Blind Coaching Resumes

[BobSaccamanno]

2 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

A) I don't remember the conversation we had, so you werent even in my mind. However, if you did make such comments, my opinion still applies. They come off as entitled.

B) You and I must have vastly different definitions of "passive-aggressive". There's nothing that I've said that suggests I'm trying to avoid confrontation. In my prior post, I said, escalate away. I'll civilly argue my point until the cows come home, and welcome those who want to do so in opposition. That's the antithesis of "passive aggressive".

Now, let's discuss the following: "But pointing out the factual matter that IU has not been willing to pay out for a top coach..."

Who should we have hired? And keep in mind, there was no amount of money that would have brought Billy Donovan. There's a very, very good chance that there's no amount of money that would have brought Gregg Marshall. Money isn't the issue with Tony Bennett. Who do you want, and how much should we pay them in order for you to think "IU paid up for a top coach"?

 

Passive aggressive.  Just say you were addressing me. Call me out. The idea that you didn’t think of me right after we discussed the same point is absurd.  Next time, try to make statements about the technical points not calling people who you don’t know personal names.  

I addressed you calmly and you’re still flailing away emotionally.  There is literally nothing here you’re right on.  It’s all nonsensical as it pertains to me.  

You have wrong facts, poor analytical skills, and twist what others say.  You had the opportunity to let this go and you’re still being cocksure and arrogant all the while being dead wrong. This thing you’ve conjured up was over.  Now I’ve lost respect for you and your pathetic antics.  

I have no idea what the hell is up your ass. Maybe take some midol but I’m tired of your attitude.  

[Zlinedavid]

9 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Passive aggressive.  Just say you were addressing me. Call me out. The idea that you didn’t think of me right after we discussed the same point is absurd. 

The exact quotes I used:

 

Now, where they came from:

 

 

They weren't you.  The second post I made was a direct reference back to these.  And again, show me where I've made comments that were meant to avoid conflict.  I've addressed every one of your posts directly.  

 

15 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I addressed you calmly and you’re still flailing away emotionally. 

I have no idea what the hell is uo your ass. Maybe take some midol but I’m tired of your attitude.  

Show me one statement I've made that is directed towards you that is as emotionally charged as the second bold, underlined statement that you made towards me. 

 

[BobSaccamanno]

I honestly don’t care about those messages, David. If I had you on the stand I would systematically dismantle you by showing you our thread, the discussion on money, how you got upset and time stamps of this progression culminating with the entitlement post.  

I was conciliatory to you late today, thinking your irreverence indicated a good personality where it would be well received and that this would be over.  

At this point, we don’t need to discuss anything and we can try to coexist on the board without running head on into each other.   

[IU878176]

There have been a lot of Coach K went 2-98 posts.

On the other hand.....let’s not forget there were three “hot” mid-major coaches a couple of years ago:

Holtman - takes over a declining OSU program (NIT and then no tourney Matta’s Last two years) and goes to the second round of the NCAA each of his first two years.

Mack - takes over a program, from an interim coach, being investigated by the FBI. Everyone thinks the program is toast but they go to the NCAA in his first (only) year and he is waiting for the 7th ranked recruiting class.

Archie - I really hope it works as rebuild part 5 would be harmful to the program.

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, BobSaccamanno said:

I honestly don’t care about those messages, David. If I had you on the stand I would systematically dismantle you by showing you our thread, the discussion on money, how you got upset and time stamps of this progression culminating with the entitlement post.  

I was conciliatory to you late today, thinking your irreverence indicated a good personality where it would be well received and that this would be over.  

At this point, we don’t need to discuss anything and we can try to coexist on the board without running head on into each other.   

Then why didn't I use that conversation as the quotes in my original post?  Because I secretly have some vendetta against you?

Our conversation ran from 2:29PM to 2:54PM Wednesday. 

The quotes that I referenced were originally made at 11:58PM on Tuesday, and 2:25AM on Wednesday, which I didn't read until somewhere between 6:50 and 7:00AM on Wednesday; I made a post quoting it at 7:07AM. 

I went back to those same quotes to copy them at about 11AM today.  The comment you are disputing was made around noon today. 

Those were the quotes that were fresher in my mind because I went back to them around an hour before that to copy them.

