Chris Holtman at OSU vs Archie Miller at IU

[PoHoosier]

3 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

He’s had the top rated class in the big ten 2 out of his 3 years. 

Doesn't mean he is 'killing' IU.  Recruiting successes of IU have been pointed out numerous times across multiple threads.  Hope we don't have to rehash that debate in this thread too.  Saying we are getting killed on that front is a HUGE disservice to TJD, Franklin, the team and the staff imo.

[rico]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Oh we’re you banned from the others?

What others?  I imagine you are the one that has been banned.

[rico]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Oh we’re you banned from the others?

What others?  I imagine you are the one that has been banned.

[Brass Cannon]

8 minutes ago, rico said:

What others?  I imagine you are the one that has been banned.

http://btownbanners.com/profile/5072-rico/

lol trying to keep your shame secret I guess

[rico]

2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

http://btownbanners.com/profile/5072-rico/

lol trying to keep your shame secret I guess

No, the guys here know I am there.  What is your point?  I am not banned from there.  And why in the Hell do I have to explain myself to you?

[Brass Cannon]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

No, the guys here know I am there.  What is your point?  I am not banned from there.  And why in the Hell do I have to explain myself to you?

I don’t know. You seem pretty desperate to do it. 

Probably the same kind of insecurity that prevents you from seeing the quality of the competition. IE Holtmann 

[PoHoosier]

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

I don’t know. You seem pretty desperate to do it. 

Probably the same kind of insecurity that prevents you from seeing the quality of the competition. IE Holtmann 

Competition is a good thing, especially when it's back and forth.  That exchange is often necessary to qualify a good rivalry.  Setting aside the personal attack to get to a discussion point, I am not seeing how saying we are getting killed (by Holtman) is helpful or truthful.

[Zlinedavid]

2 hours ago, rico said:

No, the guys here know I am there.  What is your point?  I am not banned from there.  And why in the Hell do I have to explain myself to you?

 

1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

I don’t know. You seem pretty desperate to do it. 

Probably the same kind of insecurity that prevents you from seeing the quality of the competition. IE Holtmann 

 

C'mon Rico.  You're the ace fisherman.  Stop being the bait. 

[Brass Cannon]

 

2 hours ago, PoHoosier said:

Competition is a good thing, especially when it's back and forth.  That exchange is often necessary to qualify a good rivalry.  Setting aside the personal attack to get to a discussion point, I am not seeing how saying we are getting killed (by Holtman) is helpful or truthful.

We have yet to beat him in a game. And his recruiting has been more successful and more balanced.  How isn’t it the truth. Holtmann doesn’t appear to be going into his third season with glaring holes in his lineup  

Holtmann - 1,6,1

Archie 3,2,6

Archies has been less talented and has not been correctly balanced  

And facing cold hard reality of your shortcomings is part of improving. So I would say it’s very helpful. 

2 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

 

 

C'mon Rico.  You're the ace fisherman.  Stop being the bait. 

Calling somebody a troll simply because they don’t think our coach is the best young coach in the business is just a testament of how this fan base belittles dissenters and how we get stuck with Tom Crean for 9 years. Because the people pointing out his flaws in year 3 were just “Trolls who aren’t even real fans” 

We are staring down a 4 year absence from the tourney and some people wanna act like that’s not a red flag and was to be expected 

[Long Duk Dong]

I wonder if Archie knew that he couldn't make needed changes to the roster when he signed on.

If they didn't, then that is just BS and typical of this rinky dink operation of IU athletics 

 

[PoHoosier]

2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

We have yet to beat him in a game. And his recruiting has been more successful and more balanced.  How isn’t it the truth. Holtmann doesn’t appear to be going into his third season with glaring holes in his lineup  

Holtmann - 1,6,1

Archie 3,2,6

Archies has been less talented and has not been correctly balanced  

And facing cold hard reality of your shortcomings is part of improving. So I would say it’s very helpful. 

Calling somebody a troll simply because they don’t think our coach is the best young coach in the business is just a testament of how this fan base belittles dissenters and how we get stuck with Tom Crean for 9 years. Because the people pointing out his flaws in year 3 were just “Trolls who aren’t even real fans” 

We are staring down a 4 year absence from the tourney and some people wanna act like that’s not a red flag and was to be expected 

'We have yet to beat him in a game'.  Fair enough.  That is fact.  Separating that from opinion was the crux of my statement.  To say he is 'killing' us was where I objected.  On the court, 0-4.  Your outlook likely ends there.  Last year, we got blown out in the first meeting on the road by 15.  The last 3 games, iirc, 1 road, 1 neutral, 1 home, all decided by a combined 7 points including an OT loss.  No, close doesn't cut it, but that isn't the argument, 'killing' us is not true.  Unless the myopic 0-4 view is taken.

