BGleas

That's you putting your seemingly hatred for Ainge spin on it. "Nuclear" is your word to frame it negatively so the Pacers are absolved of any responsibility. If the Pacers were unwilling to negotiate beyond the initial offer and ante up for Hayward, then that is squarely on them. If they said "take it or leave it" on the Turner/McDermott offer, then that is squarely on them. You can't make Danny Ainge, the Celtics ownership and Brad Stevens want Myles Turner and Doug McDermott just because that's what you want. You can say the Celtics are the losers, but it's not everyday that Indiana actually gets a free agent of Hayward's caliber that wants to go there and it seems they refused to negotiate.

Not necessarily. Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't huge fans of Turner and also didn't want McDermott, so that offer wasn't too attractive for them? I don't know that, but just bringing up a possible scenario. Turner is an athletic young player who brings some really good things (good athlete, weakside defender and shotblocker, with some range), but at the same time he regressed last season, is not a good PnR defender and shoots 3's at volume for a big. Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't as high on Turner as others, so thought if we're going to do this then we need more. That is a completely reasonable position to take. The Celtics have Daniel Theis who is a great PnR defender, not as dynamic a shot blocker as Turner and has the same struggles defending the larger bigs, but maybe Ainge thought we have a similar guy in Theis, Robert Williams is developing well and brings that long, athletic shot blocking that Turner would have, and then we can go get Aaron Baynes as another big. For the Celtics side, it comes down to what they valued and it reads to me that they weren't ever as high on Turner as some others wanted them to be.

Yeah, you don't know that at all. You really think Hayward was going to give Indiana a $20M hometown discount? I understand if you're upset that Indiana missed out on Hayward, he would have been a big pickup for them, but to lay the blame all on Ainge is ridiculous.

Not really. I've been pretty balanced in this discussion. Mentioning numerous times that all parties had leverage and weaknesses, that all parties should look out for their own best interest, etc., etc. I mentioned numerous times that Indiana should not give up Warren or Oladipo along with Turner, but that there is a meet in the middle point. If Indiana was hellbent on only including McDermott along with Turner and nothing else, and not giving Hayward what Charlotte offerend, then that is on them. You seem to have a deep dislike for Ainge and have wanted to bash him the entire time. The Celtics were never going to pay Hayward north of $100M and apparently the Pacers weren't willing to go to $120M. Smart moves by both franchises in my opinion. Ainge's responsibility is to the Boston Celtics, not to Gordon Hayward or the Indiana Pacers. If Ainge doesn't want Doug McDermott he should negotiate for something else, as it seems that is what he did. In the meantime Hayward went out and got a better deal.

Or he was disrespected that Indiana wouldn't poney up 4/120 so he shifted to Charlotte? We can both make assumptions, but you seem to really, really want this to be pinned on Ainge when it's looking like that probably wasn't the case. Charlotte was always listed as one of the suitors if Hayward opted out, and has been interested in him for years. They even signed him several years ago, but Utah matched.

Agree, would have been crazy for the Pacers to do that. Same reason the Celtics let him walk (though they may s&t with Charlotte). Bottom line here is, Hayward went for the pay day over winning and over going home.

Agree. Its the same reason the Celtics let him walk. Would have been stupid to pay that for him.

Doesn't seem like it was about giving in to Boston, seems like it was more about getting outbid by Charlotte (not suggesting Indy should have matched Charlotte'sbid, but that seems to be what happened here).

Also, maybe it wasn't the Celtics that "botched" this, maybe Indiana wouldn't ante up to Hayward at the level that Charlotte did? Charlotte just gave Hayward $120 million over 4 years, Indiana would have had to at least match that. The Celtics may have just been waiting to see who Hayward chose to see who the sign and trade would be with.

Charlotte doesn't currently have the cap space for the deal they've agreed to. So they're going to have to make some moves to clear space or do a sign and trade. Ainge looks fine. If he didn't like the deal, then he shouldn't have done it, so he didn't. What about Indiana? It's not like high level free agents typically want to go to the Pacers and they had one fall in their lap and wouldn't ante up. Hayward would have be the teams #1 or #2 offensive option depending on Oladipo's recovery and return to form. You just lost the chance at a 17-20ppg play-making forward who shoots over 50% from 2 and 38% from 3 and is an above average defender. Those guys don't grow on trees, especially for small market teams. The Celtics passed up on a young big who regressed last season and a journeyman shooter who's a minus defensively.

The Celtics will be fine. We'll resign Tatum to a long-term max deal and potentially bring Aaron Baynes back. I like our draft and I'm excited about Robert Williams development. I'm good with that. I also wouldn't be surprised if Boston and Charlotte work out a sign and trade. Is Boston a title team? Probably not, but if Kemba is healthy, Tatum and Brown keep making leaps, and Danny can fill out the roster with a guy like Baynes, then we're certainly in the Eastern Conference title hunt.

Yeah, the job isn't done yet, but most franchises would kill to have acquired those players. It's not always going to work out, but I'd rather have a GM that takes calculated chances and swings for the fences. It's not always going to work out. What Boston has done to retool post-Big 3 is incredibly impressive. Depth is absolutely an issue, it hurt them in the playoffs in the bubble, which is another reason to not just settle in the Hayward deal.

