK. I'm pretty familiar with GS trade and draft history, and re earlier discussion Celtics trade history. And for your edification, Gleas worked for the Celtics for years, and has a lot of hands on knowledge of how these deals actually work and what teams actually look for. What the two of us are saying is that the proposed deal here from a GS perspective is extremely unrealistic. It is. Don't call me clueless. Don't assume a bunch of Internet trade chatter speaks to reality.

Fair enough. We'll just see what happens. I just know what some people with sources have said. Just because he worked for the Celtics doesn't mean he knows what the warriors have in mind now. That said I still think the Pacers keep Turner so it won't matter and all this Turner talk will just be a big waste of time. 

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, BGleas said:

Absolutely. There's a strong likelihood that Wiggins is included in a deal. But it's not just as a throw in salary dump. 

Myles Turner is a nice player, but the Warriors aren't looking to trade the #2 pick and Wiggins for "nice", they're working to get an all-star caliber player in return

I think you and I see Wiggins and Turner is vastly different ways.

I think Wiggins is a negative asset and that seems to be the way many other teams feel about him with his salary. He is 7 years in the league, he kind of is what he is.

Turner is a guy that protects the rim at an elite level (something the Warriors need) and can space the floor on par with any 5 in the NBA. Will he ever be an All-Star? I kinda doubt it, but I also know he played in a terrible offensive system the past several years and he's still only 24.

This isn't just talk from a Pacers fan board or beat writer (and that isn't where this started either), talk of Turner to the Warriors is very real. What do we really think the Warriors have that the Pacers would want for Turner aside from the number 2 pick? 

[KoB2011]

59 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

A little research? OK. I'm pretty familiar with GS trade and draft history, and re earlier discussion Celtics trade history. And for your edification, Gleas worked for the Celtics for years, and has a lot of hands on knowledge of how these deals actually work and what teams actually look for. What the two of us are saying is that the proposed deal here from a GS perspective is extremely unrealistic. It is. Don't call me clueless. Don't assume a bunch of Internet trade chatter speaks to reality.

No offense to you or @BGleas, but this is something an NBA scout suggested was a good fit. So unless you're saying you guys no more than an NBA scout about the value of players and picks...

The Warriors aren't going to look at this the way any other team would; they're going to look at what they can do to win now. The Celtics example of a similar situation from a few years ago is still pretty apples to oranges (the Celts weren't serious title contenders when they had the number 1 pick and they had a young core, not an old core). But I think the Celtics are a great example of how holding draft capital too long and putting too much value on it can cost you a shot at a title. The Celtics missed the chance to make some moves that could have put them over the top and the haven't been back to an ECF since. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

We will. And again, I'm not ruling out a deal with the Pacers, but it won't be the Pacers getting #2 and Wiggins and only having to give up Myles Turner and trade fodder. 

On the don't have a clue thing, not sure if that was meant for HH, me, or both, but we both certainly do have a clue, especially when it comes to the NBA and how these deals work. 

Doesn't mean we'll necessarily be proven right on this one, but we know the topics very well. 

Is anyone actually suggesting that's exactly what the trade would be though? I haven't seen anyone suggest it would be #2 and Wiggins for Turner... I've seen suggested three team trades, things including Vic, etc., but not just that straight up. 

If that exact trade is what you're arguing against I think you're arguing against a straw man.... 

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Is anyone actually suggesting that's exactly what the trade would be though? I haven't seen anyone suggest it would be #2 and Wiggins for Turner... I've seen suggested three team trades, things including Vic, etc., but not just that straight up. 

If that exact trade is what you're arguing against I think you're arguing against a straw man.... 

It was said in this thread that not only would the Warriors have to give up #2 and Wiggins, but also throw in additional first round picks, including the future pick they have from Minnesota. 

I still don't think the Warriors are trading the #2 pick in a deal centered around Myles Turner, though I could see them doing it if Vic is included and the Pacers sweeten the pot. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

12 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

No offense to you or @BGleas, but this is something an NBA scout suggested was a good fit. So unless you're saying you guys no more than an NBA scout about the value of players and picks...

The Warriors aren't going to look at this the way any other team would; they're going to look at what they can do to win now. The Celtics example of a similar situation from a few years ago is still pretty apples to oranges (the Celts weren't serious title contenders when they had the number 1 pick and they had a young core, not an old core). But I think the Celtics are a great example of how holding draft capital too long and putting too much value on it can cost you a shot at a title. The Celtics missed the chance to make some moves that could have put them over the top and the haven't been back to an ECF since. 

KoB, Gleas has spoken pretty clearly on this. He can speak for himself, but he worked for years in the C's office and yes, he knows what the teams look at in such trades and has a background in watching them unfold. This scout is way off, man. It's a flat out bad trade idea and it won't happen. I'll buy you drinks if it does.