Off the court, recruiting: Sure, Carton was a head to head win for Holtman.  On the other hand, Hunter (100% crystal balled to OSU) and Brunk were head to head battles as well.  Though they haven't played, I would take the 2 we have over Carton.  As for the rest of the class around Carton, it appears solid if you are enamored with rankings as he is committed with 2 other top 60 recruits.  Throw TJD and Franklin in with this class it's a tremendous disservice on many fronts to say we are getting 'killed'.  The first 2 classes, I have not dug into, but on the surface, 3,2 looks better than 1,6.  The fact that all of the measurables are so consistently close with IU/CAM closing the gap, it's hard to say with any justification 'he is killing us'.

Note: spent 5 minutes on this post if any numbers are wrong, I apologize.

[Zlinedavid]

4 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

We have yet to beat him in a game. And his recruiting has been more successful and more balanced.  How isn’t it the truth. Holtmann doesn’t appear to be going into his third season with glaring holes in his lineup  

Holtmann - 1,6,1

Archie 3,2,6

Archies has been less talented and has not been correctly balanced  

And facing cold hard reality of your shortcomings is part of improving. So I would say it’s very helpful. 

Calling somebody a troll simply because they don’t think our coach is the best young coach in the business is just a testament of how this fan base belittles dissenters and how we get stuck with Tom Crean for 9 years. Because the people pointing out his flaws in year 3 were just “Trolls who aren’t even real fans”

Please quote the exact line where I used the word "troll" directed at you. I never used the word troll. You were intentionally trying to bait Rico into an argument though.

[Brass Cannon]

2 hours ago, PoHoosier said:

'We have yet to beat him in a game'.  Fair enough.  That is fact.  Separating that from opinion was the crux of my statement.  To say he is 'killing' us was where I objected.  On the court, 0-4.  Your outlook likely ends there.  Last year, we got blown out in the first meeting on the road by 15.  The last 3 games, iirc, 1 road, 1 neutral, 1 home, all decided by a combined 7 points including an OT loss.  No, close doesn't cut it, but that isn't the argument, 'killing' us is not true.  Unless the myopic 0-4 view is taken.

Off the court, recruiting: Sure, Carton was a head to head win for Holtman.  On the other hand, Hunter (100% crystal balled to OSU) and Brunk were head to head battles as well.  Though they haven't played, I would take the 2 we have over Carton.  As for the rest of the class around Carton, it appears solid if you are enamored with rankings as he is committed with 2 other top 60 recruits.  Throw TJD and Franklin in with this class it's a tremendous disservice on many fronts to say we are getting 'killed'.  The first 2 classes, I have not dug into, but on the surface, 3,2 looks better than 1,6.  The fact that all of the measurables are so consistently close with IU/CAM closing the gap, it's hard to say with any justification 'he is killing us'.

Note: spent 5 minutes on this post if any numbers are wrong, I apologize.

In the sport of basketball going 0-4 against an opponent is getting killed regardless of the games are close. Nobody talks about a competitive sweep. Or at least nobody not trying to make silver lining where one doesn’t exist. 

Brunk said Holtmann didn’t rerecruit him.  So if you are having to call that a win for Archie that’s sad in and of itself.  Hunter we have no idea what was going on behind the scenes since we came out of nowhere to win that crystal is often just guesses till a decision. 

Their one duel was Carton. But that statement wasn’t about their head to head recruiting battles. Which Holtmann won. But I don’t fault Archie for that OSU was best for Carton. What It all boils down to is Holtmann in less time than Archie getting more talented classes and more balanced classes.

We are a single injury away from relying on a freshmen guard for the foreseeable future. (Franklin in 19 and unknown in 2020) That is a recipe for disaster and a huge recruiting issue.  Possible we go grad transfer but as we have seen that’s also a crap shoot. 

[Zlinedavid]

4 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

 

We are staring down a 4 year absence from the tourney and some people wanna act like that’s not a red flag and was to be expected 

The controllable amount of tournament absences by the current coaching staff is 2 years, not 3. You can say "Well, as a fan, I've gone through 3 years, and I'm getting impatient."

