KoB2011

I guess I've never really discussed what he's done, it isn't relevant to what he is now in my mind. Can you explain why it is? There's stats that show him out of the top 20 all together. @5fouls posted them on 247 and you got very upset IIRC. One of them is PER. Again, this should be simple, rank the NBA players. Stop when you get to PG so we can have an actual discussion and not a strawman. You say he is a clear top 10 guy and elite but consistently refuse to give us a comparison to prove that out. If you can't simply say the guys PG is better than then I'll assume it's because you know he isn't better than as many guys as you'd like for us to believe.

I think the biggest problem with the conversation is you to believe what he did the two years before the injury are relevant to the player he is today. Besides that being a long time ago, it was a major injury ago. Who cares of John Wall or KAT don't have better numbers in 2013? Both are better now. I actually just named a list of players a few days ago I'd put in front of PG and a list of players he'd fall somewhere in. You didn't respond to that and you continue to refuse to give a list so you can argue straw men. If you want a real discussion, tell us your top 10 so we can see who you are leaving out in favor of PG and have a real discussion. That seems incredibly simple so why hasn't it happened?

Spot on. The team fell off WITH Paul George on the team for two more seasons. Especially last year, many thought they'd compete for a top 4 seed and they flopped. The reason David West wanted out wasn't Larry Bird, it's who was left on the team.

Essentially, you're saying that those two PG teams are better than a lot of the 90's teams just because the 90's teams had a much tougher road. That's not how I evaluate how good a team is personally, but you do you man.

I don't think it's bashing to point out that the Eastern Conference was really, really bad during those years. I don't think it's unfair to point out the division was the worst in the NBA, sans the Pacers, during those years. Could PG have risen to the occasion if he'd had a real chance? Maybe, probably, but we don't know. Andrew Luck has won 3 division titles and made an AFC championship game, I don't think he's accomplished much either. If you can't look at the road someone has to take to do that and factor it in to the level of accomplishment I'm not sure we are having the same discussion.

Sure, there are some bad voices in Indy media. There are also some good, plugged into the Pacers voices that felt that way too. PG has some very obvious talent. I'd argue all day that his talent far exceeds what you actually get, so yes he has intangibles. That said, the fact that he has never hit a game winner says something. I'm going to throw my BS flag on him being on some of the best Pacers teams ever. Those couple years were very good, but they weren't anything stand out from what we had in the 90's and until the fight in the 2000's. They weren't better than the 70's. They just happened to be in a very weak conference. Not trying to bash PG, but when was he ever the reason the Pacers won anything in the playoffs?

That's a fair response. I'm not sure I've seen anyone say PG is out of the top 20 though, so maybe the hate isn't all that hateful?

I don't really care if you hate on the Pacers or not. Here are facts I think we can all agree to: You have a real disdain for Larry Bird and color your Pacers opinion based on thinking everything he did was bad. You group Paul George in a category very few would (nationally, locally and anywhere inbetween) with elite players. He's top 20, maybe top 15 but not elite like a clear top ten guy such as Curry, Leonard, Durant, James, Harden, Westbrook or Davis. Paul George is no longer on the Pacers and you think that loss is on par with one of those other guys changing teams. From my perspective, the combination of this team largely being a result of Larry Bird and Paul George leaving does color your perspective on the Pacers quite a bit. Is it possible Victor Oladipo, who coming out of college would've universally been considered the better prospect between he and PG, is closer to PG than you are willing to admit? And that whatever difference there is in the talent is made up for by their attitude? We can even say PG had a terrible attitude that impacted the team 100% because of Bird, but that doesn't change what it was and it doesn't change the Vic absolutely loves being here and being a key part of this team. I know you think I'm biased against PG, but I'm the one who ranks him right about where he is considered by most experts and you're the one who has him among the elite group of players that are annual MVP candidates. I get it, we're talking about maybe your favorite guy in the NBA and your least favorite guy, that makes it hard to take emotion out of it.

I'm sure you're being hyperbolic, but it isn't 10 times. Parker is the worst of those four at this point in his career. Turner is an All-Star level player this year. Robinson is a very nice piece. Leonard is the best, clearly, but let's not act like the Pacers aren't missing two starters.

This is true, might have even been 0-16. But, he did other clutch things, just not that late in the game.

It wasn't really a comeback win at all. The Pacers led at the conclusion of all four quarters. It was more like the Pacers controlled a close game throughout against a very good team. I'll concede it looked like that close game may get away from them in the fourth, might have with last years team, but this years team dug in and fought. Glad we can agree this team has more fortitude than last years.

