Possibility of a platoon?

[FW_Hoosier]

2 hours ago, Reacher said:

Starting 3 guards screws up the balance by position and negates our depth at the 3. While I'm sure we will see a small lineup at times, I think Archie will take advantage of the size and depth on the roster and, for the most part, play 2 guards, 2 bigs and a wing. 

Which circles back to my original question. Since we appear to have quality depth, do we see platoon tyoe rotations or does he try and always leave 2/3 starters out there. 

Well to begin with, like btownqb said, platoons just aren’t a thing that happens in college basketball in the first place.  And to echo others, I’m also confused about where you’re seeing all this depth, especially at the 3.  We only have 11 scholarship players — 4 guards, 2 wings, 3 forwards, and 2 centers.  And not one of them has shown they can consistently be a high-level Big Ten player.  

Archie has only ever played a three-guard lineup since he got to IU, and he started a three-guard lineup for much of his time at Dayton as well.  Green, Durham, Franklin, Hunter, and Anderson are the only players on the roster that can play the 3 in our system — anyone else would destroy what little spacing we’re going to have to begin with.  (Please let’s not turn this into a debate about whether Smith can play the 3, we’re all smarter than that here.)

Obviously Green will be starting at the 2 and we can assume that Anderson and Franklin will be coming off the bench unless something miraculous happens.  That leaves Hunter and Durham as the only two players competing to start at the 3.  At this point, with Hunter coming off injury and Durham being an upperclassman who’s been a serviceable starter in the past, I think it’s hard to say which one of them will win the starting job.

[IowaHoosierFan]

I could be wrong, usually am, but it seemed to me CAM doesn't like to go very deep in his bench.  Even when things are going badly, he tends to let his starts play.  But that is just my opinion

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ I think FW's post is fair, whether or not it proves correct. 

Smith is not a 3, he does not have an outside shot and has not shown development of an outside shot. 

Wings -- Hunter and Anderson. Franklin comes in as a 2, Smith is a forward, Race is a forward. The 3 is basically other-side 2 but need length, shooting, ability to defend and ability to get to the rim. I think Hunter will be fully back and will earn a starting wing slot but it might be Al. I also think who starts is less important than overall playing time and who finishes, anyway.

[Seeking6]

9 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I could be wrong, usually am, but it seemed to me CAM doesn't like to go very deep in his bench.  Even when things are going badly, he tends to let his starts play.  But that is just my opinion

It's a good point and I think just like players evolve so do coaches. I think we'll learn a bit more about Archie this preseason. I think he stuck with some players last year he normally wouldn't have because of all the injuries. He notoriously had a short bench at Dayton but I get the feeling he might try several options this preseason and form his core by January 1st and stick with it. 

[FW_Hoosier]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Agree. I'm amazed at people thinking TJD isn't starting day 1. Actually really, really surprised. People can cite Carolina or Kentucky or Duke as places where Burger Boys don't start right away (although even there still rare) but it would be coaching/recruiting suicide for Archie and IU if TJD didn't start right away. Add in the fact he's really good too. 

I thought about listing TJD as a locked-in starter, but I’m really just not sure.  Between his lack of high-level athleticism and all the comments about his inconsistent motor, I just don’t know whether we can expect him to have the same impact as most other burger boys.  I would be surprised if he averaged much more than 10 ppg this season.

Then you add in the fact that he’ll either be competing with a junior Smith at the 4 or a senior Davis at the 5.  Obviously neither of those guys are world-beaters, but they’re both upperclassmen with experience in Archie’s system, which apparently takes multiple years to learn.  Davis is probably a better post scorer and defender than TJD at this point if he can stay healthy, so that would leave TJD and Smith battling it out at the 4.  I do think (hope) that TJD should be able to beat him out, but I just don’t know if it’s a sure thing considering Archie’s preference for upperclassmen and any potential improvement in Smith’s game.  I also don’t think Smith will take coming off the bench well at all, so that will be another “chemistry” headache for Archie to deal with.

[Seeking6]

9 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I thought about listing TJD as a locked-in starter, but I’m really just not sure.  Between his lack of high-level athleticism and all the comments about his inconsistent motor, I just don’t know whether we can expect him to have the same impact as most other burger boys.  I would be surprised if he averaged much more than 10 ppg this season.