On Danny's success, I don't think that's really fair. Of course getting to the Finals and winning titles is the ultimate goal, but he retooled an aging Big 3 team and had the Celtics back in the ECF in 4 years and has since been to 3 of the last 4 conference Finals, including taking LeBron's Cavs 7 games in the ECF with a team missing both Kyrie and Hayward. Since the Big 3 and Doc Rivers left, he's turned that into luring Brad Stevens from Butler and drafting, trading for or signing Al Horford, Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Gordon Hayward, and Kyrie (which eventually turned into Kemba). Most teams in the NBA would kill to have been in 3 of the last 4 ECF's, while having pulled off a masterful rebuild in short order. Do they need to get over the hump? Absolutely, and that's partly why Ainge doesn't want to settle for Doug McDermott, his job is to get this team to the Finals and win a title so he's pushing hard. That's his job. As far as remaining free agency, the Celtics need to either trade Hayward or re-sign him to a big money, short deal. Then if they re-sign him, Aaron Baynes has interest in returning and then finally re-sign Tatum to a max deal. I'd love to see Boston and Indiana work something out, but I'd be just as fine with re-signing Hayward and bringing Baynes back. To be honest, I like Hayward so I would almost prefer that.

Ainge's nickname is literally "Trader Danny" because he makes so many trades. He just yesterday completed a complicated 3-team trade with the Grizzlies and Blazers. He's done deals in the past for Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, Kyrie Irving, Isiah Thomas, Kemba Walker, etc., etc. He's made trades with nearly every team in the NBA, even blockbuster deals with teams in his own division. I also think its a misconception that somehow Turner and McDermott is the "fair" deal and Boston should just take it when they're clearly dealing the best player. Ainge's track record is much more accomplished than Pritchard's.

Nobody is being a problem. Danny Ainge is doing his job, which is to get the Celtics the best deal he can. Sorry is Ainge isn't just doing what the Pacers want. The Celtics have paid Gordon Hayward a ton of money, and while not Hayward's fault, haven't really gotten the return on that investment, so now that he's healthy they want to maximize it. Maybe the Pacers should act like that more often and they wouldn't be stuck in mediocrity all the time.

We basically never get the full story. At some point it was brought up that Hayward could sign a shorter, smaller deal to make it work with a team. It might be somewhat unlikely, but if the Celtics and Pacers can't work it out and other suitors dry up, I could see Hayward going back to Boston on one of those near max two-year deals where he has a player option for next season to opt out and test it again. He's a pro and would suck it up and play his best for the Celtics and Boston would definitely take having him. It would get him his desired annual number while letting him out after one season. That's the one option where I could see him doing a short deal.

Depends on how badly the Pacers want Hayward, and we don't know the answer to that. I would think right now it's bad enough to be at least engaging with the Celtics. As I've said numerous times, all three parties have some leverage and three have some weakness. The Celtics leverage lies in the fact that Indiana wants Hayward, Hayward wants Indiana and its very clean for the Pacers in terms of the fit with moving Turner as well. The Pacers leverage lies in the fact that even if they want Hayward badly, they can still always walk away. Again, I'm sure they'll get this done. It's all part of the negotiating.

Yes and no. Depends how bad Hayward wants Indy and Indy wants Hayward. The suitors for Hayward to leave at the money he wants without a sign and trade are drying up. That gives Boston some leverage, but it also gives Indiana leverage because the sign and trade partners will be drying up as well. For Indy you can hold out and let the market dry so Boston has to get this done, but thay could also sour Hayward's feelings toward Indiana if they make him wait. Like I've said all along, all three parties have some leverage and some weakness here. I'm sure they'll meet in the middle and this thing will get done somehow.

Fun discussion all! At the end of the day, as I've said, I think this thing gets done. The Celtics aren't getting Oladipo or Warren. Ainge may get Indiana to sweeten the pot a bit, but I'd also agree that chance lessens the longer this goes on and other suitors for Hayward fill their rosters. We'll see.

I mean, he's obviously not an elite, elite guy, but again he averaged 17, 7 and 4 as the 4th option on his team while shooting 55% from 2-point range and 54% from 2-pt range, and he's a plus defender. He's pretty damn good.

True, teams can maneuver to get cap space, but this isn't a typically off season, that will be a little more difficult this go around. Training camp starts soon. I've said all along the Celtics and Pacers will figure this out, but with that said Ainge isn't just going to give Hayward up without at least trying to get as much as he can. That's how these things work. Also, sometimes its not even Ainge. Ainge gets all the credit for that Brooklyn deal, but Ainge had just about agreed to a lesser deal and the Celtics owner made him call Brooklyn back and demand that 3rd first round pick.

Other teams have space, but not for what Hayward seems to have been indicated he'll get. We'll see, these things can change fast.

So basically the Knicks.

He missed his flight to Boston after getting drafted and then also was late or something to his first practice. He's been good on that front ever since. C's fans love him.

The Pacers would have to take back close to matching salaries in any Turner trade, unless they can find a team with a big trade exception thats also in the market for Turner. It would be very, very for tricky for the Pacers are making the moves to get under the cap in order to sign Hayward outright.