IUBB 22/‘23

[rogue3542]

11 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't understand what that means. As in, we should be better than NW without 2 of our starters? We aren't. And more importantly, we played poorly. 

We are not better than NW without 2 of our top 4 players. It's not that hard to admit.  

I think there's a lot of overreacting going on recently; people saying this is the "easy" part of our schedule.

Reality doesn't agree.  Of the Big Ten teams we've played, the only one I would say we absolutely should have won given our roster on gameday was Nebraska, maybe Iowa, too, but they've turned it around lately.

NW is right up there at the top of the conference standings right now, and they've played some pretty good teams in conference - they are rolling right now.

Iowa flipped a switch mid-way through the first half against us and haven't looked back since.

Meanwhile, we are trying to regroup from a stretch that's seen 3 starters out over the course of it, and two currently out indefinitely, including, by far, our best ball pressure defender.

This rocky patch shouldn't come as a surprise.  It also shouldn't come as a surprise if the defense starts picking up in the next couple weeks as players get used to new roles, rotations, and learning the other players' tendencies in those new rotations.

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, rogue3542 said:

I think there's a lot of overreacting going on recently; people saying this is the "easy" part of our schedule.

Reality doesn't agree.  Of the Big Ten teams we've played, the only one I would say we absolutely should have won given our roster on gameday was Nebraska, maybe Iowa, too, but they've turned it around lately.

NW is right up there at the top of the conference standings right now, and they've played some pretty good teams in conference - they are rolling right now.

Iowa flipped a switch mid-way through the first half against us and haven't looked back since.

Meanwhile, we are trying to regroup from a stretch that's seen 3 starters out over the course of it, and two currently out indefinitely, including, by far, our best ball pressure defender.

This rocky patch shouldn't come as a surprise.  It also shouldn't come as a surprise if the defense starts picking up in the next couple weeks as players get used to new roles, rotations, and learning the other players' tendencies in those new rotations.

Certainly, I couldn't agree more. 

... my only complaint would be roster makeup. But, he was going to have to ask someone or multiple someones to leave to fix that, and I wasn't convinced I wanted that either. 

I am now. 

[RoadToZion]

28 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I buy that excuse against Michigan State on the road, I don't against Northwestern at home.  

On the bright side, if your meaning of "fresh air" is once again taking the approach that these games and this team isn't appointment viewing...way ahead of you there.  This wasn't supposed to be that year, but hey, it has been 20 years of this at this point so what's another?

We are basically Excuses University at this point.

Northwestern beat MSU @ MSU. Good example.............................................................................................................................................................

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

Certainly, I couldn't agree more. 

... my only complaint would be roster makeup. But, he was going to have to ask someone or multiple someones to leave to fix that, and I wasn't convinced I wanted that either. 

I am now. 

Hindsight is 20/20. I wish we'd have made room for Keion Brooks now but was fine with the fact that we didn't over the summer. 

[IUCrazy2]

15 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't understand what that means. As in, we should be better than NW without 2 of our starters? We aren't. And more importantly, we played poorly. 

We are not better than NW without 2 of our top 4 players. It's not that hard to admit.  

Yes, we should still be better than Northwestern, at home, without two of our starters.  Yeah, we weren't and that is the problem.

[btownqb]

Just now, IUCrazy2 said:

Yes, we should still be better than Northwestern, at home, without two of our starters.  Yeah, we weren't and that is the problem.

Why "should" we be? I don't understand. You actually think there is THAT big of a gap between IU and other B1G teams? 

[RoadToZion]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yes, we should still be better than Northwestern, at home, without two of our starters.  Yeah, we weren't and that is the problem.

Why????????????????????? Please explain with details. 

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Hindsight is 20/20. I wish we'd have made room for Keion Brooks now but was fine with the fact that we didn't over the summer. 

I actually would have preferred (if possible)... someone like Tyreke Key, but... certainly wouldn't have been upset with Brooks. 

[KoB2011]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I actually would have preferred (if possible)... someone like Tyreke Key, but... certainly wouldn't have been upset with Brooks. 

Both would have been great in our current situation. We need the guard depth and we need a stretch 4. 