Then you add in the fact that he’ll either be competing with a junior Smith at the 4 or a senior Davis at the 5.  Obviously neither of those guys are world-beaters, but they’re both upperclassmen with experience in Archie’s system, which apparently takes multiple years to learn.  Davis is probably a better post scorer and defender than TJD at this point if he can stay healthy, so that would leave TJD and Smith battling it out at the 4.  I do think (hope) that TJD should be able to beat him out, but I just don’t know if it’s a sure thing considering Archie’s preference for upperclassmen and any potential improvement in Smith’s game.  I also don’t think Smith will take coming off the bench well at all, so that will be another “chemistry” headache for Archie to deal with.

I'll say this regarding last sentence. Fair or unfair. True or not. Mr. Smith better get comfortable with the idea his role won't be the same as last year. TJD, healthy Davis, Brunk, and healthy Hunter will be eating minutes. What spot is left for him? He's not a true 3 and on paper (if everyone is healthy) he won't be getting minutes at 4 over the one's I mentioned by the time Big 10 rolls around. Unless of course his game has changed this summer. If that's going to be an issue for him...not many options left. 

[IUFLA]

19 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I thought about listing TJD as a locked-in starter, but I’m really just not sure.  Between his lack of high-level athleticism and all the comments about his inconsistent motor, I just don’t know whether we can expect him to have the same impact as most other burger boys.

Not sure I agree with either the "lack of high-level athleticism" (37 inch vertical, and having watched him play, he's very quick for a kid his size) or the "inconsistent motor." I watched 2 or 3 complete games, and I never saw him let off the gas. Center Grove relied on him so much, I think there were times he was just worn out.

I think he can easily be a stretch 4. From what I've seen, he has better handles than Smith, and the form on his outside shot is much better (I'm a big believer that form and repitition will eventually produce over someone whose form is bad).

[Reacher]

I see Jerome as our true 3 and likely starter there. Al and Damezi (more likely) may get minutes there as well. While Justin hasn't shown the perimeter skills for that spot, Looking at the other bigs - Davis, Brunk, TJD, Race, it seems likely Justin would get some minutes there. Seems like he could back up Jerome. Possibly start there until Jerome is ready to takeover?

[rico]

33 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

I thought about listing TJD as a locked-in starter, but I’m really just not sure.  Between his lack of high-level athleticism and all the comments about his inconsistent motor, I just don’t know whether we can expect him to have the same impact as most other burger boys.  I would be surprised if he averaged much more than 10 ppg this season.

Then you add in the fact that he’ll either be competing with a junior Smith at the 4 or a senior Davis at the 5.  Obviously neither of those guys are world-beaters, but they’re both upperclassmen with experience in Archie’s system, which apparently takes multiple years to learn.  Davis is probably a better post scorer and defender than TJD at this point if he can stay healthy, so that would leave TJD and Smith battling it out at the 4.  I do think (hope) that TJD should be able to beat him out, but I just don’t know if it’s a sure thing considering Archie’s preference for upperclassmen and any potential improvement in Smith’s game.  I also don’t think Smith will take coming off the bench well at all, so that will be another “chemistry” headache for Archie to deal with.

As HH stated earlier...does Archie go big?

[FW_Hoosier]

8 minutes ago, rico said:

As HH stated earlier...does Archie go big?

The follow-up question to that is, do you think he’s going to do something he’s never done in his coaching career?

[NotIThatLives]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

As HH stated earlier...does Archie go big?

If tjd and Davis at the four and five is going big then yes about 25 minutes game.  I think we are regurgitating the same conversation but Justin and tjd can definitely play the four.  There's even question of can brunk play the four?Then you have the combination of Davis brunk and tjd at the 5.

I call that going big unless you're talking about put Smith at the 3

[NotIThatLives]

I believe it was Archie himself who recently discussed depth in the front court that he's never had before.

[FW_Hoosier]

21 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

If tjd and Davis at the four and five is going big then yes about 25 minutes game.  I think we are regurgitating the same conversation but Justin and tjd can definitely play the four.  There's even question of can brunk play the four?Then you have the combination of Davis brunk and tjd at the 5.

I call that going big unless you're talking about put Smith at the 3

RP and Green will rotate at the 1, Green, Durham, Franklin, Hunter, and Anderson will rotate at the 2/3, and TJD, Smith, Thompson, Davis, and Brunk will rotate at the 4/5.  I don’t think that’s anything different from what we’ve done the past two seasons, there’s just a little more size at the 4/5.

