IU Scott Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, hoosiermd said: Agree here which is why I am calling it the "Indiana Way' and saying that the definition is nebulous. If anything, you could almost argue that the state doesn't want Indiana to win the right way because like you said, there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat. They want it the "Indiana Way". The next question then becomes what is the precise definition of the "Indiana Way?" These types of discussions are interesting because I think they start to open the curtain a bit as to why the program is in the state that it's in. Excellent segue into Iowa Football as well, which is another program that I could never quite figure out why they want to simply stay an 8-9 win team. The problem is that if all you care about is winning national championships then you will be unhappy more times than not. There has been 81 tournament champions and we have only won 5 times so 76 years people are unhappy. People need to learn to enjoy the ride and not worry about the destination because you will miss a lot of good times. The 88-89 season is one of the more enjoyable seasons I remember watching an IU team have and that did not even end with a final four appearance. to me the Indiana way is winning with good student athletes who does as much off the court as they do on it. They go to class and do well in their classes and they don't get into trouble off the court. We don't cheat and stoop down to the level of the teams who cheat to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, IU Scott said: to me the Indiana way is winning with good student athletes who does as much off the court as they do on it. They go to class and do well in their classes and they don't get into trouble off the court. We don't cheat and stoop down to the level of the teams who cheat to win. Is that it for your definition of the 'Indiana Way"? Does style of play matter to you? I'm not advocating for the following necessarily, but how would you feel about the below, as long as your initial criteria is being met? - Names on the back of the uniforms? - New uniforms every few years? - New arena? - Lots of one and dones, but ones that go to class during their one year? - A coach that wins with your initial criteria, but says things like Cal about putting guys in the NBA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 Late to the topic. Here's where I stand. I want the rules bent as far as they possibly can be bent without being broken. Now it's up to admin/ad/coaching staff to figure out the rest. I know I'm tired of missing the tourney. I'm tired of having to scratch and claw to get to 11 wins in conference play. I'm tired of not being in a Final 4 in 17 years. The moral police can call me whatever but I'm tired of something I love so much being viewed as an also ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Duk Dong Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, IU Scott said: The problem is that if all you care about is winning national championships then you will be unhappy more times than not. There has been 81 tournament champions and we have only won 5 times so 76 years people are unhappy. People need to learn to enjoy the ride and not worry about the destination because you will miss a lot of good times. The 88-89 season is one of the more enjoyable seasons I remember watching an IU team have and that did not even end with a final four appearance. to me the Indiana way is winning with good student athletes who does as much off the court as they do on it. They go to class and do well in their classes and they don't get into trouble off the court. We don't cheat and stoop down to the level of the teams who cheat to win. It's not just about winning it all. It's about final fours, Elite Eights, showing up for the Big Ten Tourney. It's about being an annual NCAA Tourney team and being contenders every 3 years or so. This really shouldn't be difficult for Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 20 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Late to the topic. Here's where I stand. I want the rules bent as far as they possibly can be bent without being broken. Now it's up to admin/ad/coaching staff to figure out the rest. I know I'm tired of missing the tourney. I'm tired of having to scratch and claw to get to 11 wins in conference play. I'm tired of not being in a Final 4 in 17 years. The moral police can call me whatever but I'm tired of something I love so much being viewed as an also ran. I don't disagree with this. As you said, don't cross the line, but I have no problem with IU approaching the line in an atmosphere where most of our competitors are and the NCAA, universities and university presidents seem to not care whatsoever or be willing to do anything about it. That doesn't mean I want Archie dropping off bags of cash on recruits doorsteps, but we also don't need the compliance department actively hunting to derail the basketball program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 17 minutes ago, Long Duk Dong said: It's not just about winning it all. It's about final fours, Elite Eights, showing up for the Big Ten Tourney. It's about being an annual NCAA Tourney team and being contenders every 3 years or so. This really shouldn't be difficult for Indiana. No problem with this. There's no reason IU basketball shouldn't be part of the top, consistent programs in the Big Ten. No reason IU shouldn't consistently compete for Big Ten Titles, top 4 NCAA seeds and regular Sweet Sixteen/Elite 8 runs with a Final Four appearance here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 It's a shame to think that some IU fans don't think that IU is no longer an elite program. While I talk to other fan bases that still consider IU as an elite program, based on our history, despite what has gone on recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud2BAHoosier Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, milehiiu said: It's a shame to think that some IU fans don't think that IU is no longer an elite program. While I talk to other fan bases that still consider IU as an elite program, based on our history, despite what has gone on recently. Unfortunately Mile, we live in a society of what have you done lately? And frankly, there hasn't been much in either basketball or football. the can base is getting restless..