[IUCrazy2]

Just now, RoadToZion said:

Why????????????????????? Please explain with details. 

I can tell you why we aren't.

We have no identity and no system we can fall back on when things get tough.  Woody preached defense last year and that appears to have all been smoke and mirrors.  You go up and down our roster and compare it to Northwestern and we probably have to go to about our 7th or 8th player before you find a guy on Northwestern who was more highly thought of coming out of high school.

Are rankings the end all and be all?  Obviously not.  However, they tend to provide a fairly accurate picture of where you are likely to be given proper coaching over the course of time.  In other words, Northwestern doesn't usually get the best guys and even with slight improvement the fact they don't is a pretty good indicator of why they have never? gone to the NCAA tournament.  On the other hand, Michigan State tends to get good players and have a good coach so they are generally consistently good.  Does that mean they will win every game against Northwestern?  No.  Is it a shock when they lose?  Generally, yes.  

Then you have programs like Maryland and Indiana.  They get the players but they don't appear to have the culture, coaching, magic joojoo, or whatever to be consistently good.  Indiana has been one of the better recruiting schools in the Big Ten throughout the entire 20 some odd years that this program has circled the toilet.

So why should Indiana be better than Northwestern at home?  We recruit better.  We throw more resources at basketball which should lead to better coaches, better players, fan support, etc.  The fact that it isn't happening is more an indictment on the just absolute sh*t way this program has been handled since before Bob Knight was fired.

We SHOULD beat Northwestern at home in basketball for the same reasons Michigan should beat Indiana at home in football most years.  Instead we are 20-16 against them since 2001-2.  So totally, based off the past two decades, we should be right where we are.  I don't base it off that though.  I base it on all the things above.  Just because we have had poor stewardship of this program for 20+ years doesn't mean we should accept that.  You look at allllllll of the advantages our basketball program has over the Northwestern program, losing two guys when the next two off the bench should be better than anyone Northwestern rolls out, shouldn't matter in anything but the margin of victory in any year that isn't the once in a blue moon anomaly. 

Btownqb, in answer to your question, no there isn't any space between us and the rest of the Big Ten.  There should be based on the things I am ranting about up above, but there isn't.  We are on the fast track to our 7th 9th place or worse conference finish in a row because apparently any adversity means to just pack it in.  You should have the pieces to win boys but you fought to the finish.  Barf.

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I can tell you why we aren't.

We have no identity and no system we can fall back on when things get tough.  Woody preached defense last year and that appears to have all been smoke and mirrors.  You go up and down our roster and compare it to Northwestern and we probably have to go to about our 7th or 8th player before you find a guy on Northwestern who was more highly thought of coming out of high school.

Are rankings the end all and be all?  Obviously not.  However, they tend to provide a fairly accurate picture of where you are likely to be given proper coaching over the course of time.  In other words, Northwestern doesn't usually get the best guys and even with slight improvement the fact they don't is a pretty good indicator of why they have never? gone to the NCAA tournament.  On the other hand, Michigan State tends to get good players and have a good coach so they are generally consistently good.  Does that mean they will win every game against Northwestern?  No.  Is it a shock when they lose?  Generally, yes.  

Then you have programs like Maryland and Indiana.  They get the players but they don't appear to have the culture, coaching, magic joojoo, or whatever to be consistently good.  Indiana has been one of the better recruiting schools in the Big Ten throughout the entire 20 some odd years that this program has circled the toilet.

So why should Indiana be better than Northwestern at home?  We recruit better.  We throw more resources at basketball which should lead to better coaches, better players, fan support, etc.  The fact that it isn't happening is more an indictment on the just absolute sh*t way this program has been handled since before Bob Knight was fired.

We SHOULD beat Northwestern at home in basketball for the same reasons Michigan should beat Indiana at home in football most years.  Instead we are 20-16 against them since 2001-2.  So totally, based off the past two decades, we should be right where we are.  I don't base it off that though.  I base it on all the things above.  Just because we have had poor stewardship of this program for 20+ years doesn't mean we should accept that.  You look at allllllll of the advantages our basketball program has over the Northwestern program, losing two guys when the next two off the bench should be better than anyone Northwestern rolls out, shouldn't matter in anything but the margin of victory in any year that isn't the once in a blue moon anomaly. 