[FKIM01]

3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I'm going to say a couple of thoughts I have that might be a tad controversial, but looking for differing opinions...

First, I think bringing Justin Smith off the bench would be a mistake. Not that I'm afraid his Pop would go on a Twitter blitzkrieg and sow seeds of discord. I just think Justin has a "starters mentality." Some guys are more effective coming off the bench, and to some, it doesn't matter (Devonte Green comes to mind...you get the same Devonte whether he starts or not), but I think Justin is more dialed in as a starter. The 3 games he didn't start last year (@Minn, Purdue, @Iowa) were all losses. Justin scored 6 points in the 3 games shooting 3-10 and grabbing 9 total rebounds and 6 TOs. When he returned to the starting lineup, he had 3 of his best games (Wisc, MSU, @Ill all wins) scoring 12, 24, and 15, and grabbing 17 boards and 2 TOs. I know that's a small sample, but I do think it illustrates the main point.

Let me preface this second opinion by saying, I love Al Durham. Love his passion and leadership. But I think if he's a starter on this year's team, we're middle of the pack B10 at best. Yes, his outside shot improved. Yes, he's a good FT shooter. Yes, he's a leader. But he's mediocre defensively, especially against strong kids, and he has a penchant for head-down drives that usually result in a blocked shot or a turnover. Good back-up player, but not a starter on an NCAA tournament team.

Just my 2 cents...

 

 

I don't know that I agree with all of what you said, but you made your statement about Justin and backed it up statistically.  Food for thought.  FWIW, I think he's a starter too.

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, Reacher said:

I see Jerome as our true 3 and likely starter there. Al and Damezi (more likely) may get minutes there as well. While Justin hasn't shown the perimeter skills for that spot, Looking at the other bigs - Davis, Brunk, TJD, Race, it seems likely Justin would get some minutes there. Seems like he could back up Jerome. Possibly start there until Jerome is ready to takeover?

Smith would have to improve considerably to play the wing next season, like a lot. It's certainly possible, for sure, but based on what we've seen to this point there is just zero evidence that he's capable of playing the wing. 

[FW_Hoosier]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Not sure I agree with either the "lack of high-level athleticism" (37 inch vertical, and having watched him play, he's very quick for a kid his size) or the "inconsistent motor." I watched 2 or 3 complete games, and I never saw him let off the gas. Center Grove relied on him so much, I think there were times he was just worn out.

I think he can easily be a stretch 4. From what I've seen, he has better handles than Smith, and the form on his outside shot is much better (I'm a big believer that form and repitition will eventually produce over someone whose form is bad).

This could very well be the case, as I’ve really only watched his highlights.  When I’m talking about “high-level athleticism,” I mean that he’s not an above the rim player that’s going to overwhelm you with his athleticism — but he’s definitely a mobile big.  And all the comments I’ve read from his coaches about his motor just make me kind of wary.

My expectation is that, like a lot of bigs, he’s more of a project who won’t be a big contributor until his sophomore or junior year.  Seems like he definitely has all the tools though.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

The follow-up question to that is, do you think he’s going to do something he’s never done in his coaching career?

The follow-up question to your follow-up question is, has he ever had a 6'7"+ wing that he's brought off the bench simply because he prefers to go small, or has going small been more out of simply utilizing the talent he has? 

I admittedly don't know the circumstances around his rosters at Dayton, outside of the year his tallest guy was something like 6'6". We know next season IU will have size in the front-court and we know that Archie said at Huber's that he's excited about Hunter and Anderson because it will give the team the versatility to have size in the back-court. I think it will mainly come down to how ready Hunter and Anderson are. If Hunter is 100% healthy, and as advertised (big if's of course), then I'm certain we're going to see big lineups out there.

Big to me meaning something like Phinisee, Green, Hunter, Smith/TJD, Davis/Brunk. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

Big to me meaning something like Phinisee, Green, Hunter, Smith/TJD, Davis/Brunk. 

That's the lineup I'd like to see if Hunter is ready/fully back, and depending on Al's growth. Al spelling time in the back court. 