How sweet. You're getting impatient. It shouldn't take this long. Guess what....my 5 year old thinks it shouldn't take 4 minutes for water to boil, because he's getting impatient for his lunch.

A coach that does not inherent a tournament team not making the tournament until year 3 or 4 is far from unprecedented:

Took Marshall and Wright until year 4 to make a tournament. Took Barnes, Buzz Williams and Bennett until their 3rd year. And Beilein made the tournament in year 2,but *gasp* missed again in year 3,which is probably a terminatable offense to you had it happened here.

Are there examples to the contrary? Of course. Mack and Holtmann in their current positions are two. I'm sure there are a dozen more you could point out. I'm not saying it's impossible. What I am saying is that it's not unheard of for a rebuild to take 3-4 years to simply make the tournament.

 

[Brass Cannon]

9 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

The controllable amount of tournament absences by the current coaching staff is 2 years, not 3. You can say "Well, as a fan, I've gone through 3 years, and I'm getting impatient."

How sweet. You're getting impatient. It shouldn't take this long. Guess what....my 5 year old thinks it shouldn't take 4 minutes for water to boil, because he's getting impatient for his lunch.

A coach that does not inherent a tournament team not making the tournament until year 3 or 4 is far from unprecedented:

Took Marshall and Wright until year 4 to make a tournament. Took Barnes, Buzz Williams and Bennett until their 3rd year. And Beilein made the tournament in year 2,but *gasp* missed again in year 3,which is probably a terminatable offense to you had it happened here.

Are there examples to the contrary? Of course. Mack and Holtmann in their current positions are two. I'm sure there are a dozen more you could point out. I'm not saying it's impossible. What I am saying is that it's not unheard of for a rebuild to take 3-4 years to simply make the tournament.

 

That’s a page right out of the Crean playbook. Not meeting expectations just call it a rebuild. 

Btw I love how you took the liberty of saying something for me then insulting me for it by comparing me to your kid. The way you post it’s probably a good thing you aren’t still a mod. 

Everybody and their mother thought it was reasonable to make the tourney in year 2. And now people are trying to revise history by saying rebuilds take time. Or more likely Archie dropped the ball and we are looking at missing the tourney again in 2019  because we are 1 injury to Phinisee away from not having a PG. 

People pointing out Archie’s failures shouldn’t just be dismissed. Their were reasonable expectations not met. 

In Year 3 Crean backslid and the people who questioned his ability to coach were also dismissed as impatient. Hmm wonder if they were onto something. Nah they were just being impatient I am sure  

 

[Zlinedavid]

11 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

Btw I love how you took the liberty of saying something for me then insulting me for it by comparing me to your kid. The way you post it’s probably a good thing you aren’t still a mod.

You're absolutely 100% right. In fact, I was asked to step back in to a moderators role again. Aside from other things taking up my time, I prefer being able to speak my mind without needing to worry about representing both the board and myself. So yes, I did compare you and all the other fans saying "I'm impatient... It shouldn't take this lonnnnggggg...." to a 5 year old. That is my opinion of you. Just like your opinion of me is I'm a ridiculous low-standards-having naive overly-optimistic polyanna for even considering the fact that it may take a talented coach more than one season to transform a non-tournament roster into one that can make the tournament. Keep pumping that sunshine, right?

[PoHoosier]

@Brass Cannon

Singling you put as the only one dismissing the positives, resorting to a personal attack, and taking exception to being compared (NOT CALLED) to a five year old...  Wow, just wow.  Get some thicker skin, come back in a few, I enjoy reasonable debate, as mentioned above - good rivalry with back and forth.  Back and forth with respect.  If you dish it out, try to take it too.

[Steubenhoosier]

7 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

 

We have yet to beat him in a game. And his recruiting has been more successful and more balanced.  How isn’t it the truth. Holtmann doesn’t appear to be going into his third season with glaring holes in his lineup  

Holtmann - 1,6,1

Archie 3,2,6

Archies has been less talented and has not been correctly balanced  

And facing cold hard reality of your shortcomings is part of improving. So I would say it’s very helpful. 

