NBA Thread

[IU Scott]

26 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Are we talking about the play with about a minute left when Horford blocked Bogdonovic? That wasn’t a foul.

Yes it was if you watched the lower body because on the drive he had his arm in the back of Bojon.  It was a clean block on top but he body him all the way to the basket.  When Kyrie does that it is called a foul every time.   One time when Turner got switched on to Kyrie Turner moved his feet great and Kyrie went into Turner and actually grabbed turner leg but Turner was called for the foul.

[BGleas]

12 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Yes it was if you watched the lower body because on the drive he had his arm in the back of Bojon.  It was a clean block on top but he body him all the way to the basket.  When Kyrie does that it is called a foul every time.   One time when Turner got switched on to Kyrie Turner moved his feet great and Kyrie went into Turner and actually grabbed turner leg but Turner was called for the foul.

Agree to disagree, it wasn't a foul, and you're definitely not getting that call in an NBA playoff game. The bottom line is Kyrie, and Tatum especially down the stretch, were phenomenal, and the Pacers fell apart down the stretch. It happens with a team playing on the road in the playoffs, especially without their best player. 

I'd expect the Pacers to probably win two in Indiana.  

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Agree to disagree, it wasn't a foul, and you're definitely not getting that call in an NBA playoff game. The bottom line is Kyrie, and Tatum especially down the stretch, were phenomenal, and the Pacers fell apart down the stretch. It happens with a team playing on the road in the playoffs, especially without their best player. 

I'd expect the Pacers to probably win two in Indiana.  

Actually I saw this same thing on at least 4 drives by the Pacers in the 4th quarter.  To me the officials started swallowing their whistles in the 4th quarters and stopped calling things they called in the first 3 quarters.  Like I said this kind of thing is part of the reason I have really soured on the NBA the last 20 or so years.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Actually I saw this same thing on at least 4 drives by the Pacers in the 4th quarter.  To me the officials started swallowing their whistles in the 4th quarters and stopped calling things they called in the first 3 quarters.  Like I said this kind of thing is part of the reason I have really soured on the NBA the last 20 or so years.

Again, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, as I don't think they swallowed their whistles. It wasn't a foul, that's why they didn't call it. The Pacers just went away from what got them there and made several boneheaded plays down the stretch which is why they lost, not because of the refs. 

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Again, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree, as I don't think they swallowed their whistles. It wasn't a foul, that's why they didn't call it. The Pacers just went away from what got them there and made several boneheaded plays down the stretch which is why they lost, not because of the refs. 

Agree to disagree because I have seen the Pacers get screwed for years in the  playoffs

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Agree to disagree because I have seen the Pacers get screwed for years in the  playoffs

Stop it. There's not some NBA conspiracy against the Pacers. 

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Stop it. There's not some NBA conspiracy against the Pacers. 

Disagree but it is more on who they want to win and they want the stars and the big market teams to play in the playoffs.  I remember getting hosed in game 5 at Boston in the early 90's.  The rigged lottery system for the Knicks to get Ewing over the Pacers.  The bogus 4 point play for Larry Johnson and the Knicks against the Pacers.  The Ewing 4 step walk all the way to the basket to win a game in the playoffs.  The bulls getting every call in the 4th quarter after the Pacers took a double digit lead late in the 3rd quarter of game 7.

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ Not really weighing in here,  NOT saying there's some evil, nefarious, underhanded conspiracy against the P's (or any other team), but in fairness I don't think anyone can, with a genuinely straight face, say the refs/league have not favored the big market teams, for many years. It's just the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, let's not forget that the P's were the "Beast of the East" for years with Reggie, who they drafted towards the end of the lottery, and then with PG, around both of whom they they built great teams. Without going back and looking, the P's were at one point in 6 of 7 straight EC finals appearances. They played for the championship against the Kobe/Shaq team. They competed well against the LeBron/Wade Miami teams, in the EC finals. They absolutely should have gone to the Finals but for Artests's moronically induced Brawl in the Palace -- that team was a Finals team, hands down. 

And now we have the Bucks with the best record in the League. They've been building that team around Giannis, who many teams overlooked. The Bucks are loaded for the future. 

So yeah the refs often seem to call things for the big market team/franchise players, and the league absolutely appears to help out the big guys, because that's where the money is, but if you look at the NBA now, objectively, there are some damn good small market teams and they have bright futures. 

Aside, that 4-point play had me jumping up and down yelling like a wild man at the tv. Lol

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

^^ Not really weighing in here,  NOT saying there's some evil, nefarious, underhanded conspiracy against the P's (or any other team), but in fairness I don't think anyone can, with a genuinely straight face, say the refs/league have not favored the big market teams, for many years. It's just the nature of the beast.