As to your claim of me getting upset, please point out where:

If it's the "Believe what you want to believe." comment, that's not upset.  That was in response to your "You don't know that." statement.  At the time, I was feeling lazy and didn't want to type out my entire counterargument, so I just shortened it to that.  What I should have typed is "At the time he was offered the job, according to a source that I, and many other members of this board, trust, stated that a large part of the reason Bennett turned the job down was due the animosity of how Kathi was terminated. Not so much THAT the fact she was terminated, but something regarding the way she was treated in a short period of time leading up to, and just after her termination.  Now, I don't know about you, but if that's the way my sibling was fired, I doubt that would be an organization I'd go to work for, regardless of staff.  I don't have any verifiable data that says that this degree of animosity is still present, but nothing that says that it doesn't.   So you can believe what you want to believe."

If you want to regard that comment as being upset, that's fine.  I'd call it more flippant or more of an "I don't care"-level comment.  Either way, it was not in any way a direct or even indirect attack on you.  If I have made a personal attack on YOU, as a person, please, screencap and show them to me.  I've said that "if you made such a statement, I believe it comes off as entitled." I didn't say "...makes you come off as entitled." In fact, I haven't directed one single derogatory comment or made one assumption about you as a person.  Meanwhile you have questioned my age, questioned my skills, and suggested "that I take a Midol".  If our conversation was the true motivating factor behind my comments, said in such a way as to hope that you argumentatively engage me, why haven't I fired back?

Also, I was so emotionally upset by this, why didn't I choose your direct quotes to use? They had already been made, more recently than the ones I did use in fact. I was so emotionally bothered by our conversation that I purposely bypassed them to use OLDER QUOTES as my reference. 

It wasn't you.  It never was.

[Zlinedavid]

1 hour ago, IU878176 said:

Mack - takes over a program, from an interim coach, being investigated by the FBI. Everyone thinks the program is toast but they go to the NCAA in his first (only) year and he is waiting for the 7th ranked recruiting class.

That team, under investigation by the FBI, under an interim coach, went 22-14.  Mack went 20-14.  It's not like they went 6-30 the year prior. 

[BGleas]

7 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

That team, under investigation by the FBI, under an interim coach, went 22-14.  Mack went 20-14.  It's not like they went 6-30 the year prior. 

And while VJ King hasn’t quite been as advertised, Mack took over a roster that included two returning McDonald’s All-Americans. 

[IU878176]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

And while VJ King hasn’t quite been as advertised, Mack took over a roster that included two returning McDonald’s All-Americans. 

True, but he only had 10 scholarships available and had to fill 3/10 slots with grad transfers.  He is also credited with immediately impacting the culture. Have to give him credit for that.

Archie had Romeo and projected all BT player Morgan which is essentially the same as Mack’s 2 burger boys.  In fairness I don’t think Mack (or almost anyone) had the injury issues we encountered.  

I hope Archie works out as starting over yet again would be depressing.  My point was just that it is not an impossible dream to be successful in a year or two (Holtmans results have been impressive).  Another point is that all of the “Coach x,y,z” went 10-20 in his first years and then became successful” posts fail to point out hot mid-major coaches that bombed. Shaka Smart, Lickliter, Groce, etc.  Just trying to balance the discussion as I really, really, really want Archie to work but think the jury is still sort of out.

[Billingsley99]

Food For Thought"

From 1971 through 2008 we only missed the NCAA Tournament 5 times. 

From 2008 to Current we have missed it 8 times.

Mike Davis went to 4 NCAA tourneys in his 6 years.

From 1964 to 2004 no seasons .500 or less

 

WE are a very spoiled fan base and we have little patience. I feel like we are in the right direction I just not sure how we got to where we supposedly were. The fanbase of the past 10 years have seen more losing basketball than we have seen in the previous 40. Lets just hope that things move upward from here and these dark times are behind us but I am not sure if we take a step forward next year. I am gonna have open mind and be optimistic. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, IU878176 said:

True, but he only had 10 scholarships available and had to fill 3/10 slots with grad transfers.  He is also credited with immediately impacting the culture. Have to give him credit for that.

Archie had Romeo and projected all BT player Morgan which is essentially the same as Mack’s 2 burger boys.  In fairness I don’t think Mack (or almost anyone) had the injury issues we encountered.  

I hope Archie works out as starting over yet again would be depressing.  My point was just that it is not an impossible dream to be successful in a year or two (Holtmans results have been impressive).  Another point is that all of the “Coach x,y,z” went 10-20 in his first years and then became successful” posts fail to point out hot mid-major coaches that bombed. Shaka Smart, Lickliter, Groce, etc.  Just trying to balance the discussion as I really, really, really want Archie to work but think the jury is still sort of out.