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 10 minutes ago, milehiiu said: It's a shame to think that some IU fans don't think that IU is no longer an elite program. While I talk to other fan bases that still consider IU as an elite program, based on our history, despite what has gone on recently. I think IU basketball is elite in terms of fans, audience draw, TV ratings, revenue, etc., but IU basketball has not been consistently elite in terms of wins in around 20 years. The fact that IU almost always gets paired with Duke or UNC in the Big-ACC Challenge shows that IU is still a major draw in college basketball, there's no denying that, but again IU hasn't been elite in the win column consistently in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 Love ya both Proud and BG. However, and I will say.. based on people I talk to... Indiana BB is still considered to be an elite program. Ask the same question.... of say Colorado.... and all I get is a strange look, or even a laugh. As much as I love following the Buffs, they are no where near IU's level, in the minds of who I talk to. Coach Knight was many things. However, he left us with a legacy that lives on in the minds of people that really don't follow college BB that much. Yet still feel IU is an elite BB program. As do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhunter Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 The problem is that kids we recruit don’t think we are elite because none of them are old enough to know any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 54 minutes ago, milehiiu said: It's a shame to think that some IU fans don't think that IU is no longer an elite program. While I talk to other fan bases that still consider IU as an elite program, based on our history, despite what has gone on recently. Blue blood sure! Not a better draw for most networks. But I think we've more than patient. It's the like the old business partner that carried a firm for 10 years 20 years ago. Eventually you have to say yes....we thank and love you but you either have to produce or hit the bricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, Bowhunter said: The problem is that kids we recruit don’t think we are elite because none of them are old enough to know any different. Good point. If only... I could ever get a chance to talk to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 49 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said: Unfortunately Mile, we live in a society of what have you done lately? And frankly, there hasn't been much in either basketball or football. the can base is getting restless..... Lately is 7-8 years. I think we've been more than patient with this operation. 17 years. Flagship school for the biggest hotbed of high school talent in the country. 17 frickin years. I'm not going to keep saying give this one time or whatever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, milehiiu said: It's a shame to think that some IU fans don't think that IU is no longer an elite program. While I talk to other fan bases that still consider IU as an elite program, based on our history, despite what has gone on recently. I would say the problem is these kids we are recruitimg haven't seen it or known it unless they were raised by true IU fans. So yeah, it is definitely what have you done for me lately, most importantly to recruiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, BGleas said: Is that it for your definition of the 'Indiana Way"? Does style of play matter to you? I'm not advocating for the following necessarily, but how would you feel about the below, as long as your initial criteria is being met? - Names on the back of the uniforms? - New uniforms every few years? - New arena? - Lots of one and dones, but ones that go to class during their one year? - A coach that wins with your initial criteria, but says things like Cal about putting guys in the NBA? 1- does not matter how you play on the court 2- same as above 3- I would like to see a new arena but does not really matter 4- NO I would not be in favor of a class full of one and one players 5- Couldn't care less about what Cal says about getting kids to the NBA. If a kid is good enough it does not matter where they go to college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 AND. UK continues to refuse to play IU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, BGleas said: No problem with this. There's no reason IU basketball shouldn't be part of the top, consistent programs in the Big Ten. No reason IU shouldn't consistently compete for Big Ten Titles, top 4 NCAA seeds and regular Sweet Sixteen/Elite 8 runs with a Final Four appearance here and there. To me the first goal every year for IU s to compete and win the conference because that is the best step to a deep run in the tournament. To me if all you care about is the 3 weeks in March you are missing a lot of exciting basketball. I do think we should make the tournament most years and shouldn't really miss the tournament but a deep run most years are hard to do because sometimes it is about luck as much as skill to make that run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 20 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Lately is 7-8 years. I think we've been more than patient with this operation. 17 years. Flagship school for the biggest hotbed of high school talent in the country. 17 frickin years. I'm not going to keep saying give this one time or whatever.... We have been patient with the program but sometimes get a little impatient with coaches to soon. What happen 20 years ago doe snot have anything to do with Archie so he should get time to prove if he can turn it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: We have been patient with the program but sometimes get a little impatient with coaches to soon. What happen 20 years ago doe snot have anything to do with Archie so he should get time to prove if he can turn it around. Snot or not. I believe Archie deserves more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 56 minutes ago, IU Scott said: We have been patient with the program but sometimes get a little impatient with coaches to soon. What happen 20 years ago doe snot have anything to do with Archie so he should get time to prove if he can turn it around. Agree all day. We have to stick with a guy. But we've been asked as fans to do that for 17 years. Just like Coach Knight said in his Felling recording. I'm not here to f--- around this week. You maybe. But I'm not. I want that expectation again. That's why Knight was the best. He deep down wanted it more than us. Because that was his expectation of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 3 hours ago, IU Scott said: To me the first goal every year for IU s to compete and win the conference because that is the best step to a deep run in the tournament. To me if all you care about is the 