Calling somebody a troll simply because they don’t think our coach is the best young coach in the business is just a testament of how this fan base belittles dissenters and how we get stuck with Tom Crean for 9 years. Because the people pointing out his flaws in year 3 were just “Trolls who aren’t even real fans” 

We are staring down a 4 year absence from the tourney and some people wanna act like that’s not a red flag and was to be expected 

I feel that I am very well qualified to comment on the emboldened section of your post, as I was probably the most outspoken critic of Crean on this board, and I am staunchly in CAM's camp as a supporter.

First, there was very little criticism of Crean here, or anywhere, during year 3. The tables turned on Crean after the Syracuse debacle. No IU fan with any sense was calling Crean out after years 1-2, and with year 3 being his first opportunity to coach "his team".

Similarly, no IU fan with any sense should be calling out CAM at this point. Too many other conversations on this board that have detailed the reasons why for me to rehash here. Your insistence on being negative so quickly shows an inability or unwillingness to practice even a modicum of patience and rational understanding as to how the transition from one coaching staff/style to another radically different one is a process that takes more than a blink of the eye. You continue to compare CAM to other programs whose transition was a much smoother one due to a more similar style between the outgoing and incoming coaches. You continue to point out what other programs are doing instead of focusing on the one thing that CAM has control over-what he is doing. It appears as if the thought process you use in creating your posts leaves little room for anything other than compare and criticize.

You have every right to be on this board, as long as you remain respectful in how you mold your responses. You have every right to maintain your critical opinions of CAM, Glass, other posters, what have you. It's really only a reflection on you that you show a history of petulance and jumping to hasty conclusions before the facts have even come close to being fully determined. Have at it. Speak your piece. Be ready for the blow back, because for sure you will get your share. 

I wonder if in other aspects in your life you have come to conclusions on things prematurely, as you seem to convey regarding IU basketball. And would hope that as time goes on, and CAM shows he is the coach we know he is, that you are a big enough person to admit you were wrong. 

 

[Brass Cannon]

2 hours ago, PoHoosier said:

@Brass Cannon

Singling you put as the only one dismissing the positives, resorting to a personal attack, and taking exception to being compared (NOT CALLED) to a five year old...  Wow, just wow.  Get some thicker skin, come back in a few, I enjoy reasonable debate, as mentioned above - good rivalry with back and forth.  Back and forth with respect.  If you dish it out, try to take it too.

Lol what a cop out to that you don’t really have a point. Show me where I dismissed positives. Seeing somebody else’s positives doesn’t mean I don’t see Archie’s. But failing to see Archie as the greatest ting since sliced bread after the debacle of last season

31 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I feel that I am very well qualified to comment on the emboldened section of your post, as I was probably the most outspoken critic of Crean on this board, and I am staunchly in CAM's camp as a supporter.

First, there was very little criticism of Crean here, or anywhere, during year 3. The tables turned on Crean after the Syracuse debacle. No IU fan with any sense was calling Crean out after years 1-2, and with year 3 being his first opportunity to coach "his team".

Similarly, no IU fan with any sense should be calling out CAM at this point. Too many other conversations on this board that have detailed the reasons why for me to rehash here. Your insistence on being negative so quickly shows an inability or unwillingness to practice even a modicum of patience and rational understanding as to how the transition from one coaching staff/style to another radically different one is a process that takes more than a blink of the eye. You continue to compare CAM to other programs whose transition was a much smoother one due to a more similar style between the outgoing and incoming coaches. You continue to point out what other programs are doing instead of focusing on the one thing that CAM has control over-what he is doing. It appears as if the thought process you use in creating your posts leaves little room for anything other than compare and criticize.

I wonder if in other aspects in your life you have come to conclusions on things prematurely, as you seem to convey regarding IU basketball. And would hope that as time goes on, and CAM shows he is the coach we know he is, that you are a big enough person to admit you were wrong. 

 

Once again I will say it slowly. Holtmann doing a better job than Archie’s isn’t an inherently negative statement. Unless you like me expected him to do better. 

I know for a fact there was dissession about Crean going into year 3. Yes there wasn’t very much because it was silenced. With people saying stuff exactly like you just did about how he was the guy and the dissenters would need to admit they were wrong. 

And in regards to my posts being a comparison. This entire topic is a comparison of the two  What did you expect in this topic  

 

[Brass Cannon]

2 hours ago, Zlinedavid said:

You're absolutely 100% right. In fact, I was asked to step back in to a moderators role again. Aside from other things taking up my time, I prefer being able to speak my mind without needing to worry about representing both the board and myself. So yes, I did compare you and all the other fans saying "I'm impatient... It shouldn't take this lonnnnggggg...." to a 5 year old. That is my opinion of you. Just like your opinion of me is I'm a ridiculous low-standards-having naive overly-optimistic polyanna for even considering the fact that it may take a talented coach more than one season to transform a non-tournament roster into one that can make the tournament. Keep pumping that sunshine, right?