Btownqb, in answer to your question, no there isn't any space between us and the rest of the Big Ten.  There should be based on the things I am ranting about up above, but there isn't.  We are on the fast track to our 7th 9th place or worse conference finish in a row because apparently any adversity means to just pack it in.  You should have the pieces to win boys but you fought to the finish.  Barf.

This is exactly why XJ was so important. I don't think even I grasped how much he truly did for us. I don't blame this team for past mistakes by admin, coaches, and players. This is a good basketball team and when healthy, could be damn good. We weren't going to be able to withstand an injury to JHS or XJ. Period. 

The bold is just a crazy statement to me. That is actually how you feel? 

The recruiting under Archie sucked. As did the player development. We are still feeling the ramifications of that. You've admitted how long we've sucked, so... it certainly wasn't going to be fixed quickly... especially when our starting PG and another starter is out. We are no worse than 12-3 with those two. Probably more like 13-2. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by btownqb

[RoadToZion]

9 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

losing two guys when the next two off the bench should be better than anyone Northwestern rolls out

What team in the country has this? Northwestern isn't Idaho State Community College. 

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

This is exactly why XJ was so important. I don't think even I grasped how much he truly did for us. I don't blame this team for past mistakes by admin, coaches, and players. This is a good basketball team and when healthy, could be damn good. We weren't going to be able to withstand an injury to JHS or XJ. Period. 

The bold is just a crazy statement to me. That is actually how you feel? 

Yeah man, especially in this era kids want to go to places they can play. No one was going to want to sit behind XJ and JHS at PG. We thought we had great depth down low, but an injury to Race and Malik hitting a freshman wall has changed that. I mean, we could have forced JG out I suppose, but there would have been so much backlash from that because 95% of people thought he was great for some reason until a week go. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

Yeah man, especially in this era kids want to go to places they can play. No one was going to want to sit behind XJ and JHS at PG. We thought we had great depth down low, but an injury to Race and Malik hitting a freshman wall has changed that. I mean, we could have forced JG out I suppose, but there would have been so much backlash from that because 95% of people thought he was great for some reason until a week go. 

Truly.. this is what I wanted. But I understood and respected why Woodson didn't do that. I also expected TG to play better. 

[NotIThatLives]

We had/ have roster issues before the injuries.  Race is a traditional 4 not a modern 4.  Kopp is not a modern 3 or 4.  Thankfully he can guard the 3 as well as he does but he gets owned in the post.  Trey Galloway is a great complimentary piece, to have coming off the bench for 15-20 minutes on a true top 10ish team.  Malik, to be fair, is a college 5.  And true freshman bigs usually take a year or so to get used to things but he did play better against NU so there is hope.  JG has an OG body but didn't learn simple Indiana YMCA grade school basketball and doesn't have basic instincts and understanding of positioning, that most of us had in 6th grade.  Not to mention, his ball handling still hasn't improved.  

As badly as I cried for a true start now scoring wing this off season, I never dreamed our defense would look so porous.  I truly expected top 10 all season.  Before injuries we were in the 20th range.  I almost feel bad for JG because he knows people compare him to OG but he doesn't have the processing speed.  Doesn't mean he's not a bright and capable kid.  Hopefully he can still put it together.  

One hope we have is that pure raw talent rises to the top.  JHS has already done that.  We now need Malik and Bates to follow.   Become big boys.  Now!

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

We had/ have roster issues before the injuries.  Race is a traditional 4 not a modern 4.  Kopp is not a modern 3 or 4.  Thankfully he can guard the 3 as well as he does but he gets owned in the post.  Trey Galloway is a great complimentary piece, to have coming off the bench for 15-20 minutes on a true top 10ish team.  Malik, to be fair, is a college 5.  And true freshman bigs usually take a year or so to get used to things but he did play better against NU so there is hope.  JG has an OG body but didn't learn simple Indiana YMCA grade school basketball and doesn't have basic instincts and understanding of positioning, that most of us had in 6th grade.  Not to mention, his ball handling still hasn't improved.  

