BGleas

I agree. I don't love the Sabonis/Turner fit, but at the same time the Pacers never got a chance to see their full compliment last year. I'd give this coach a chance to have a healthy Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis and Turner and see how he does with it. That's a solid 5 and either it works or maybe you can drive up value for Oladipo and Turner.

Brown is significantly better than OG, it's not even remotely close. Brown also completely outplayed Siakim in their playoff series. On the Heat, I'm saying I need to see them play like that outside of the bubble. I believe they were the 5 seed in the East, and then they got hot in the bubble. We've seen what Tatum, Brown, etc. can do during a normal season.

But I mean, we were already better than Toronto without Hayward and they've lost key guys too and haven't brought in anybody new? When Boston plays Toronto we have the best player on the floor and if Jaylen Brown continues developing and Lowery ages, you can argue the two best players (I say this because Siakim completely disappeared in the playoffs). Tatum and Brown fit great together. I'll give you Kemba, when healthy he's a really good fit offensively and in the locker room, but he's a negative defensively. Boston needs to add interior depth, PG depth and scoring off the bench.

Yes it will. I don't think I said anything there that is all that homerish? We beat Toronto in the playoffs without Hayward (he was injured) and Toronto lost Gasol and is losing Ibaka. How have they gotten any better? Boston has the best player on the floor between those two teams and still has Brown, Kemba and Smart. Milwaukee is a question mark and has the chance to implode a bit if Giannis gets unhappy. Miami is really good obviously and I'd expect them to improve, but again I also think the bubble helped them. We'll see.

I'm not ready to say that yet. Let's see what other moves Boston makes. They still have the MLE and can bring in one player with that or split it for two guys. This is not me saying losing Hayward for nothing was good. Not saying that, but the moves and deals aren't over yet. People thought Boston was going to take a step back last year after losing Horford and Kyrie and they were much better. I don't see how we're worse than Toronto? We beat Toronto in the playoffs without Hayward and Toronto lost Gasol and looks like they're going to lose Ibaka. Milwaukee is a question mark too. They gave up a lot for Jrue Holiday and then the Bogdanovich deal fell through. Even Miami I'm not sure about. I said all during the bubble that I felt they benefited the more than any other team from not having fans. They have one star and then role players and role players are impacted by home/road the most. I'm not saying Boston is the favorite or anything, but lots of those teams have question marks, and Boston was always going to be about Tatum, Brown, Kemba and Smart and what goes around them. Tatum looks like a legit superstar and Brown looks like an All-Star. Boston will be competitive, but Ainge has to add some depth.

Completely agree. Indiana would have been stupid to match Charlotte's offer. The misread by everyone was how bad Hayward wanted to go to Indiana. He prefered the Pacers if they offerend the most money, but the second someone outbid them he was gone.

That's what I'm saying. We can blame Ainge, and sure he holds some of it, as do the Pacers, but the bottom line is if Hayward wanted Indiana that bad he would be in Indiana. Boston and the Pacers would have eventually figured something out, but Hayward chose the cash.

Will be interesting to see how that plays out. I agree with most that Turner/Sabonis aren't a great fit together, but I also said once Indiana got their coach that if I was them I would have sat tight and let it play out for a year.

So what do you guys think, do the Pacers stand pat or look to move Turner somewhere else?

Absolutely. I'm not going to say I love losing him for nothing, but Boston paid him over $100M for 1, 72 and 52 games.

I think most everyone except Michael Jordan agrees with you. Neither Boston nor Indiana was ever going to pay Hayward that much. That's why I think blaming Ainge for this doesn't add up.

At the end of the day, my real takeaway is that Danny Ainge doesn't really love Myles Turner, and Indiana didn't love Hayward enough to give up more. IMO that is the crux of this. Ainge doesn't feel Myles Turner is a guy they need or fits what they're doing. He wouldn't have pushed for more to the point of losing Hayward for nothing if he felt Turner was what would put them over the top. Conversely, if Indiana was in love with Hayward they would have brought more to the table. The piece we really don't know is Hayward's role. I know he wanted Indiana, but it seems to me he was more than happy to take Charlotte's extra $20M. Boston and Indiana would have gotten a deal done if they wanted too. There is pressure agents can put on teams, etc., to almost force these things to happen, but it seems to me Hayward wasn't too upset to reel in Charlotte's offer and take it.

No, they're over the cap and will max out Tatum soon. They have some exceptions, so will be able to sign some guys, but not at $30M.

That's you putting your seemingly hatred for Ainge spin on it. "Nuclear" is your word to frame it negatively so the Pacers are absolved of any responsibility. If the Pacers were unwilling to negotiate beyond the initial offer and ante up for Hayward, then that is squarely on them. If they said "take it or leave it" on the Turner/McDermott offer, then that is squarely on them. You can't make Danny Ainge, the Celtics ownership and Brad Stevens want Myles Turner and Doug McDermott just because that's what you want. You can say the Celtics are the losers, but it's not everyday that Indiana actually gets a free agent of Hayward's caliber that wants to go there and it seems they refused to negotiate.