3 weeks in March you are missing a lot of exciting basketball. I do think we should make the tournament most years and shouldn't really miss the tournament but a deep run most years are hard to do because sometimes it is about luck as much as skill to make that run. Along with HH, I’ve been the champion of the point of view that the Big Ten Conference should be a main priority. If you’re consistently competing for the Big Ten then you’ll consistently get high seeds in March. The tournament is a crap shoot, but if IU can be a top 3-4 conference team consistently, and win the conference every few years, then you’ll eventually break through in March, because the NCAA a Tournament is about getting at bats as a high seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 4 hours ago, milehiiu said: Love ya both Proud and BG. However, and I will say.. based on people I talk to... Indiana BB is still considered to be an elite program. Ask the same question.... of say Colorado.... and all I get is a strange look, or even a laugh. As much as I love following the Buffs, they are no where near IU's level, in the minds of who I talk to. Coach Knight was many things. However, he left us with a legacy that lives on in the minds of people that really don't follow college BB that much. Yet still feel IU is an elite BB program. As do I. I don’t really think Colorado is the bar for whether or not IU is elite. Again though, IU is absolutely elite in terms of fan base, the audience IU delivers to networks, history/tradition, home court advantage, revenue, etc., etc., but IU has not been elite on the court in terms of winning the last 15 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 5 hours ago, BGleas said: I think IU basketball is elite in terms of fans, audience draw, TV ratings, revenue, etc., but IU basketball has not been consistently elite in terms of wins in around 20 years. The fact that IU almost always gets paired with Duke or UNC in the Big-ACC Challenge shows that IU is still a major draw in college basketball, there's no denying that, but again IU hasn't been elite in the win column consistently in a long time. Gleas you and I have largely agreed over the years and here as to “consistently” — that’s the qualifier here, and it’s right. At the same time it’s also true that While Crean ultimately failed for all the reasons we’ve covered, class balance etc., leading to inconsistency - we were the nation’s longest running ..#1 team during one of those runs with Vic and Cody - we were repeatedly in the SW 16 and won 2 tough B1G’s during that run, and during that time were very much considered one of the top teams in the country,l - During that run we were also one of the few teams that beat that UK team that ended up winning the NC and when they got past us in the tourney it was with a ridiculous free throw barrage and then, iirc only after Vic fouled out I don’t think the U should be faulted in this context. Crean rebuilt the program. He wasn’t right for the long term but he did get us back to competing at the top and with program recognition, he just couldn’t do it consistently (and his D wasn’t the best etc). So when Archie was hired most felt that was a strong hire with the likelihood that he was the right guy to get IU back up there and consistently. Now we’re just 2 seasons in and we’re back to questioning the program, and after a season that started 12-2, but had multiple significant injuries and players out and chemistry issues for the cherry on top. I don’t mean to say this kind of discussion isn’t worthwhile, interesting, or not right, but man it would be nice to look at the simple fact that we’re just 2 seasons in with CAM, who is obviously still getting his recruits in the door (that’s not directed at you, again we have tended to see things the same RE consistency problems) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 23 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Gleas you and I have largely agreed over the years and here as to “consistently” — that’s the qualifier here, and it’s right. At the same time it’s also true that While Crean ultimately failed for all the reasons we’ve covered, class balance etc., leading to inconsistency - we were the nation’s longest running ..#1 team during one of those runs with Vic and Cody - we were repeatedly in the SW 16 and won 2 tough B1G’s during that run, and during that time were very much considered one of the top teams in the country,l - During that run we were also one of the few teams that beat that UK team that ended up winning the NC and when they got past us in the tourney it was with a ridiculous free throw barrage and then, iirc only after Vic fouled out I don’t think the U should be faulted in this context. Crean rebuilt the program. He wasn’t right for the long term but he did get us back to competing at the top and with program recognition, he just couldn’t do it consistently (and his D wasn’t the best etc). So when Archie was hired most felt that was a strong hire with the likelihood that he was the right guy to get IU back up there and consistently. Now we’re just 2 seasons in and we’re back to questioning the program, and after a season that started 12-2, but had multiple significant injuries and players out and chemistry issues for the cherry on top. I don’t mean to say this kind of discussion isn’t worthwhile, interesting, or not right, but man it would be nice to look at the simple fact that we’re just 2 seasons in with CAM, who is obviously still getting his recruits in the door (that’s not directed at you, again we have tended to see things the same RE consistency problems) I understand what you mean, but to me elite means consistently over time, not just elite moments here and there. Those are all great things you mentioned, absolutely, and I wasn’t knocking Crean, he did some great things, but IU hasn’t been consistently elite in terms of winning for 15+ years. For example, I don’t consider Texas Tech elite at this point. They had 2 elite seasons, but IMO to be an elite program you have to do consistently over time IU has missed the tournament in 8 of the last 15 seasons, including each of the last three and 4 of the last 6, with those last two data points not including Crean’s first 3 seasons. IU has only made the tournament 4 times in the last 11 seasons. I’ve been very vocal about supporting Archie and I believe if we’re all patient he has a good chance to get IU back to being consistently elite. But yes, IU has had some elite moments, for sure, I was just referring more to consistently elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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