Conspiracy Theory: Devonte Green

[HoosierJax]

7 minutes ago, Zuckerkorn said:

During the Maryland debacle there were two things on the sideline that drew my attention.  The first was in the first half, I believe.  We had a really good possession or play and it appeared that Archie walked about half way down our bench and was clapping wildly directly at someone (player).  I don't know who he might have been directing that towards or why.  At the time it seemed odd, either done to motivate or mock someone.

The second was sometime in the middle part of the second half.  During a timeout the camera was focused on our players who were in the game, sitting and listening to Archie.  Green seemed to be paying attention to what was being said, then kind of lost interest and stopped looking at the coach.  Again, I have no idea iif this was anything negative or not, but both of these instances caught my attention.  Admittedly, when your team is getting drubbed you begin to look for "problems".  Anyone see or have an observation like these?

I have seen various "problems " like your talking about for 3 years...i always think back to the time CAM took him out of a game and CAM went to stop Green on his way to the bench and Devonte just blew right past him with a F**k you look on his face.

[IUCrazy2]

17 minutes ago, HoosierJax said:

Devonte only has one gear and thats Devonte gear...he is only concerned about how he looks out on the floor..he likes to have flare to his game...i mean the kid tried 5 times to make those one handed zip passes with flare and never completed one against Arkansas...all turnovers...thats a possible 10 pts..thats not counting the 3's he bricked up...if CAM is going to play him then you can figure him potentially costing the team about 12-16 pts a game..the sad part is he pretty much has to play him...i think he made him a captain hoping the responsibility would settle him a bit.

Not to belabor this point (but I am going to), then why did we not look for a graduate player that could put Green on the bench?  Seriously, I think it was the grad transfer for Purdue that hit a big shot late that allowed them to get to OT against Minnesota the other night.  There were people out there.  

If Green is a problem, then he should have been cut loose.  Miller strikes me as bull headed to the point where it is going to be detrimental to his career.

[HoosierJax]

32 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Not to belabor this point (but I am going to), then why did we not look for a graduate player that could put Green on the bench?  Seriously, I think it was the grad transfer for Purdue that hit a big shot late that allowed them to get to OT against Minnesota the other night.  There were people out there.  

If Green is a problem, then he should have been cut loose.  Miller strikes me as bull headed to the point where it is going to be detrimental to his career.

You need to ask that question to someone that sits on the sidelines...if we recruited how i thought...people on this board would be critical of me...😁🤟

[zerawkid]

Okay, so, assuming there is even a tiny amount of static between Green and the staff, but maybe the staff has assumed it’s not serious and is manageable, I guess my next concern is what this says about the rest of the team and, what’s more, the confidence the staff has in them. 
 

The team seems to be a train wreck right now: fundamentals have tanked. I always take November and a December with a relative grain of salt because it’s a lengthy season and teams can improve and catch fire as they go. We’ve seemingly gone backwards. 
 

All the negative assessments aside, does anybody see anything the team can use to grow on? Can we find success by getting back to crashing the glass, moving our feet on defense, hitting our free throws, taking care of the ball, playing through the post? Is there enough there to get us turned around and into the post season? 
 

Also, is it too late to develop moxie?

[BGleas]

It’s just disappointing to not see more urgency out of Green and Davis when they’re seriously flirting with becoming the first 4-year IU players to never play in an NCAA Tournament. I know Davis has been hampered by injuries, I really get that, but when I watch those guys play I don’t see two guys playing with desperation to not make the kind of IU history that you’d want to avoid. 

[zerawkid]

16 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It’s just disappointing to not see more urgency out of Green and Davis when they’re seriously flirting with becoming the first 4-year IU players to never play in an NCAA Tournament. I know Davis has been hampered by injuries, I really get that, but when I watch those guys play I don’t see two guys playing with desperation to not make the kind of IU history that you’d want to avoid. 

I see it from Deron, for sure. I really do. I see urgency and effort...almost desperation. But, unfortunately, officials have it in for him and his feet are a defensive liability...it’s a terrible combination. As a result, he hasn’t been able to get off the pine and as a further result he struggles to work within the tempo of the game.

Deron I have utter sympathy for...Devonte, not so much. With Devonte, so many of his issues are entirely fixable, because they are mental and coachable. That guy just needs to listen to what he’s being told and really do it. As a result, he could be our spark plug. 

[BGleas]

Just now, zerawkid said:

I see it from Deron, for sure. I really do. I see urgency and effort...almost desperation. But, unfortunately, officials have it in for him and his feet are a defensive liability...it’s a terrible combination. As a result, he hasn’t been able to get off the pine and as a further result he struggles to work within the tempo of the game.

Deron I have utter sympathy for...Devonte, not so much. With Devonte, so many of his issues are entirely fixable, because they are mental and coachable. That guy just needs to listen to what he’s being told and really do it.

I disagree a bit with DeRon. Absolutely, the injuries have greatly impacted him. At this point, he can’t really do anything about his lack of athleticism, lateral movement and vertical. I completely get that. But, I also see a senior making the same dumb fouls he’s made for 4 year. It’s not the officials fault.