As badly as I cried for a true start now scoring wing this off season, I never dreamed our defense would look so porous.  I truly expected top 10 all season.  Before injuries we were in the 20th range.  I almost feel bad for JG because he knows people compare him to OG but he doesn't have the processing speed.  Doesn't mean he's not a bright and capable kid.  Hopefully he can still put it together.  

One hope we have is that pure raw talent rises to the top.  JHS has already done that.  We now need Malik and Bates to follow.   Become big boys.  Now!

This is so true. 

I guess you can call me a Kopp apologist... but had we stayed healthy. He was going to be as "valuable" as any of them. Some nights Bates/TG could take some of his mins, but with JHS, XJ, and TJD on the court... you pair them with Kopp. 

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

This is exactly why XJ was so important. I don't think even I grasped how much he truly did for us. I don't blame this team for past mistakes by admin, coaches, and players. This is a good basketball team and when healthy, could be damn good. We weren't going to be able to withstand an injury to JHS or XJ. Period. 

The bold is just a crazy statement to me. That is actually how you feel? 

The recruiting under Archie sucked. As did the player development. We are still feeling the ramifications of that. You've admitted how long we've sucked, so... it certainly wasn't going to be fixed quickly... especially when our starting PG and another starter is out. We are no worse than 12-3 with those two. Probably more like 13-2. 

In the bold, yes, I absolutely believe that.  This program has done less with more for most of the past 20 years.  Against Northwestern, we again did less with more even without XJ and Thompson.  I get it, things get harder when you lose players but WTF are the other guys doing in practice?  Race went down and we have Top 30 freshman Malik Reneau and #105 junior Jordan Geronimo to back him.  XJ went down and we slid over top 25 freshman JHS to take his spot and then inserted top 25 sophomore Tamar Bates to take JHS's off guard spot.

Meanwhile, Rowan Brumbaugh, the #89 receuit in the 2022 class who decommitted from Northwestern was being touted as their highest rated recruit EVER before he decommitted.  Even without our injuries we started 2 top 25 (1 Fr and 1 So), 1 top 30 (Sr.), a top 100 (5th yr Sr.), and a Top 110 (Jr.).  The top 100 guy is Miller Kopp, RSCI #90 in his class, so probably about the best recruit Northwestern had ever had who made it on campus.  We had another Top 30 player on the bench in Reneau along with several more guys who are Top 100.

If losing two guys was that much of an issue against Northwestern you gotta ask why.  Are the recruiting services that far off or do we just unluckily recruit all of the misses?  Or is it more likely we have a staff (staffs) who do a poor job of either A)developing talent or B)putting together a game plan that maximizes that talent?

Losing XJ and Race against Kansas, Arizona, Purdue, Michigan State, etc.  I am totally there with the thinking of, "that was too big an obstacle to overcome..."  Against Northwestern at home?  Nope.  Sorry.

[Kdug]

I really don't understand how some think IU should still have the same expectations with the injuries we've had so far. So far we've been missing at least one of our top 4 players in all of our losses so far. The two P5 games we were fully healthy for, we won at Xavier (who looks very good right now) and vs UNC.

Every team in the country gets worse if they lose a starter. Just look at Rutgers. At the start of the year when McConnell and Mulcahy were hurt, they had a bad loss vs Temple and lost there only other P5 game at Miami. Since they've been fully healthy, they look a lot better.

Now that doesn't change the fact that IU needs to figure something out since Race and X will be out for awhile. Hopefully these last two games were growing pains and we start seeing some improvements with the new lineup.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Kdug

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

This is so true. 

I guess you can call me a Kopp apologist... but had we stayed healthy. He was going to be as "valuable" as any of them. Some nights Bates/TG could take some of his mins, but with JHS, XJ, and TJD on the court... you pair them with Kopp. 

I want to see him let it fly a lot more.  Like extend to 24ish feet, open up the lane a little more if he can sink a few and make people guard him even farther out.  He really has played within himself, not forcing things but he really is the teams best shooter so he needs to let it fly.  Defensively,  he has proven himself but the Team has to get it together.   

