Lousiville?

[IowaHoosierFan]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss what they think about this.  It would have been easy to just blast me as anti IU and anti CAM.  So thanks HSN for good discussion on this topic.

[hoosiermd]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

This is about organizational structure and strategy. I think the more we learn about how IU has operated since the Knight firing we now know that the athletic department and the university as a whole has made misstep after misstep. Louisville is in the business of winning, where with IU I'm not sure what the athletic department goals are. There's also this old school IU mentality about doing things a certain way being almost as important as winning. 

This. I've always felt that Indiana is trying to solve two problems at the same time. Yes Indiana wants a coach that can win championships, but at the same time they want a coach who will win the way Indiana residents want them to win. That's somewhat of a nebulous definition that always reminds me of former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, but like Stewart we know the "Indiana Way' when we see it. 

So you combine a university & athletic department making misstep after misstep and a nearly impossible task in finding a national championship coach who will win the "Indiana Way" and it's a dicey proposition at best rife with the potential for bad outcomes which we have witnessed for 20+ years now. 

The ghost of Bob Knight looms large. 

[milehiiu]

1 hour ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss what they think about this.  It would have been easy to just blast me as anti IU and anti CAM.  So thanks HSN for good discussion on this topic.

Hey wait. What ?  You're not anti IU. Or Coach Miller ?

I do agree. HSN is a great place for discussing all things IU.  And I do appreciate your participation. If we all thought one way... what fun would that be ?

Thanks for being a member.  And please don't stop being a part of this fun. 

[milehiiu]

1 minute ago, hoosiermd said:

This. I've always felt that Indiana is trying to solve two problems at the same time. Yes Indiana wants a coach that can win championships, but at the same time they want a coach who will win the way Indiana residents want them to win. That's somewhat of a nebulous definition that always reminds me of former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, but like Stewart we know the "Indiana Way' when we see it. 

So you combine a university & athletic department making misstep after misstep and a nearly impossible task in finding a national championship coach who will win the "Indiana Way" and it's a dicey proposition at best rife with the potential for bad outcomes which we have witnessed for 20+ years now. 

The ghost of Bob Knight looms large. 

Correct. IMHO.  IU gave up the ghost to the NCAA under Sampsongate. Only because of the path that Coach Knight set. Doing things the right way.  Coach Knight left a legacy. And IU did not waiver.  What's wrong with playing by the rules ?  Even when others refuse to play by the rules.  I say.  Keep playing by the rules.  Even if it hurts us in the long run.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

This. I've always felt that Indiana is trying to solve two problems at the same time. Yes Indiana wants a coach that can win championships, but at the same time they want a coach who will win the way Indiana residents want them to win. That's somewhat of a nebulous definition that always reminds me of former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, but like Stewart we know the "Indiana Way' when we see it. 

So you combine a university & athletic department making misstep after misstep and a nearly impossible task in finding a national championship coach who will win the "Indiana Way" and it's a dicey proposition at best rife with the potential for bad outcomes which we have witnessed for 20+ years now. 

The ghost of Bob Knight looms large. 

If I had to choose only one of these

1) win a championship but break the rules to do it or

2) not win a championship but play by the rules

I will pick 2 every day

[hoosiermd]

16 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Correct. IMHO.  IU gave up the ghost to the NCAA under Sampsongate. Only because of the path that Coach Knight set. Doing things the right way.  Coach Knight left a legacy. And IU did not waiver.  What's wrong with playing by the rules ?  Even when others refuse to play by the rules.  I say.  Keep playing by the rules.  Even if it hurts us in the long run.

Agree. The hardest part for me in the post-Bob Knight era of Indiana basketball is seeing the mistakes. The margin for error to win a banner is razor thin if you are going to play by the rules, and I think all of us here know that. I don't have the answers and hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20, but I think there were some major red flags whether it was Davis, Sampson or Crean. It's not unlike the situation in the book "Moneyball" where the Oakland A's and GM Billy Beane have to look for market inefficiencies in order to compete with big market teams. In the college basketball landscape, Indiana would be considered a team like the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox. However, they still need to look for those market inefficiencies if they are going to play by the rules and play the "Indiana Way". 

But that starts with the administration and the athletic director which in some ways takes us back to square one. Even from a game theory perspective, because you can't look at decisions in a vacuum, it's astonishing how often Indiana can't get out of its own way. For me personally I think the Archie Miller hiring was the first step towards Indiana making a good decision, but how deep is the rot that Miller has to combat everyday in Bloomington?