At some point, especially as a senior, you have to understand what’s being called. You have to understand that 14 games into your last season that there is a reason you get 2 fouls called on you within 30 seconds almost every time you enter the game. It’s not the refs fault. 

Im with you, I have complete sympathy for Davis and his injury plight, and he does give effort and play hard, but at some point you have to start playing smart and with the savvy and IQ of a senior. 

[HoosierDom]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I disagree a bit with DeRon. Absolutely, the injuries have greatly impacted him. At this point, he can’t really do anything about his lack of athleticism, lateral movement and vertical. I completely get that. But, I also see a senior making the same dumb fouls he’s made for 4 year. It’s not the officials fault.

At some point, especially as a senior, you have to understand what’s being called. You have to understand that 14 games into your last season that there is a reason you get 2 fouls called on you within 30 seconds almost every time you enter the game. It’s not the refs fault. 

Im with you, I have complete sympathy for Davis and his injury plight, and he does give effort and play hard, but at some point you have to start playing smart and with the savvy and IQ of a senior. 

When was the last time you saw a charge called on a guy that didn't have the ball? I don't think there's any ref conspiracy against him (although, to be honest, given all the calls against him, I would not be a bit surprised if Davis, at some point, said of did something that has permanently pissed off officials), but at the very least, officials are watching him like a hawk. He does some silly, careless things, but I don't think he gets a fair shake.

 

 

[HoosierDom]

16 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

I mentioned this after the Arkansas game when TJD only got 3 touches in the second half and green was building a brick wall. 

I work with a young guy that is friends with a womens bball player and a couple cheerleaders.  Archie and green do not like each other on a personal level and Archie can not stand the way he plays according to what my coworker has heard. It seems clear it's TRUE. 

This team needs purged of crean recruits, except Race but could be argued he is an Archie recruit. 

I don't know nor care if Green and Archie are friends. 

From what I see it's unquestionable that Archie can not stand the way Green plays. That's not a reason to kick him off the team. That's what happens when you take over a program, you get players that you would never pick for yourself and you have to make do the best you can. 

[zerawkid]

34 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I disagree a bit with DeRon. Absolutely, the injuries have greatly impacted him. At this point, he can’t really do anything about his lack of athleticism, lateral movement and vertical. I completely get that. But, I also see a senior making the same dumb fouls he’s made for 4 year. It’s not the officials fault.

At some point, especially as a senior, you have to understand what’s being called. You have to understand that 14 games into your last season that there is a reason you get 2 fouls called on you within 30 seconds almost every time you enter the game. It’s not the refs fault. 

Im with you, I have complete sympathy for Davis and his injury plight, and he does give effort and play hard, but at some point you have to start playing smart and with the savvy and IQ of a senior. 

Meh, those two games he got two fouls within his first couple minutes into the games, at least half the calls were bunk. The problem with not being able to stay in the game is you can’t get into game speed. Some of that contributes to the fouls, it’s not all about IQ.

[jefftheref]

If it is true that Devonte is a problem and is creating issues then it is on the head coach for not dealing with the issue by changing the attitude of the player or removing him from the team.

I don't give a you know what about the athletes bill of rights. The team comes first. 

 

[IUwins0708]

If he’s causing a problem Archie should pull his captaincy.  I thought of this after the game but if I were Archie I’d pull Al’s and Devontes captain title.  

[BGleas]

35 minutes ago, zerawkid said:

Meh, those two games he got two fouls within his first couple minutes into the games, at least half the calls were bunk. The problem with not being able to stay in the game is you can’t get into game speed. Some of that contributes to the fouls, it’s not all about IQ.

So we only have one guys that consistently gets taken out of games because of fouls, but it’s the refs fault, not his? How come TJD and Brunk rarely get in foul trouble? The refs just have it out for a little used, oft injured big on the end of IU’s bench? 

He needs to play smarter. 

[BEKA]

2 hours ago, IUwins0708 said:

If he’s causing a problem Archie should pull his captaincy.  I thought of this after the game but if I were Archie I’d pull Al’s and Devontes captain title.  

I mean, do you really think that is going to motivate either player or solve ongoing chemistry issues? I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is the best approach. One aspect of high-level coaching that I don't think Archie has mastered yet is how to psychologically motivate individual players. For sure, DG seems like a particularly challenging case, but he's halfway through his senior year already. If he hasn't gotten it yet, it's probably not going to happen regardless of what types of punishments/rewards are meted out. 

[zerawkid]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

So we only have one guys that consistently gets taken out of games because of fouls, but it’s the refs fault, not his? How come TJD and Brunk rarely get in foul trouble? The refs just have it out for a little used, oft injured big on the end of IU’s bench? 

He needs to play smarter. 

Okay, not what I said.
 

As a matter of fact, Gleas, we agree on more than we don’t, here, I’m not arguing with you. I already decried his “slow feet” as a huge part of his problem. His slow feet are related to his basketball IQ.
 