It's probably not worth our time to dive into the details on what Archie inherited, in terms of roster, compared to Holtman and Mack, but my opinion is that they both inherited better situations in terms of roster, and for Holtman he definitely was part of a much smoother transition, given that Matta had a ton of success there, had a culture, etc. 

[IU878176]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It's probably not worth our time to dive into the details on what Archie inherited, in terms of roster, compared to Holtman and Mack, but my opinion is that they both inherited better situations in terms of roster, and for Holtman he definitely was part of a much smoother transition, given that Matta had a ton of success there, had a culture, etc. 

OSU was on a downslope with Matta. They went to the NIT his second to last year and no tourney his last year.  Many thought OSU would be terrible this year and they at least made the tourney.  Holtman made the tourney his first two years and according to Rivals currently has the number one ranked Big Ten 2019 class. This sounds like a shot at Archie but I’m primarily saying that Holtman has done a good job ( without looking I assume he has been lucky enough to not be hit by the injury bug ).

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

OSU was on a downslope with Matta. They went to the NIT his second to last year and no tourney his last year.  Many thought OSU would be terrible this year and they at least made the tourney.  Holtman made the tourney his first two years and according to Rivals currently has the number one ranked Big Ten 2019 class. This sounds like a shot at Archie but I’m primarily saying that Holtman has done a good job ( without looking I assume he has been lucky enough to not be hit by the injury bug ).

I hear you and I'm not saying Holtman hasn't done a good job, he has. But he also inherited Bates-Diop (who missed Matta's last season which was a big reason they didn't make the tourney), Ja'Sean Tate, Kam Williams, the Wesson brothers and CJ Jackson. That's a legit group right there, especially having Kaleb Wesson basically gifted to him as a freshmen his first year. 

Bate-Diop and Wesson are better than anyone on IU's roster (including Langford) as college players. 

Also, it's not like our seasons were that different this year. IU and OSU finished tied in the Big Ten and overall OSU had one more win than IU and the same number of losses. 

[rico]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I hear you and I'm not saying Holtman hasn't done a good job, he has. But he also inherited Bates-Diop (who missed Matta's last season which was a big reason they didn't make the tourney), Ja'Sean Tate, Kam Williams, the Wesson brothers and CJ Jackson. That's a legit group right there, especially having Kaleb Wesson basically gifted to him as a freshmen his first year. 

Bate-Diop and Wesson are better than anyone on IU's roster (including Langford) as college players. 

Also, it's not like our seasons were that different this year. IU and OSU finished tied in the Big Ten and overall OSU had one more win than IU and the same number of losses. 

You beat me to it, gonna say the same thing.  

[Zlinedavid]

1 hour ago, IU878176 said:

Another point is that all of the “Coach x,y,z” went 10-20 in his first years and then became successful” posts fail to point out hot mid-major coaches that bombed.

The intent of my post was never to show that "This coach did X-Y-Z in his first three years and then became successful".  The intent was "This is the level of results that most coaches achieve in their first 3 years".  What the coach did after that, I didn't factor in. 

Holtmann is an example who is above the curve.  I'm sure there are more.  But, as was pointed out, he was coming in to a better situation.  That's the other key. 

How much better is up to interpretation, but if you had to rank the situation/roster that Holtmann inherited vs what Archie inhereted, to some degree or another, OSU was the better situation. 

Here's 3 coaches that were former "hot mid-major coaches" that haven't achieved that level of success yet. 

McCaffery and Hurley are still employed in those jobs, Grant isn't.  But, there still isn't a strong derivation within the first two years vs the record of the team they inherited. 

[Zlinedavid]

17 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I hear you and I'm not saying Holtman hasn't done a good job, he has. But he also inherited Bates-Diop (who missed Matta's last season which was a big reason they didn't make the tourney), Ja'Sean Tate, Kam Williams, the Wesson brothers and CJ Jackson. That's a legit group right there, especially having Kaleb Wesson basically gifted to him as a freshmen his first year. 

Bate-Diop and Wesson are better than anyone on IU's roster (including Langford) as college players. 

Also, it's not like our seasons were that different this year. IU and OSU finished tied in the Big Ten and overall OSU had one more win than IU and the same number of losses. 