[milehiiu]

21 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

If I had to choose only one of these

1) win a championship but break the rules to do it or

2) not win a championship but play by the rules

I will pick 2 every day

Me too !

If anything. The NCAA needs to start playing by the very same rules they set. And quit looking the other way when other schools flagrantly get away with breaking the rules. Forget about how the Death Penalty nearly brought down SMU... and start putting some teeth into their rules.  Even if it means instituting the Death Penalty against schools who break NCAA rules by bringing in lawyers (ala UNC) to challenge the NCAA. In other words. Rules are rules.  Enforce them !

[BGleas]

28 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Correct. IMHO.  IU gave up the ghost to the NCAA under Sampsongate. Only because of the path that Coach Knight set. Doing things the right way.  Coach Knight left a legacy. And IU did not waiver.  What's wrong with playing by the rules ?  Even when others refuse to play by the rules.  I say.  Keep playing by the rules.  Even if it hurts us in the long run.

Chiming in since I kind of started the 'doing things a certain way' topic. I don't think you and IUScott noticed, but I purposefully used the phrase 'certain way' and not the 'right way'. I wasn't alluding to cheating or breaking the rules. Even within the 'right way' there are guardrails that a vocal segment of the IU fan base wants the program to remain in between. There's a certain way of doing things that a vocal segment of the fan base wants things done, and that way is nearly as important as the winning itself. 

I didn't mean cheating. I meant all the things that go into a program, recruiting, coaching style, the pomp and circumstance with things like uniforms, entertainment, etc.

[IowaHoosierFan]

26 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Correct. IMHO.  IU gave up the ghost to the NCAA under Sampsongate. Only because of the path that Coach Knight set. Doing things the right way.  Coach Knight left a legacy. And IU did not waiver.  What's wrong with playing by the rules ?  Even when others refuse to play by the rules.  I say.  Keep playing by the rules.  Even if it hurts us in the long run.

The problem i see is what is the "Indiana Way"?  If its the Bob Knight way, then i would say his way of doing things wouldn't work in today's society so that can't be it (other than graduating a high % of student athletes).  If its having a high graduation rate and kids who don't get in trouble then i say alot of programs meet this. I feel the university is so afraid to do what it takes to make basketball king again.  They don't want another Bob Knight.  They don't want a coach bigger than the university.  But they want banners and as mentioned, its incredible hard to walk both lines.  Do i want want to do what UNC did, not even close.  But i wouldn't mind putting forth effort like Kentucky does with their basketball program, whether you think Cal cheats or not, they have always put basketball at the front.  Their facilities and open checkbook approach keeps them on the national stage.

I think this is what separates us from the other Blue Bloods.  Sports is king to those schools.  Whether its Basketball or Football.  They pull no punches when it comes to making sure they are attractive to all recruits. 

Just my 2 cents

[milehiiu]

13 minutes ago, hoosiermd said:

Agree. The hardest part for me in the post-Bob Knight era of Indiana basketball is seeing the mistakes. The margin for error to win a banner is razor thin if you are going to play by the rules, and I think all of us here know that. I don't have the answers and hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20, but I think there were some major red flags whether it was Davis, Sampson or Crean. It's not unlike the situation in the book "Moneyball" where the Oakland A's and GM Billy Beane have to look for market inefficiencies in order to compete with big market teams. In the college basketball landscape, Indiana would be considered a team like the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox. However, they still need to look for those market inefficiencies if they are going to play by the rules and play the "Indiana Way". 

But that starts with the administration and the athletic director which in some ways takes us back to square one. Even from a game theory perspective, because you can't look at decisions in a vacuum, it's astonishing how often Indiana can't get out of its own way. For me personally I think the Archie Miller hiring was the first step towards Indiana making a good decision, but how deep is the rot that Miller has to combat everyday in Bloomington?

Love this post. Thanks Doc.

[IowaHoosierFan]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Chiming in since I kind of started the 'doing things a certain way' topic. I don't think you and IUScott noticed, but I purposefully used the phrase 'certain way' and not the 'right way'. I wasn't alluding to cheating or breaking the rules. Even within the 'right way' there are guardrails that a vocal segment of the IU fan base wants the program to remain in between. There's a certain way of doing things that a vocal segment of the fan base wants things done, and that way is nearly as important as the winning itself. 