[BGleas]

13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

No offense to you or @BGleas, but this is something an NBA scout suggested was a good fit. So unless you're saying you guys no more than an NBA scout about the value of players and picks...

The Warriors aren't going to look at this the way any other team would; they're going to look at what they can do to win now. The Celtics example of a similar situation from a few years ago is still pretty apples to oranges (the Celts weren't serious title contenders when they had the number 1 pick and they had a young core, not an old core). But I think the Celtics are a great example of how holding draft capital too long and putting too much value on it can cost you a shot at a title. The Celtics missed the chance to make some moves that could have put them over the top and the haven't been back to an ECF since. 

I never said it wasn't a good fit or that the Warriors wouldn't trade for Turner. I don't think they will but its not a crazy idea. I'm saying the Pacers would be the ones "sweetening the pot", not the Warriors. Strong draft or not, the #2 pick is an asset you don't give up lightly. 

On the Celtics, I mean they made a Game 7 ECF appearance after drafting Tatum and Brown. Brown has played in 2 ECF's and Tatum was a starter on the team that took LeBron's Cavs 7 games. 

This year they were a contender. I'd hoped they would have gone further, but I think the bubble impacted things and last off-season I think the Horford loss was a bit of a surprise for the franchise. You add Horford and the Celtics have more depth and size, etc.

Yes, I would have loved the Celtics to cash in and get Anthony Davis with those young players, but Davis wouldn't assure he'd re-sign so the risk was too big.  

The Celtics need to add pieces and get more veteran, but the core is there to compete for titles. 

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It was said in this thread that not only would the Warriors have to give up #2 and Wiggins, but also throw in additional first round picks, including the future pick they have from Minnesota. 

I still don't think the Warriors are trading the #2 pick in a deal centered around Myles Turner, though I could see them doing it if Vic is included and the Pacers sweeten the pot. 

I just don't see the #2 pick in this years draft will get you what it normally would.  Do you think it would be enough to get Ben Simmons or a player like that.  I think this year if they want to trade that pick they won't get the haul that you normally would for that high of a draft pick.

[BGleas]

14 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

KoB, Gleas has spoken pretty clearly on this. He can speak for himself, but he worked for years in the C's office and yes, he knows what the teams look at in such trades and has a background in watching them unfold. This scout is way off, man. It's a flat out bad trade idea and it won't happen. I'll buy you drinks if it does.

I appreciate the backup,@Hoosierhoopster! But I also don't want things to get overblown. I don't have all the answers and I could end up wrong here. 

Just to be clear for everyone else or new people. I worked in PR for the Celtics front office for 5 years, so no I wasn't on a GM track or anything, so I don't want to over state my background. 

But I will say, in PR you spend a ton of time with the players, coaches and basketball people. I literally would be in the draft war room during the draft and at the draft workouts, etc.  

So I do have a feel for these things and experience. But, I also don't want to overplay that or misrepresent it. 

Edit: That experience also doesn't mean I'll be proven right or that I know more than a current NBA scout, i most likely don't, but I do have experience in these rooms, so more of an educated opinion so to speak. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by BGleas

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I just don't see the #2 pick in this years draft will get you what it normally would.  Do you think it would be enough to get Ben Simmons or a player like that.  I think this year if they want to trade that pick they won't get the haul that you normally would for that high of a draft pick.

I dont think "this years draft" matters as much as you do. It does matter, im not saying it doesn't, but it doesn't devalue the asset as much as you think.

The team it goes to could then flip it to someone else for more future assets, etc. Its a trade piece and a good one. 

Ben Simmons? No, the Sixers aren't trading Ben Simmons for the #2 pick. But as I said yesterday, I think the Warriors are looking to get, and can get, a fringe all-star player for a package with the #2 pick. Vucivic from Orlando, someone like that. Thats just an example, but he's a lot better than Turner. 

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

KoB, Gleas has spoken pretty clearly on this. He can speak for himself, but he worked for years in the C's office and yes, he knows what the teams look at in such trades and has a background in watching them unfold. This scout is way off, man. It's a flat out bad trade idea and it won't happen. I'll buy you drinks if it does.

This is absurd. I love both of you guys and respect your opinion, but a scout in today's NBA knows more about this than any of us. Stop it. 

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, BGleas said:

I dont think "this years draft" matters as much as you do. It does matter, im not saying it doesn't, but it doesn't devalue the asset as much as you think.

The team it goes to could then flip it to someone else for more future assets, etc. Its a trade piece and a good one. 

Ben Simmons? No, the Sixers aren't trading Ben Simmons for the #2 pick. But as I said yesterday, I think the Warriors are looking to get, and can get, a fringe all-star player for a package with the #2 pick. Vucivic from Orlando, someone like that. Thats just an example, but he's a lot better than Turner. 

