KoB2011 Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 25 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Fair debate there. Whether PG can be the primary player on a championship team is a question -- I think he could be, with the right players around him. He's flat out dominated in the playoffs, as the best player on the floor in various series (remember that Toronto series?). He's not LeBron, but then no one else is either. On the other hand, he may be that Pippin like player -- Pippin didn't and may not have been able to lead a team to a championship, but what a player he was. On Klay, again, he's only been a #2. He certainly helped GS win a title, but he didn't "win" it, he helped. Is it fair to say no one actually leads a team to a title alone no matter how good they are? I can't really think of anytime anyone ever won a title with one elite player and a bunch of average to good players. LeBron is closer, but I think it would be a disservice to Kyrie and even Love to only call them "good." Both are very good and Kyrie is maybe elite? He certainly is an elite scorer at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Is it fair to say no one actually leads a team to a title alone no matter how good they are? I can't really think of anytime anyone ever won a title with one elite player and a bunch of average to good players. LeBron is closer, but I think it would be a disservice to Kyrie and even Love to only call them "good." Both are very good and Kyrie is maybe elite? He certainly is an elite scorer at least. I think I agree with that, although with LeBron it's awfully close. He doesn't win that last title without Kyrie's outstanding Game 7, but then wasn't that the series when he led in basically every box category? Anyway, as to PG and Klay I was talking about the "primary player," the best player who leads the team. Klay's never been that, and at best it's an assumption that he could do it. It's one thing to be the player leading the team that the other team largely keys on, it's another to be shooting next to Curry, and now also Durant. Just having those guys on the floor creates tremendous space. Could Klay have been the Man for the Pacers and gone head to head with LeBron? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: I think I agree with that, although with LeBron it's awfully close. He doesn't win that last title without Kyrie's outstanding Game 7, but then wasn't that the series when he led in basically every box category? Anyway, as to PG and Klay I was talking about the "primary player," the best player who leads the team. Klay's never been that, and at best it's an assumption that he could do it. It's one thing to be the player leading the team that the other team largely keys on, it's another to be shooting next to Curry, and now also Durant. Just having those guys on the floor creates tremendous space. Could Klay have been the Man for the Pacers and gone head to head with LeBron? I don't think so. I guess for the direct comparison I'd have to ask if Klay was the two who are we putting at the three? LeBron and Klay don't play the same position so it makes it tough, but I think Klay could shoulder a scoring load and guard the best perimeter player. Klay is a shooting guard in the purest sense of the word. He isn't a combo guard like Harden or Wade, he isn't a wing. He's like Reggie or Ray Allen. The only other guy in the league you could really make that comparison for is Beal; that makes it really tough to compare who is better. I'll say this, I'm not convinced Klay is better than PG, I'm just not convinced he is not. They do different things and serve different roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I'll say this, I'm not convinced Klay is better than PG, I'm just not convinced he is not. They do different things and serve different roles. This was my point. I wasn't meaning to say Klay is better than PG, I meant they're comparable players (not position/skill wise, but in terms of their ranking in the league/overall talent). Klay is one of those guys that doesn't get a ton of pub because of Curry and now also Durant, and because Green is so outspoken, but he's hugely respected as a top talent in the league. Before trading him to Cleveland, Minny wanted to trade Love to G.S for him but G.S turned it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, KoB2011 said: I guess for the direct comparison I'd have to ask if Klay was the two who are we putting at the three? LeBron and Klay don't play the same position so it makes it tough, but I think Klay could shoulder a scoring load and guard the best perimeter player. Klay is a shooting guard in the purest sense of the word. He isn't a combo guard like Harden or Wade, he isn't a wing. He's like Reggie or Ray Allen. The only other guy in the league you could really make that comparison for is Beal; that makes it really tough to compare who is better. I'll say this, I'm not convinced Klay is better than PG, I'm just not convinced he is not. They do different things and serve different roles. Good discussion. And yes, no doubt Klay T is an exceptional 2-guard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, BGleas said: This was my point. I wasn't meaning to say Klay is better than PG, I meant they're comparable players (not position/skill wise, but in terms of their ranking in the league/overall talent). Klay is one of those guys that doesn't get a ton of pub because of Curry and now also Durant, and because Green is so outspoken, but he's hugely respected as a top talent in the league. Before trading him to Cleveland, Minny wanted to trade Love to G.S for him but G.S turned it down. And that's when Love was averaging 26 - 12 - 4. He was considered a borderline top 10 player back then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 26, 2018 Report Share Posted January 26, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 12:03 PM, BGleas said: This was my point. I wasn't meaning to say Klay is better than PG, I meant they're comparable players (not position/skill wise, but in terms of their ranking in the league/overall talent). Klay is one of those guys that doesn't get a ton of pub because of Curry and now also Durant, and because Green is so outspoken, but he's hugely respected as a top talent in the league. Before trading him to Cleveland, Minny wanted to trade Love to G.S for him but G.S turned it down. Just a quick follow up, Brooks had something to say about PG: "He is one of the best in the league," Brooks said following the Wizards' 121-112 loss to the Thunder on Thursday, according to ESPN.com's Royce Young. "Guarding anyone on the floor is what makes him, well, not an All-Star, but we all know he is. He's the best two-way player in basketball." http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2756061-scott-brooks-says-paul-george-is-best-2-way-player-in-basketball Article goes on -- Through Thursday night's win over the Wizards—the Thunder's sixth straight—George is averaging 20.