Not necessarily. Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't huge fans of Turner and also didn't want McDermott, so that offer wasn't too attractive for them? I don't know that, but just bringing up a possible scenario. Turner is an athletic young player who brings some really good things (good athlete, weakside defender and shotblocker, with some range), but at the same time he regressed last season, is not a good PnR defender and shoots 3's at volume for a big. Maybe Ainge and Stevens aren't as high on Turner as others, so thought if we're going to do this then we need more. That is a completely reasonable position to take. The Celtics have Daniel Theis who is a great PnR defender, not as dynamic a shot blocker as Turner and has the same struggles defending the larger bigs, but maybe Ainge thought we have a similar guy in Theis, Robert Williams is developing well and brings that long, athletic shot blocking that Turner would have, and then we can go get Aaron Baynes as another big. For the Celtics side, it comes down to what they valued and it reads to me that they weren't ever as high on Turner as some others wanted them to be.

Yeah, you don't know that at all. You really think Hayward was going to give Indiana a $20M hometown discount? I understand if you're upset that Indiana missed out on Hayward, he would have been a big pickup for them, but to lay the blame all on Ainge is ridiculous.

Not really. I've been pretty balanced in this discussion. Mentioning numerous times that all parties had leverage and weaknesses, that all parties should look out for their own best interest, etc., etc. I mentioned numerous times that Indiana should not give up Warren or Oladipo along with Turner, but that there is a meet in the middle point. If Indiana was hellbent on only including McDermott along with Turner and nothing else, and not giving Hayward what Charlotte offerend, then that is on them. You seem to have a deep dislike for Ainge and have wanted to bash him the entire time. The Celtics were never going to pay Hayward north of $100M and apparently the Pacers weren't willing to go to $120M. Smart moves by both franchises in my opinion. Ainge's responsibility is to the Boston Celtics, not to Gordon Hayward or the Indiana Pacers. If Ainge doesn't want Doug McDermott he should negotiate for something else, as it seems that is what he did. In the meantime Hayward went out and got a better deal.

Or he was disrespected that Indiana wouldn't poney up 4/120 so he shifted to Charlotte? We can both make assumptions, but you seem to really, really want this to be pinned on Ainge when it's looking like that probably wasn't the case. Charlotte was always listed as one of the suitors if Hayward opted out, and has been interested in him for years. They even signed him several years ago, but Utah matched.

Agree, would have been crazy for the Pacers to do that. Same reason the Celtics let him walk (though they may s&t with Charlotte). Bottom line here is, Hayward went for the pay day over winning and over going home.

Agree. Its the same reason the Celtics let him walk. Would have been stupid to pay that for him.

Doesn't seem like it was about giving in to Boston, seems like it was more about getting outbid by Charlotte (not suggesting Indy should have matched Charlotte'sbid, but that seems to be what happened here).

Also, maybe it wasn't the Celtics that "botched" this, maybe Indiana wouldn't ante up to Hayward at the level that Charlotte did? Charlotte just gave Hayward $120 million over 4 years, Indiana would have had to at least match that. The Celtics may have just been waiting to see who Hayward chose to see who the sign and trade would be with.

Charlotte doesn't currently have the cap space for the deal they've agreed to. So they're going to have to make some moves to clear space or do a sign and trade. Ainge looks fine. If he didn't like the deal, then he shouldn't have done it, so he didn't. What about Indiana? It's not like high level free agents typically want to go to the Pacers and they had one fall in their lap and wouldn't ante up. Hayward would have be the teams #1 or #2 offensive option depending on Oladipo's recovery and return to form. You just lost the chance at a 17-20ppg play-making forward who shoots over 50% from 2 and 38% from 3 and is an above average defender. Those guys don't grow on trees, especially for small market teams. The Celtics passed up on a young big who regressed last season and a journeyman shooter who's a minus defensively.

The Celtics will be fine. We'll resign Tatum to a long-term max deal and potentially bring Aaron Baynes back. I like our draft and I'm excited about Robert Williams development. I'm good with that. I also wouldn't be surprised if Boston and Charlotte work out a sign and trade. Is Boston a title team? Probably not, but if Kemba is healthy, Tatum and Brown keep making leaps, and Danny can fill out the roster with a guy like Baynes, then we're certainly in the Eastern Conference title hunt.

Yeah, the job isn't done yet, but most franchises would kill to have acquired those players. It's not always going to work out, but I'd rather have a GM that takes calculated chances and swings for the fences. It's not always going to work out. What Boston has done to retool post-Big 3 is incredibly impressive. Depth is absolutely an issue, it hurt them in the playoffs in the bubble, which is another reason to not just settle in the Hayward deal.