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

In the bold, yes, I absolutely believe that.  This program has done less with more for most of the past 20 years.  Against Northwestern, we again did less with more even without XJ and Thompson.  I get it, things get harder when you lose players but WTF are the other guys doing in practice?  Race went down and we have Top 30 freshman Malik Reneau and #105 junior Jordan Geronimo to back him.  XJ went down and we slid over top 25 freshman JHS to take his spot and then inserted top 25 sophomore Tamar Bates to take JHS's off guard spot.

Meanwhile, Rowan Brumbaugh, the #89 receuit in the 2022 class who decommitted from Northwestern was being touted as their highest rated recruit EVER before he decommitted.  Even without our injuries we started 2 top 25 (1 Fr and 1 So), 1 top 30 (Sr.), a top 100 (5th yr Sr.), and a Top 110 (Jr.).  The top 100 guy is Miller Kopp, RSCI #90 in his class, so probably about the best recruit Northwestern had ever had who made it on campus.  We had another Top 30 player on the bench in Reneau along with several more guys who are Top 100.

If losing two guys was that much of an issue against Northwestern you gotta ask why.  Are the recruiting services that far off or do we just unluckily recruit all of the misses?  Or is it more likely we have a staff (staffs) who do a poor job of either A)developing talent or B)putting together a game plan that maximizes that talent?

Losing XJ and Race against Kansas, Arizona, Purdue, Michigan State, etc.  I am totally there with the thinking of, "that was too big an obstacle to overcome..."  Against Northwestern at home?  Nope.  Sorry.

I don't understand the exercise of comparing rankings from 4-5 years ago with what is happening in present day. It's not good data to use. 

NW is 12-3 with their losses coming to Auburn by 1pt, Pitt, and Ohio St. Pretty solid resume. 

The bold isn't reality. It's what you want it to be, but that isn't the truth of it. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

I want to see him let it fly a lot more.  Like extend to 24ish feet, open up the lane a little more if he can sink a few and make people guard him even farther out.  He really has played within himself, not forcing things but he really is the teams best shooter so he needs to let it fly.  Defensively,  he has proven himself but the Team has to get it together.   

You can't extend to 24ft when you are in the corner. In general, you want to see him a little more aggressive offensively, I can buy that. I think teams do a nice job on him/without XJ it isn't nearly as difficult to guard Miller. 

[NotIThatLives]

Just now, btownqb said:

You can't extend to 24ft when you are in the corner. In general, you want to see him a little more aggressive offensively, I can buy that. I think teams do a nice job on him/without XJ it isn't nearly as difficult to guard Miller. 

That's fine, slide him in the corner once the ball drops to the post or run to the corner in transition,  if it merits it, but if he's near top of the key during g the flow of offense, I have nonproblem him hoisting a long ball once or twice a game.  

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

That's fine, slide him in the corner once the ball drops to the post or run to the corner in transition,  if it merits it, but if he's near top of the key during g the flow of offense, I have nonproblem him hoisting a long ball once or twice a game.  

No I don't either. 

I will say... I feel like when we were healthy and playing better defense, he benefited from some transition 3s, we seem to not be getting many of those. 

[NotIThatLives]

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

No I don't either. 

I will say... I feel like when we were healthy and playing better defense, he benefited from some transition 3s, we seem to not be getting many of those. 

More missing X.  

[IUCrazy2]

9 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't understand the exercise of comparing rankings from 4-5 years ago with what is happening in present day. It's not good data to use. 

NW is 12-3 with their losses coming to Auburn by 1pt, Pitt, and Ohio St. Pretty solid resume. 

The bold isn't reality. It's what you want it to be, but that isn't the truth of it. 

Comparing the ratings is like looking at an investment.  If I have $1 million to invest I expect a larger return than someone who starts with $500k.  Why?  Because I start at a better position than you do.

If you are my investment guy and you have turned my $1 million into $1.1 million and a competitor has turned his client's $500k into $1.15 million, I have questions.  If other $1 million investors 2 years ago are sitting at $1.25 million, I have questions.  If you tell me that I can't compare starting points to where we are now because that doesn't matter in the here and now, you aren't my investment manager anymore.