On the other hand, let's not forget that the P's were the "Beast of the East" for years with Reggie, who they drafted towards the end of the lottery, and then with PG, around both of whom they they built great teams. Without going back and looking, the P's were at one point in 6 of 7 straight EC finals appearances. They played for the championship against the Kobe/Shaq team. They competed well against the LeBron/Wade Miami teams, in the EC finals. They absolutely should have gone to the Finals but for Artests's moronically induced Brawl in the Palace -- that team was a Finals team, hands down. 

And now we have the Bucks with the best record in the League. They've been building that team around Giannis, who many teams overlooked. The Bucks are loaded for the future. 

So yeah the refs often seem to call things for the big market team/franchise players, and the league absolutely appears to help out the big guys, because that's where the money is, but if you look at the NBA now, objectively, there are some damn good small market teams and they have bright futures. 

Aside, that 4-point play had me jumping up and down yelling like a wild man at the tv. Lol

I said big markets or stars and Milwaukee has a huge star in Gannis.  I don't think the Pacers made 6 or 7 straight EC finals but they have been to many over a 20 year period.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, IU Scott said:

I said big markets or stars and Milwaukee has a huge star in Gannis.  I don't think the Pacers made 6 or 7 straight EC finals but they have been to many over a 20 year period.

I would have to go back and look, but my recollection is that at one point, late 90's or into early 2000's, they had been in 6 of the past 7 EC finals. They were the Beast of the East. I kind of think you're quibbling a bit here -- if a team like the Bucks can get one of the best players in the League and then become a team that has the best record in the League, it goes against your point. The Pacers have the same opportunity, and they've been there, that's my point.

[IU Scott]

Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

I would have to go back and look, but my recollection is that at one point, late 90's or into early 2000's, they had been in 6 of the past 7 EC finals. They were the Beast of the East. I kind of think you're quibbling a bit here -- if a team like the Bucks can get one of the best players in the League and then become a team that has the best record in the League, it goes against your point. The Pacers have the same opportunity, and they've been there, that's my point.

Here are the years the Pacers made the conference finals

94, 95, 98,99,00,04,13,14

They also had a 4 year period of not making the playoffs at all and that was between 07 and 10

[IU Scott]

28 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I would have to go back and look, but my recollection is that at one point, late 90's or into early 2000's, they had been in 6 of the past 7 EC finals. They were the Beast of the East. I kind of think you're quibbling a bit here -- if a team like the Bucks can get one of the best players in the League and then become a team that has the best record in the League, it goes against your point. The Pacers have the same opportunity, and they've been there, that's my point.

Even as good as Reggie was he was never in the conversation for MVP and I don't think he every made the All NBA first or second team.  I my point is that if you are from a small market you will have to get lucky and draft really well.  That is why I think in the NBA you have to really suck for 3 to 4 years so you can get high draft choices.  The Pacers have drafted well and got lucky with some of their mid range draft picks like Reggie or PG and Danny Granger.  The Pacers had enough talent to compete but were never able to totally get over the hump and iwn a championship because they did not have those superstar players.  They were beat in the playoffs by Bird, Ewing, MJ, Shaq and Labron and as long as they were not playing those teams they were able to advance in the playoffs.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Here are the years the Pacers made the conference finals

94, 95, 98,99,00,04,13,14

They also had a 4 year period of not making the playoffs at all and that was between 07 and 10

Ok went back and looked so the P’s made the EC Finals 6 times in an 11 season span (which is obviously pretty dominant) plus another for 7 up to 2014. 

Pretty much every other team also had missed the playoffs at some point for 3 or 4 seasons in a row. Look at the famed Lakers now. Or the Celtics etc. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Even as good as Reggie was he was never in the conversation for MVP and I don't think he every made the All NBA first or second team.  I my point is that if you are from a small market you will have to get lucky and draft really well.  That is why I think in the NBA you have to really suck for 3 to 4 years so you can get high draft choices.  The Pacers have drafted well and got lucky with some of their mid range draft picks like Reggie or PG and Danny Granger.  The Pacers had enough talent to compete but were never able to totally get over the hump and iwn a championship because they did not have those superstar players.  They were beat in the playoffs by Bird, Ewing, MJ, Shaq and Labron and as long as they were not playing those teams they were able to advance in the playoffs.