The East is not good, that's why the Cavs shouldn't be too worried about making the Finals. Boston was a real threat, IMO, before the injury. Now it just doesn't seem likely anyone is ready to challenge LeBron.

Damontis Sabonis also with a huge game. Pacers have some really nice young pieces.

Huge second half from Vic to lead the Pacers over the Spurs. Adding a potential All-Star in Turner to this group could really have them in the middle of it in the East. They won't be as good as Cleveland, Milwaukee or Washington, but beyond that? No one sticks out as out of their reach if Vic keeps playing this level and Turner is a 20/10/3 guy.

I'm not sure how growing up in Indiana impacts where you get your news today? You often reference listening to national radio shows, have never seen you mention listening to Grady and Big Joe, Dakich, JMV or any other local radio shows. And yes, the past two seasons the Pacers went 3-8 in the playoffs. Maybe hardly winning a game was strong, but they haven't been competitive. You were touting PG as a playoff stud. Here's the thing, I'm not anti-PG at all. I think he's a top 15-20 player. That seems pretty in line with where most NBA guys have him. You saying he's a clear top 10 guy, aka an elite guy, seems to be the one letting your feelings about him impact your argument. Either way, I'm out on the PG talk as well. Here's to a great Pacers (and Hoosiers) season!

He never carried the Pacers though. He had three other borderline All-Stars in a weak East and lost to the first good team he played. Then when he had a chance to carry them, they got dominated back to back years. Spare me what his numbers where or that the games were close, that's Purdue stuff. We got knocked out with no resistance the two years he had a chance to carry us and last year only even made it because of Lance. You can't lose every game you play and dominant a series.

For what it's worth, people in Indianapolis we're almost universally ready for PG to move on. Especially those that follow the Pacers closely. It seems like you get most of your NBA news from national media that rarely covers the Pacers, yeah? Check out what ALL the local guys that cover them daily thought. Check out what other fans thought. Most the Indy folks on this board pretty much come down on the same side of the PG issue.

They were also still missing Turner. Turner could very well be a legit 20/10/3 guy this year, so that's a big loss. He and Vic should thrive getting to be the main guys. Vic certainly is thriving so far. There is a reason Vic was the second pick of the draft and a NPOTY - he doesn't lack for any physical tools. There's no reason he can't be a top 2 or 3 shooting guard in the NBA.

It's like he was the #2 pick and in a good situation for him for the first time as a pro or something....

Guys unequivocally better than PG: LeBron Leonard Durant Curry Davis Greek Freak Towns Harden Westbrook Guys mostly accepted as better than PG at this point: Wall Thompson Butler Paul Guys that a case could be made either way: Draymond Lillard Kyrie IT Beal Porzingis Love Griffin Gobert Jokic So you have 9 guys that you can't really argue with, and 4 more that you'd have a really hard time making a case. He's in that next group. Still a REALLY good player, but he isn't elite like he was/could've been. Your BIAS of your fandom from when he was a top 5 player gets the best of you my friend.

What he did pre-injury is irrelevant. He isn't that same player anymore. Is what Wade did five years ago relevant to a discussion of how good he is today? You keep talking about how great he was in the two first round exits. Do you understand that LeBron had arguably the greatest single series any player has had with Paul George guarding him? That doesn't equate to good defense. Do you really think steals is relevant to being a good defender? I guess it makes sense why that you would since you didn't think Crean was a bad defensive coach. Turnovers and deflections are great, but the goal of defense is to not let guys score. Then you quote points per game, is this 1982? You're using stats that are SO OUTDATED as metrics to show your point. The sad thing is, you proved you know what advanced stats are because you quoted the only one that favors PG. PER is probably the entry level of advanced stats, how was that last year?

If if PG is a borderline top 10 guy, the difference between that and clear top ten guys is MASSIVE. Like you said, the clear top ten guys are absolute killers. Maybe PG would've gotten there without the injury, but it happened. I don't understand why his pre-injury accomplishments are even included in a discussion of where he ranks today. In two seasons since the injury, his defense dropped off and his team underachieved. His scoring instead due to volume only. That's not what elite players do.

If you really think PG is top ten, babe your top ten do we can see who you're leaving out. I think I can make a better case he isn't top five at his position than you can he is top ten in the league.

You can't call me biased and say PG of clearly a top ten player. Like you've said, we've gone over stats and expert lists many times; they don't show a top ten player.