Phin / Green - Al / Hunter - Anderson/ TJD - Smith - Race / Davis - Brunk

[NotIThatLives]

14 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This could very well be the case, as I’ve really only watched his highlights.  When I’m talking about “high-level athleticism,” I mean that he’s not an above the rim player that’s going to overwhelm you with his athleticism — but he’s definitely a mobile big.  And all the comments I’ve read from his coaches about his motor just make me kind of wary.

My expectation is that, like a lot of bigs, he’s more of a project who won’t be a big contributor until his sophomore or junior year.  Seems like he definitely has all the tools though.

There's an interview out there where Tracye himself said he needs to work on his motor.  

I mean what does that mean? Effort? Engagement?

[NotIThatLives]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

The follow-up question to your follow-up question is, has he ever had a 6'7"+ wing that he's brought off the bench simply because he prefers to go small, or has going small been more out of simply utilizing the talent he has? 

I admittedly don't know the circumstances around his rosters at Dayton, outside of the year his tallest guy was something like 6'6". We know next season IU will have size in the front-court and we know that Archie said at Huber's that he's excited about Hunter and Anderson because it will give the team the versatility to have size in the back-court. I think it will mainly come down to how ready Hunter and Anderson are. If Hunter is 100% healthy, and as advertised (big if's of course), then I'm certain we're going to see big lineups out there.

Big to me meaning something like Phinisee, Green, Hunter, Smith/TJD, Davis/Brunk. 

Pick any guard to run the point, Hunter at 2, Smith at 3, Tracye at 4, Brunk or Davis at 5.  

Some are claiming that Tracye has better handles than Smith so I guess you theoretically could put Tracye at the three Brunk at the four Davis at the five. You probably only want to do that against the worst 3-point shooting team in the nation.

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Pick any guard to run the point, Hunter at 2, Smith at 3, Tracye at 4, Brunk or Davis at 5.  

Some are claiming that Tracye has better handles than Smith so I guess you theoretically could put Tracye at the three Brunk at the four Davis at the five. You probably only want to do that against the worst 3-point shooting team in the nation.

Sorry, not trying to go at you, by why do people keep putting Smith at the 3? He has shown absolutely zero ability to play the wing. Of course, he could spend all summer improving his handles, passing and shooting, but as of now he's shown no ability to play that role. TJD is also not a wing at this point, if ever. 

[BGleas]

11 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

That's the lineup I'd like to see if Hunter is ready/fully back, and depending on Al's growth. Al spelling time in the back court. 

Phin / Green - Al / Hunter - Anderson/ TJD - Smith - Race / Davis - Brunk

Same. I'd even go something like...

Phinisee/Green

Green/Al/Franklin

Hunter/Anderson/Franklin

TJD/Smith/Race

Davis/Brunk

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out with Al and Hunter, as well as who solidifies a role between Franklin and Anderson, and then of course time between guys like Smith and Race. Also, this isn't me saying Al won't start, just playing around with lineups. 

[NotIThatLives]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Sorry, not trying to go at you, by why do people keep putting Smith at the 3? He has shown absolutely zero ability to play the wing. Of course, he could spend all summer improving his handles, passing and shooting, but as of now he's shown no ability to play that role. TJD is also not a wing at this point, if ever. 

I totally agree I've already set up in this post that he's never played the three but since we started playing all these hypothetical big lineups I threw him out there as a big 3 man Defender

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

I totally agree I've already set up in this post that he's never played the three but since we started playing all these hypothetical big lineups I threw him out there as a big 3 man Defender

Gotcha, my bad. I think in any "big" lineup, at least for extended minutes, Hunter is the wing (or 3 if we're still calling them traditional positions). 

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

RP and Green will rotate at the 1, Green, Durham, Franklin, Hunter, and Anderson will rotate at the 2/3, and TJD, Smith, Thompson, Davis, and Brunk will rotate at the 4/5.  I don’t think that’s anything different from what we’ve done the past two seasons, there’s just a little more size at the 4/5.

An obvious takeaway from the Arkansas NIT game I attended...Green is NOT a press-breaker.  Phinisee was taken out for a breather during the game and Green had a couple of turnovers dealing with the press while Rob was taking a breather and Archie promptly put Rob back in.  Green can dribble and he is a nice outside shooter and likely starter at the 2, but should not be the primary ball handler, especially if facing a press.  Rob was so much more effective breaking Arkansas' press with what I'd call a power dribble.