I didn't mean cheating. I meant all the things that go into a program, recruiting, coaching style, the pomp and circumstance with things like uniforms, entertainment, etc.

This is a much better way of saying what i tried to respond to Mile.

[milehiiu]

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Chiming in since I kind of started the 'doing things a certain way' topic. I don't think you and IUScott noticed, but I purposefully used the phrase 'certain way' and not the 'right way'. I wasn't alluding to cheating or breaking the rules. Even within the 'right way' there are guardrails that a vocal segment of the IU fan base wants the program to remain in between. There's a certain way of doing things that a vocal segment of the fan base wants things done, and that way is nearly as important as the winning itself. 

I didn't mean cheating. I meant all the things that go into a program, recruiting, coaching style, the pomp and circumstance with things like uniforms, entertainment, etc.

Understood. As usual. You offer more than what at first is apparent.  Always appreciate everything you bring to the forum.  Don't ever stop.

[milehiiu]

Just now, IowaHoosierFan said:

This is a much better way of saying what i tried to respond to Mile.

BG does have a way with words.  Still appreciate your insights as well.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

This is a much better way of saying what i tried to respond to Mile.

Haha, I was just about to quote your response with the same "you worded it much better than I did" reply. 

Appreciate you starting this topic. I get really tired of the constant Archie discussions, when my belief is that the issues with IU basketball are much deeper than who the coach is, at the moment. 

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

The problem i see is what is the "Indiana Way"?  If its the Bob Knight way, then i would say his way of doing things wouldn't work in today's society so that can't be it (other than graduating a high % of student athletes).  If its having a high graduation rate and kids who don't get in trouble then i say alot of programs meet this. I feel the university is so afraid to do what it takes to make basketball king again.  They don't want another Bob Knight.  They don't want a coach bigger than the university.  But they want banners and as mentioned, its incredible hard to walk both lines.  Do i want want to do what UNC did, not even close.  But i wouldn't mind putting forth effort like Kentucky does with their basketball program, whether you think Cal cheats or not, they have always put basketball at the front.  Their facilities and open checkbook approach keeps them on the national stage.

I think this is what separates us from the other Blue Bloods.  Sports is king to those schools.  Whether its Basketball or Football.  They pull no punches when it comes to making sure they are attractive to all recruits. 

Just my 2 cents

The only thing is teams like UVA and Villanova and even UW has won big while not stooping down to the levels of a UNC or Kansas.  They seem like they do it the right way and don't have trouble winning and those schools is how I want IU to build their program.

[dbmhoosier]

The answer is simple.  Indiana does not want an elite coach or a coach bigger than the University.  Any coach who comes here and hangs a banner will immediately be the most famous person in the state.  These guys know that and that's why they continually refuse to pony up the big bucks for a big time coach even though the money is there.  What they want is a coach who wins 20-25 games every year and keeps the money rolling in but is never elite.  I've said it before and I'll said it again if you ever want an elite program again you must fire McRobbie, Glass, and Shoulders.

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The only thing is teams like UVA and Villanova and even UW has won big while not stooping down to the levels of a UNC or Kansas.  They seem like they do it the right way and don't have trouble winning and those schools is how I want IU to build their program.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that position in my opinion. The issue is, and you've alluded to this with the IU fan base and I'll extend it to the administration, but it's like there's an identity crisis among the fans and admin.  IU (encompassing fans, alumni, administration, etc.) doesn't know who it wants to be. Everyone wants winning of course, but there are factions that want to be Duke, UK, Kansas, etc., there are factions that want to UVA, Villanova, etc., and the program for years seems to be bouncing back and forth with no clear path or direction. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, dbmhoosier said:

The answer is simple.  Indiana does not want an elite coach or a coach bigger than the University.  Any coach who comes here and hangs a banner will immediately be the most famous person in the state.  These guys know that and that's why they continually refuse to pony up the big bucks for a big time coach even though the money is there.  What they want is a coach who wins 20-25 games every year and keeps the money rolling in but is never elite.  I've said it before and I'll said it again if you ever want an elite program again you must fire McRobbie, Glass, and Shoulders.

I agree with you if your goal is to be UK, Kansas and Duke. I disagree if your goal is to be Villanova, UVA, Wisconsin, Michigan State, etc. There are different ways to skin the cat. 