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.0 assists and a league-leading 2.2 steals per game. The 27-year-old is also in the midst of shooting a career-best 41.7 percent from three. On top of that, George ranks first among all players in deflections per game (4.4) and fourth in loose balls recovered (1.7 per game). "There's a lot of players in the league that are great offensive players, but they're not great defensive players," Thunder head coach Billy Donovan said, according to the Associated Press' Cliff Brunt. "I think arguably, it would be hard to make a case either way of what end of the floor he's better on, offense or defense, because he's that special." Again fair points, but to me PG has proven what K Thompson can only be speculated to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 26, 2018 Report Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Just a quick follow up, Brooks had something to say about PG: "He is one of the best in the league," Brooks said following the Wizards' 121-112 loss to the Thunder on Thursday, according to ESPN.com's Royce Young. "Guarding anyone on the floor is what makes him, well, not an All-Star, but we all know he is. He's the best two-way player in basketball." http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2756061-scott-brooks-says-paul-george-is-best-2-way-player-in-basketball Article goes on -- Through Thursday night's win over the Wizards—the Thunder's sixth straight—George is averaging 20.9 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.0 assists and a league-leading 2.2 steals per game. The 27-year-old is also in the midst of shooting a career-best 41.7 percent from three. On top of that, George ranks first among all players in deflections per game (4.4) and fourth in loose balls recovered (1.7 per game). "There's a lot of players in the league that are great offensive players, but they're not great defensive players," Thunder head coach Billy Donovan said, according to the Associated Press' Cliff Brunt. "I think arguably, it would be hard to make a case either way of what end of the floor he's better on, offense or defense, because he's that special." Again fair points, but to me PG has proven what K Thompson can only be speculated to do. Yes, PG is a great player, and a two-way player at that. I think it's a little hyperbole to call him the best 2-way player in the league. Some of that is because Brooks was about to play OKC, so that's what you do, pump up the guy you're about to play because the media is asking, and there's a groundswell because Westbrook made him the snub-du-jour of the All-Star Game. But yes, he is a great two-way player. Other great two way players are Klay, Kawai, LeBron, Giannis, and a few more. I'm just not understanding what PG has proven that Klay hasn't? No, Klay hasn't been "the man" on a team, but PG has never proven he can be a key piece on a title team either. We have no idea if PG can come through on the biggest stage there is, Klay has. To be honest, I don't really believe what I said in the previous paragraph (about PG being able to come through in the Finals), but I think it's as silly as saying we can't say Klay is on PG's level simply because he hasn't had the chance to do it "himself". Klay is a great player and PG is a great player. Neither is leading a team to a title as "the man". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 26, 2018 Report Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 hour ago, BGleas said: Yes, PG is a great player, and a two-way player at that. I think it's a little hyperbole to call him the best 2-way player in the league. Some of that is because Brooks was about to play OKC, so that's what you do, pump up the guy you're about to play because the media is asking, and there's a groundswell because Westbrook made him the snub-du-jour of the All-Star Game. But yes, he is a great two-way player. Other great two way players are Klay, Kawai, LeBron, Giannis, and a few more. I'm just not understanding what PG has proven that Klay hasn't? No, Klay hasn't been "the man" on a team, but PG has never proven he can be a key piece on a title team either. We have no idea if PG can come through on the biggest stage there is, Klay has. To be honest, I don't really believe what I said in the previous paragraph (about PG being able to come through in the Finals), but I think it's as silly as saying we can't say Klay is on PG's level simply because he hasn't had the chance to do it "himself". Klay is a great player and PG is a great player. Neither is leading a team to a title as "the man". It was after they lost to OKC. What PG has proven that Klay hasn't? Leading a team as the number one option and franchise player on both sides of the ball. There is literally no one in the League who will call Klay T a franchise player, because he isn't and has never been. Could he be, who knows? Klay came through on the biggest stage as a secondary player, playing with the MVP, and now two of them, that's entirely different. It's kind of silly to say Klay has proved what PG hasn't, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CauseThatsMyDJ Posted January 26, 2018 Report Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said: It was after they lost to OKC. What PG has proven that Klay hasn't? Leading a team as the number one option and franchise player on both sides of the ball. There is literally no one in the League who will call Klay T a franchise player, because he isn't and has never been. Could he be, who knows? Klay came through on the biggest stage as a secondary player, playing with the MVP, and now two of them, that's entirely different. It's kind of silly to say Klay has proved what PG hasn't, isn't it? It’s very clear from the comments from Pacers that were in PGs locker room that there wasn’t much “leading” going on. He may have been the best player on the court, but he wasn’t a leader. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 27, 2018 Report Share Posted January 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: It was after they lost to OKC. What PG has proven that Klay hasn't? Leading a team as the number one option and franchise player on both sides of the ball. There is literally no one in the League who will call Klay T a franchise player, because he isn't and has never been. Could he be, who knows? Klay came through on the biggest stage as a secondary player, playing with the MVP, and now two of them, that's entirely different. It's kind of silly to say Klay has proved what PG hasn't, isn't it? It’s also kind of silly too to say PG is clearly better than Klay because he’s “led” a team and Klay hasn’t. Klay hasn’t been a franchise player, no, but teams have tried to trade their franchise players for him and Golden State always said no because they know how good he is. Kyrie had never really led a team either (I wouldn’t really count his first 3 years) but now has the Celtics leading the East. I don’t think he all of the sudden got better, he just hadn’t had the opportunity yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 27, 2018 Report Share Posted January 27, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 11:30 AM, KoB2011 said: Is it fair to say no one actually leads a team to a title alone no matter how good they are? I can't really think of anytime anyone ever won a title with one elite player and a bunch of average to good players. I remember a 6th grade girls team a few years back that had a 6'1 girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 27, 2018 Report Share Posted January 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I remember a 6th grade girls team a few years back that had a 6'1 girl. That's not a nice way to talk about @bluegrassIU. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 27, 2018 Report Share Posted January 27, 2018 16 hours ago, BGleas said: It’s also kind of silly too to say PG is clearly better than Klay because he’s “led” a team and Klay hasn’t. Klay hasn’t been a franchise player, no, but teams have tried to trade their franchise players for him and Golden State always said no because they know how good he is. Kyrie had never really led a team either (I wouldn’t really count his first 3 years) but now has the Celtics leading the East. I don’t think he all of the sudden got better, he just hadn’t had the opportunity yet. I think you took me a little too seriously, that was tongue in cheek. K Thompson is clearly an outstanding player, any team would love to have him. Outside of kidding around, I'm just saying you can think Thompson can do what PG has done, but that's still speculation, as he's only been a second man, never a first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 27, 2018 Report Share Posted January 27, 2018 19 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said: It’s very clear from the comments from Pacers that were in PGs locker room that there wasn’t much “leading” going on. He may have been the best player on the court, but he wasn’t a leader. Could be -- but then also can't look at those comments in a vacuum. He was all about the Pacers, then Bird traded away and lost literally every single teammate he had, and ultimately brought in Teague, among others, at best, a mistake. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute, how much love do you have for a team that trades away (or loses, in the case of West, due to Bird's idiotic treatment of Hibbert) every one of your teammates, and "builds" a worse team? Pritchard has been doing great - now that Bird is gone. I don't really know if PG is capable of being a good leader, he may not be, but when making judgments, it's good to consider the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 Paul George replacing D Cousin on team LeBron, All Star Game. https://sportsnaut.com/2018/01/paul-george-replacing-demarcus-cousins-nba-star-game/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CauseThatsMyDJ Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 All-Star* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 minute ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said: All-Star* It's too bad you can't face reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CauseThatsMyDJ Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: It's too bad you can't face reality That he’s an “all-star”? That’s reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoHoosier Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: It's too bad you can't face reality I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 minute ago, PoHoosier said: I reject your reality and substitute it with my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CauseThatsMyDJ Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 Peak pacers. Spotted Vogel an entire half. Still sent him home with an L. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 3rd time this year that the Pacers came back from a 20 points down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 So, will Russ favor PG13 and freeze Vic out at the ASG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted January 28, 2018 Report Share Posted January 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, 5fouls said: So, will Russ favor PG13 and freeze Vic out at the ASG? I predict Westbrook takes 70 shots and doesn't look at either of them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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