And if they can get him that's a better haul, but what if they can't? Do you miss the chance to get a player who can your aging stars over the top? I really don't think so. 

They need a guy that can help them win a couple more titles in the next five years, not a guy who can develop into an all star in 6 years. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by KoB2011

[dgambill]

Ok my try at the ol trade machine.

 

Boston-Myles, Holiday

Atl-Hayward, Leaf

Ind-6th pick Atl, 14th pick Bos, Romeo

Minn-Vic

Ind-#1 pick

We likely wouldn’t completely bottom out....have cap space to pick up some help and maybe make a 7-8 seed but could rebuild for the future.

I hate this draft but it is what it is. Rumors are Charlotte wants to move up to 1 for Wiseman. I’d go for that. Can we turn that into a future first rd pick? I think so. Did I say I hate this draft? Ok

So here is our three picks.

#3 Killian Hayes PG

#6 Obi Toppen PF/C

#14 Isaac Okoro SF/PF

Edited October 30, 2020 by dgambill

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Ok my try at the ol trade machine.

 

Boston-Myles, Holiday

Atl-Hayward, Leaf

Ind-6th pick Atl, 14th pick Bos, Romeo

Minn-Vic

Ind-#1 pick

We likely wouldn’t completely bottom out....have cap space to pick up some help and maybe make a 7-8 seed but could rebuild for the future.

I hate this draft but it is what it is. Rumors are Charlotte wants to move up to 1 for Wiseman. I’d go for that. Can we turn that into a future first rd pick? I think so. Did I say I hate this draft? Ok

So here is our three picks.

#3 Killian Hayes PG

#6 Obi Toppen

#14 Isaac Okoro

Don't like it for the Pacers because all you are getting is draft picks and romeo and giving up 4 players from the roster.  Also no way the owner would go for a total rebuild.  We would have 3 starters back and Lamb but he is is injured.

[dgambill]

Just now, IU Scott said:

Don't like it for the Pacers because all you are getting is draft picks and romeo and giving up 4 players from the roster.  Also no way the owner would go for a total rebuild.  We would have 3 starters back and Lamb but he is is injured.

Yes but you free up a ton of cap space. You will fill in with serviceable vets. Hayes can be a dynamic pg that would move Brogdon over and Toppin can play center if you go small but also the 4 some against the right matchups. I think Okoro brings that bulldog on defense Pacers are known for. I agree the Pacers won’t do it because well they don’t do this stuff but with the cap space they can make a run at Hayward next offseason. 
 

Minnesota gets their third star and makes the playoffs(they are desperate). Boston gets a 5 that can space and defend the rim. Atlanta gets a great floor spacer and facilitator that can score and cap flexibility next offseason. Win win win.

[IU Scott]

12 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Yes but you free up a ton of cap space. You will fill in with serviceable vets. Hayes can be a dynamic pg that would move Brogdon over and Toppin can play center if you go small but also the 4 some against the right matchups. I think Okoro brings that bulldog on defense Pacers are known for. I agree the Pacers won’t do it because well they don’t do this stuff but with the cap space they can make a run at Hayward next offseason. 
 

Minnesota gets their third star and makes the playoffs(they are desperate). Boston gets a 5 that can space and defend the rim. Atlanta gets a great floor spacer and facilitator that can score and cap flexibility next offseason. Win win win.

The only thing is that top free agents are not going to Indy so having cap sace is not a huge deal.    Also picking that guy at 3 is a little to high if you asked me.  I like Toppen but I don't think Okoro will be much more than a servicable NBA player.

[NotIThatLives]

When in the last say 25 years have the pacers tanked?  I give it a zero% chance the Pacers trade the 2 guys that they have marketed as the faces of the franchise over the last 2-3 years will be traded for 2 or 3 draft picks.  Come on. 

The only way the pacers trade Vic is if he has honestly told them he's going to explore free agency.  It's a gamble for both of them.  Vic has not shown anything close to all star form and sounds like he wants a monster deal.  He may have a career outside of basketball on his mind?  Who knows.  

[KoB2011]

56 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Ok my try at the ol trade machine.

 

Boston-Myles, Holiday

Atl-Hayward, Leaf

Ind-6th pick Atl, 14th pick Bos, Romeo

Minn-Vic

Ind-#1 pick

We likely wouldn’t completely bottom out....have cap space to pick up some help and maybe make a 7-8 seed but could rebuild for the future.

I hate this draft but it is what it is. Rumors are Charlotte wants to move up to 1 for Wiseman. I’d go for that. Can we turn that into a future first rd pick? I think so. Did I say I hate this draft? Ok

So here is our three picks.

#3 Killian Hayes PG

#6 Obi Toppen PF/C

#14 Isaac Okoro SF/PF

As much as I was with you guys on Turner being a key piece in a trade to the Dubs... Big no to this. 

Also don't think Obi or Okoro drop to either of those spots.