Lol the difference is my opinion of you is based on what you have said. Your opinion of me is based on things you made up me saying. 

Im not asking where’s why lunch. I am asking why the water isn’t boiling even though it should be by now. 

Oh and now it’s one season. Amazing how the goalposts keep having to get moved for Archie. Very similar to a guy coaching at Georgia now. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

Guys, dial back the personal stuff. It's not necessary, it only offends and spirals away into negative conversation.

However, Cannon, no, Crean in year 3 was coming off the complete destruction of our program, from have zero -- zero -- scholarship players and playing walkons/baseball players, and just getting his guys in place. You know for a fact there was dissension about Crean in year 3? No, there wasn't. In those first few years, he actually had tremendous fan / student support, he was rebuilding the program, and no one, absolutely no one, expected wins until he built his team. Worth remembering Creek was the budding star who then had those awful knee injuries. After adding Cody, to the prior year's team in which he added Vic, he took IU from 12-20 to 27-9, a Sweet 16 appearance in which we lost to UK, which of course won the tourney that year. Those are the "facts."

[FKIM01]

On occasion, I look at a post from a user I've chosen to ignore.  Usually, it simply reminds me why I put them on ignore and I'm less tempted to look the next time.

Some folks see themselves as having a monopoly on the facts and simply can't be reasoned with.

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, dial back the personal stuff. It's not necessary, it only offends and spirals away into negative conversation.

However, Cannon, no, Crean in year 3 was coming off the complete destruction of our program, from have zero -- zero -- scholarship players and playing walkons/baseball players, and just getting his guys in place. You know for a fact there was dissension about Crean in year 3? No, there wasn't. In those first few years, he actually had tremendous fan / student support, he was rebuilding the program, and no one, absolutely no one, expected wins until he built his team. After adding Cody, to the prior year's team in which he added Vic, he took IU from 12-20 to 27-9, a Sweet 16 appearance in which we lost to UK, which of course won the tourney that year. Those are the "facts."

I'm often floored by the number of people that think IU should have been good, or even just better in Crean's 3rd year. 

[IU Scott]

20 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, dial back the personal stuff. It's not necessary, it only offends and spirals away into negative conversation.

However, Cannon, no, Crean in year 3 was coming off the complete destruction of our program, from have zero -- zero -- scholarship players and playing walkons/baseball players, and just getting his guys in place. You know for a fact there was dissension about Crean in year 3? No, there wasn't. In those first few years, he actually had tremendous fan / student support, he was rebuilding the program, and no one, absolutely no one, expected wins until he built his team. Worth remembering Creek was the budding star who then had those awful knee injuries. After adding Cody, to the prior year's team in which he added Vic, he took IU from 12-20 to 27-9, a Sweet 16 appearance in which we lost to UK, which of course won the tourney that year. Those are the "facts."

Maybe not on here but other sites there were people calling for Crean's head after year 3 and everyone knows which site I am talking about.  It was coming from the same idiots that are calling for Archie's head after this year.  Those people said that year 3 Crean should have not finished last in the conference and it proved that he was not the right coach.

[Hoosierhoopster]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe not on here but other sites there were people calling for Crean's head after year 3 and everyone knows which site I am talking about.  It was coming from the same idiots that are calling for Archie's head after this year.  Those people said that year 3 Crean should have not finished last in the conference and it proved that he was not the right coach.

OK I shouldn't have said no one -- there's always someone. Without labeling them idiots, the "fact" was that Crean, in year 3, had tremendous fan and popular support, having added Hulls, Watford, Creek et al. to the inherited zero-scholarship players/baseball/walkons and consequently starting his first season with the worst record in IU basketball history. The year 3 team was the beginning of expectations, and Creek's injury was a major blow -- I still personally feel awful for what happened to Creek, that kid, highest scoring frosh in the country before his first knee injury, was a sure-fire next level player and a great kid. Cody's addition to Vic (from year 3) was then the monster step that took IU back, in just year 4 after the complete destruction of the program, to a national contender. Crean was, then, immensely supported.