Wherever you stand on that is fine, but IU is paying top 10 money for their basketball coach. UVA and Villanova have won 3 of the last 4 championships and both Wright and Bennett were hires similar to IU hiring Archie than they were hires similar to UK hiring Cal or Louisville hiring Pitino. 

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

The answer is simple.  Indiana does not want an elite coach or a coach bigger than the University.  Any coach who comes here and hangs a banner will immediately be the most famous person in the state.  These guys know that and that's why they continually refuse to pony up the big bucks for a big time coach even though the money is there.  What they want is a coach who wins 20-25 games every year and keeps the money rolling in but is never elite.  I've said it before and I'll said it again if you ever want an elite program again you must fire McRobbie, Glass, and Shoulders.

Yet we are paying our basketball coach elite money so to me you are way off base.  Archie was considered the top coaching prospect the year we was hiring a coach so he was well thought of nationally.  There was no way we were going to get any of the top college coaches and it was a pipe dream to think we were getting Stevens or Donovan.  I know you get your view points from some of your buddies over at Rivals who think like this but it is not true.

[Long Duk Dong]

You guys are just saying what I'm saying, only in a different manner.

 

I admit I'm more crass and pissed at the state of IU athletics than most.

 You guys say IU doesn't know what it wants to be, doesn't care or they need to clean house. I say they look like a bunch of monkeys trying to have sex with a football. It's the same thing.

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

You guys are just saying what I'm saying, only in a different manner.

 

I admit I'm more crass and pissed at the state of IU athletics than most.

 You guys say IU doesn't know what it wants to be, doesn't care or they need to clean house. I say they look like a bunch of monkeys trying to have sex with a football. It's the same thing.

Seems like you would fit well over at rivals

[Parakeet Jones]

13 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said:

I say they look like a bunch of monkeys trying to have sex with a football. 

If that was on channel 3, and the NBA was on channel 4, I’d watch channel 3 even if it was fuzzy. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

The answer is simple.  Indiana does not want an elite coach or a coach bigger than the University.  Any coach who comes here and hangs a banner will immediately be the most famous person in the state.  These guys know that and that's why they continually refuse to pony up the big bucks for a big time coach even though the money is there.  What they want is a coach who wins 20-25 games every year and keeps the money rolling in but is never elite.  I've said it before and I'll said it again if you ever want an elite program again you must fire McRobbie, Glass, and Shoulders.

This is the exact thing Iowa has in football.  They have a coach they gave a 20 year contract to, pay 5-7 million a year and know they are never going to sniff a National Title.  But they have trained their fans to be completely happy with winning 9 games and going to a decent bowl game in a warm location, and they will travel in hoards there.  I never hear anyone here in Iowa talk about making a run at a national title, ever.  Is ridiculous.  

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

This is the exact thing Iowa has in football.  They have a coach they gave a 20 year contract to, pay 5-7 million a year and know they are never going to sniff a National Title.  But they have trained their fans to be completely happy with winning 9 games and going to a decent bowl game in a warm location, and they will travel in hoards there.  I never hear anyone here in Iowa talk about making a run at a national title, ever.  Is ridiculous.  

To me that is fine in football because the chances of winning the championship is very low so just build your program to be competitive.

[hoosiermd]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

Chiming in since I kind of started the 'doing things a certain way' topic. I don't think you and IUScott noticed, but I purposefully used the phrase 'certain way' and not the 'right way'. I wasn't alluding to cheating or breaking the rules. Even within the 'right way' there are guardrails that a vocal segment of the IU fan base wants the program to remain in between. There's a certain way of doing things that a vocal segment of the fan base wants things done, and that way is nearly as important as the winning itself. 

I didn't mean cheating. I meant all the things that go into a program, recruiting, coaching style, the pomp and circumstance with things like uniforms, entertainment, etc.

Agree here which is why I am calling it the "Indiana Way' and saying that the definition is nebulous. If anything, you could almost argue that the state doesn't want Indiana to win the right way because like you said, there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. They want it the "Indiana Way". The next question then becomes what is the precise definition of the "Indiana Way?"

These types of discussions are interesting because I think they start to open the curtain a bit as to why the program is in the state that it's in. 

Excellent segue into Iowa Football as well, which is another program that I could never quite figure out why they want to simply stay an 8-9 win team.