Ok come on. Reggie was the NBA’s leading 3-point shooter until eventually passed by Ray Allen. He was clearly one of the best 2-guards the league has ever had and a hall of Famer. Looking at all star games (he had 5) is silly, that’s a popularity contest, you only get a few guard picks and he was up against MJ and Iverson etc over his career. When MJ retired and was asked who would take his place he said Reggie - that’s how good Reggie was. No he didn’t take over for MJ but yes he was absolutely in that category of league - leading scoring player, and that team with Rose to the all time great Lakers team with. Shaq and Kobe to 6 games. Pacers can and have competed at the top.

and obviously the Warriors are not a big market team and yet became an all time great team through the draft and by trades. The Pacers can get there 

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Ok come on. Reggie was the NBA’s leading 3-point shooter until eventually passed by Ray Allen. He was clearly one of the best 2-guards the league has ever had and a hall of Famer. Looking at all star games (he had 5) is silly, that’s a popularity contest, you only get a few guard picks and he was up against MJ and Iverson etc over his career. When MJ retired and was asked who would take his place he said Reggie - that’s how good Reggie was. No he didn’t take over for MJ but yes he was absolutely in that category of league - leading scoring player, and that team with Rose to the all time great Lakers team with. Shaq and Kobe to 6 games. Pacers can and have competed at the top.

and obviously the Warriors are not a big market team and yet became an all time great team through the draft and by trades. The Pacers can get there 

The San Francisco area is one of the biggest markets in the country.

[Hoosierhoopster]

26 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The San Francisco area is one of the biggest markets in the country.

San Fran does not make Golden State a big market team. LA, yes, San Fran, no. But they drafted well (Curry 7th, Klay 11th, Draymond 35th) and later, pathetically, acquired KD though of course after winning it all already. Pacers can do the same. Bucks can do the same. Cleveland did the same courtesy of course of LeBron. Etc. 

 

[IU Scott]

40 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

San Fran does not make Golden State a big market team. LA, yes, San Fran, no. But they drafted well (Curry 7th, Klay 11th, Draymond 35th) and later, pathetically, acquired KD though of course after winning it all already. Pacers can do the same. Bucks can do the same. Cleveland did the same courtesy of course of LeBron. Etc. 

 

I just hate seeing small market teams losing guys they draft like New Orleans will in Anthony Davis.  It seems like that teams form small markets who draft well will be penalized because today's players try to get together and play for a big market team.  Wouldn't be surprised to see KD and Kyrie going to New York and playing together.

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I just hate seeing small market teams losing guys they draft like New Orleans will in Anthony Davis.  It seems like that teams form small markets who draft well will be penalized because today's players try to get together and play for a big market team.  Wouldn't be surprised to see KD and Kyrie going to New York and playing together.

I hear you on that, but then you have guys like Duncan, Dirk, and Reggie who stayed their whole careers with their small market teams, and so far Greak Freak is the man in Milwaukee, Lillard is the man in Portland (asked if he would have joined the Warriors, he responded "Hell no"), etc. It is a Star's league, they have the power, but gotta love the guys who stay and raise their teams. Dirk's winning a championship for Dallas (not exactly a small market, but no LA) over LeBron's first Miami team: priceless.

[BGleas]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I hear you on that, but then you have guys like Duncan, Dirk, and Reggie who stayed their whole careers with their small market teams, and so far Greak Freak is the man in Milwaukee, Lillard is the man in Portland (asked if he would have joined the Warriors, he responded "Hell no"), etc. It is a Star's league, they have the power, but gotta love the guys who stay and raise their teams. Dirk's winning a championship for Dallas (not exactly a small market, but no LA) over LeBron's first Miami team: priceless.

You also have David Robinson playing his entire career with the Spurs. While I don't love him and his career is far from over, Russell Westbrook resigning with the Thunder.

But, some of it is on the team. Cleveland surrounded LeBron with bad rosters. Kevin Garnett gave Minnesota 12 years and even initially denied the trade to Boston, but Minnesota, especially towards the end of Garnett's tenure put bad teams around him. N.O. hasn't surrounded Anthony Davis with good rosters. It's not enough to just draft a star player, you have to trade well around them and draft well around them. A lot of times it's mismanagement as much to blame as players leaving for bigger markets. 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

You also have David Robinson playing his entire career with the Spurs. While I don't love him and his career is far from over, Russell Westbrook resigning with the Thunder.

But, some of it is on the team. Cleveland surrounded LeBron with bad rosters. Kevin Garnett gave Minnesota 12 years and even initially denied the trade to Boston, but Minnesota, especially towards the end of Garnett's tenure put bad teams around him. N.O. hasn't surrounded Anthony Davis with good rosters. It's not enough to just draft a star player, you have to trade well around them and draft well around them. A lot of times it's mismanagement as much to blame as players leaving for bigger markets. 