One other note, Matta wasn't fired/"encouraged" to resign because of performance.  He resigned because of his back issues (which were probably having an impact on the team overall).  It's not like he suddenly lost his ability to coach/recruit. 

[rico]

4 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

One other note, Matta wasn't fired/"encouraged" to resign because of performance.  He resigned because of his back issues (which were probably having an impact on the team overall).  It's not like he suddenly lost his ability to coach/recruit. 

And it ain't like tOSU was a dumpster fire.

[IU878176]

OK. I give...Archie has surpassed my wildest expectations  

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

OK. I give...Archie has surpassed my wildest expectations  

Drama queen alert because no one said he has met expectations but saying it takes time to build a program with the right culture.  It has been shown many times that even the great coaches start off slow sometimes so it is the best to be patient.  Would you want to be the idiot who fired Bill Beilicheck in Cleveland because he did not turn it around quick enough.

[IU878176]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Drama queen alert because no one said he has met expectations but saying it takes time to build a program with the right culture.  It has been shown many times that even the great coaches start off slow sometimes so it is the best to be patient.  Would you want to be the idiot who fired Bill Beilicheck in Cleveland because he did not turn it around quick enough.

As opposed to drama queen please insert “just kidding”.

And PS., in regards to the Belicheck comment....I ALWAYS say I want Archie to succeed and have never said he should be fired.

[IU878176]

20 minutes ago, rico said:

And it ain't like tOSU was a dumpster fire.

I should just let his go but I just read a few pre-season predictions from Sports Illustrated etc and all three mentioned that OSU vastly/greatly over performed in Holtmans first year and they picked them 9th or 10th for this past year. This does not mean Archie stinks but I’m just saying Holtman looks good....up to this point.

I care more about IU basketball, BY FAR, than any other team or sport. In twenty years I sincerely hope that we talk about how great the Archie era has been, that IU plays in Miller Hall, that a couple of more banners are hanging and that I can still get it up.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

I should just let his go but I just read a few pre-season predictions from Sports Illustrated etc and all three mentioned that OSU vastly/greatly over performed in Holtmans first year and they picked them 9th or 10th for this past year. This does not mean Archie stinks but I’m just saying Holtman looks good....up to this point.

I care more about IU basketball, BY FAR, than any other team or sport. In twenty years I sincerely hope that we talk about how great the Archie era has been, that IU plays in Miller Hall, that a couple of more banners are hanging and that I can still get it up.

So with that requirement Archie greatly over performed as well because most people last year picked us around 10th and we finished 6th last year.

[IU878176]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

So with that requirement Archie greatly over performed as well because most people last year picked us around 10th and we finished 6th last year.

The three that had OSU 9th/10 had IU 5th/6th. Sports Illustrated, as an example, had us 5th. (I’m referencing the year that just ended).

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/10/18/big-ten-hoops-preview-michigan-state-romeo-langford

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

The three that had OSU 9th/10 had IU 5th/6th. Sports Illustrated, as an example, had us 5th. (I’m referencing the year that just ended).

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/10/18/big-ten-hoops-preview-michigan-state-romeo-langford

I was talking the previous year because Archie's first year because most had IU finishing 9th or 10th in his first year.

[IU878176]

In quotes I stated.....”I am referencing the year that just ended”  which meant his second season. The linked preview was also the year that just ended.

[IU878176]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I was talking the previous year because Archie's first year because most had IU finishing 9th or 10th in his first year.

I was referencing Archies second year. 

In his first year, however,  SI as an example, predicted we would be 8th and OSU 11th. We did not make the tourney and they won a game in the tourney. 

Again, I hope Archie succeeds but have been especially disappointed by the lack of consistent effort which definitely falls on the players but also the leader (coach). On a positive note the improvement in defense has been great to see and I do acknowledge that he has had incredibly bad luck with injuries. This past team would have gone to the tourney with a healthy Hunter, Davis and Rob.  Basically 3/8 of our rotation was either injured most of the year or missed the entire season. That, combined with an up and down Smith, is a lot to overcome.

I did not expect a tourney run this year but in spite of the injury issues it’s not asking too much for the team that beat MSU twice to at least win a couple of the Nebraska,, MN, Rutgers, 2 Iowa losses, Northwestern games. Just 2/6 of those would have had us dancing.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/10/20/big-ten-preview-team-player-rankings-projections