Yes those guys mentioned stayed in one place but that will be a very rare site going forward and those players played in a  different era.  Today these guys grew up being friends playing AAU ball and doesn't have that hatred that players back then had for their opponents like they did back when those others played.

[Zlinedavid]

What defines a "big market" vs "small market"?

If the "big markets" are LA and NYC, nearly everything is small by comparison.  Hell, the Chicago MSA (as defined by the US Census Bureau) is #3 and is half the size of NYC/NJ. 

Classifying teams purely as "big" vs "small" markets isn't entirely accurate.  To me, there are bands:

1. NY-LA-Chicago (all 10M or over)

2. Dallas-Houston-SF/SJ/Oakland-DC-Miami-Philadelphia-Atlanta (6-7.5M)

3. Atlanta-Boston-Phoenix-Detroit-Minneapolis-Denver (3-6M)

4. Everywhere else (2.5M and under)

 

And, does that translate to success? Sure, they throw a lot of money around, but what does it get them? The Knicks have been putrid for the better part of a decade.  Chicago has been sporadic since Jordan. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

30 minutes ago, BGleas said:

You also have David Robinson playing his entire career with the Spurs. While I don't love him and his career is far from over, Russell Westbrook resigning with the Thunder.

But, some of it is on the team. Cleveland surrounded LeBron with bad rosters. Kevin Garnett gave Minnesota 12 years and even initially denied the trade to Boston, but Minnesota, especially towards the end of Garnett's tenure put bad teams around him. N.O. hasn't surrounded Anthony Davis with good rosters. It's not enough to just draft a star player, you have to trade well around them and draft well around them. A lot of times it's mismanagement as much to blame as players leaving for bigger markets. 

Fully agree. It's really too bad AD will probably leave the Pels -- who to their credit did bring in Cousins, and that was starting to work before his injury and departure to GS, but who otherwise haven't done much to give him a good team.

Management is absolutely key. The Spurs and their model became the model for success, GS followed suit, you've got teams like Philly that was God awful for years after Iverson, poorly managed, but got it on track and is now back, and you can see what Sacto is now becoming after years of horrible management, now turning the corner with good team building and management discipline. I've always liked most of the teams built around stars who are loyal to their teams, Pacers (before Bird ran everyone out), Spurs, OKC, Dallas (but not so much the Lakers with Kobe, well, they're the Lakers). (Before someone attacks me, I like the new look P's again, with Vic.)

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

22 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

What defines a "big market" vs "small market"?

If the "big markets" are LA and NYC, nearly everything is small by comparison.  Hell, the Chicago MSA (as defined by the US Census Bureau) is #3 and is half the size of NYC/NJ. 

Classifying teams purely as "big" vs "small" markets isn't entirely accurate.  To me, there are bands:

1. NY-LA-Chicago (all 10M or over)

2. Dallas-Houston-SF/SJ/Oakland-DC-Miami-Philadelphia-Atlanta (6-7.5M)

3. Atlanta-Boston-Phoenix-Detroit-Minneapolis-Denver (3-6M)

4. Everywhere else (2.5M and under)

 

And, does that translate to success? Sure, they throw a lot of money around, but what does it get them? The Knicks have been putrid for the better part of a decade.  Chicago has been sporadic since Jordan. 

Big market is also defined by TV - Media audience, it's big market in terms of money, not just city size / region. Teams like Minneapolis and Denver are not big market teams.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Yes those guys mentioned stayed in one place but that will be a very rare site going forward and those players played in a  different era.  Today these guys grew up being friends playing AAU ball and doesn't have that hatred that players back then had for their opponents like they did back when those others played.

But that's not big market vs. small market. That's just the way the world has changed. There's a good chance Kyrie leaves Boston this summer. Boston is a "big market" team. There's a chance Butler leaves Philly. It's looking like Durant might leave GS. Paul George opted to stay in OKC before even meeting with the Lakers. New York City is as big of a market as there is, and the Knicks haven't gotten a notable free agent in years. 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

But that's not big market vs. small market. That's just the way the world has changed. There's a good chance Kyrie leaves Boston this summer. Boston is a "big market" team. There's a chance Butler leaves Philly. It's looking like Durant might leave GS. Paul George opted to stay in OKC before even meeting with the Lakers. New York City is as big of a market as there is, and the Knicks haven't gotten a notable free agent in years. 

Well I bet if Kyrie and KD leaves it won't be for Indiana or Utah but will be a major marker like New York.  Those big market teams has all the advantages and if they don't succeed it is their fault because they are just inept.