Also, I’m not “blaming refs,” I am merely suggesting that, in concert with not getting to the spot defensively, he’s also suffered misfortune of some questionable calls. It’s been a recipe for his butt and the bench being close mates this season, which contributes directly to him not being able to get into game speed. 

Like pretty much everything in life, it’s shades of grey, not black and white.

[zerawkid]

2 hours ago, IUwins0708 said:

If he’s causing a problem Archie should pull his captaincy.  I thought of this after the game but if I were Archie I’d pull Al’s and Devontes captain title.  

It might be EXACTLY what is needed.

I mean, it likely can’t hurt. Intelligence and urgency are missing and on court leadership directly effect those items in-game.

[zerawkid]

19 minutes ago, BEKA said:

I mean, do you really think that is going to motivate either player or solve ongoing chemistry issues? I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is the best approach. One aspect of high-level coaching that I don't think Archie has mastered yet is how to psychologically motivate individual players. For sure, DG seems like a particularly challenging case, but he's halfway through his senior year already. If he hasn't gotten it yet, it's probably not going to happen regardless of what types of punishments/rewards are meted out. 

So, I hear you. I’m not sure if Archie struggles to motivate players individually, if so, I’m not so sure he would have experienced his levels of success. Maybe DG is an exception and in our case is a buzz saw for team chemistry and morale.

Taking your point about DG being 7/8 of the way done with his college career and not getting it yet, likely never going to: wouldn’t it stand to reason, at this point, that the only thing that might work would be something incredibly dramatic, like suspending his captaincy? Challenging him to earn it back?

[BEKA]

10 minutes ago, zerawkid said:

Taking your point about DG being 7/8 of the way done with his college career and not getting it yet, likely never going to: wouldn’t it stand to reason, at this point, that the only thing that might work would be something incredibly dramatic, like suspending his captaincy? 

I guess it depends on what the goal is. If you're trying to get DG's attention, then maybe? I really don't know if he cares enough at this point to earn it back. Admittedly, I don't know enough about the roles and responsibilities that come with captaincy, but isn't voting for team captains a team decision? I just feel like pulling captain status at this point is just another disruption to the team that further sends chemistry down the toilet. I'm not a coach or player though, so that's just my opinion. Honestly, there aren't any easy answers to any of this. 

[jefftheref]

4 hours ago, zerawkid said:

So, I hear you. I’m not sure if Archie struggles to motivate players individually, if so, I’m not so sure he would have experienced his levels of success. Maybe DG is an exception and in our case is a buzz saw for team chemistry and morale.

Taking your point about DG being 7/8 of the way done with his college career and not getting it yet, likely never going to: wouldn’t it stand to reason, at this point, that the only thing that might work would be something incredibly dramatic, like suspending his captaincy? Challenging him to earn it back?

If the attitude is the problem suspending his captaincy is not the answer. Suspending his playing time is the only option. What is it going to matter, he is playing like crap and we are losing?

 

[zerawkid]

35 minutes ago, BEKA said:

I guess it depends on what the goal is. If you're trying to get DG's attention, then maybe? I really don't know if he cares enough at this point to earn it back. Admittedly, I don't know enough about the roles and responsibilities that come with captaincy, but isn't voting for team captains a team decision? I just feel like pulling captain status at this point is just another disruption to the team that further sends chemistry down the toilet. I'm not a coach or player though, so that's just my opinion. Honestly, there aren't any easy answers to any of this. 

Truth.

[IUwins0708]

1 hour ago, BEKA said:

I mean, do you really think that is going to motivate either player or solve ongoing chemistry issues? I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is the best approach. One aspect of high-level coaching that I don't think Archie has mastered yet is how to psychologically motivate individual players. For sure, DG seems like a particularly challenging case, but he's halfway through his senior year already. If he hasn't gotten it yet, it's probably not going to happen regardless of what types of punishments/rewards are meted out. 

I mean I’ve seen it work before on the college level. He doesn’t have anything to lose.

[macomb hoosier]

DG's attitude post-suspension last year was much better than pre-suspension. 2019-Post-suspension DG kept his man in front of him.

[CTrojan88]

11 hours ago, HoosierJax said:

Devonte only has one gear and thats Devonte gear...he is only concerned about how he looks out on the floor..he likes to have flare to his game...i mean the kid tried 5 times to make those one handed zip passes with flare and never completed one against Arkansas...all turnovers...thats a possible 10 pts..thats not counting the 3's he bricked up...if CAM is going to play him then you can figure him potentially costing the team about 12-16 pts a game..the sad part is he pretty much has to play him...i think he made him a captain hoping the responsibility would settle him a bit.

People keep saying that Archie has to play Devonte and Al...My question is: Why?  These kids are in college.  Anyone on the roster should be able to play 30-35 minutes each and every game.  They get a break every 4 minutes and only play 2 games a week.  If you only have 5-7 players that deserve to play then so be it.  The others would either step up or step out.  This scenario would currently apply to Al, Devonte and Smith.  They would either get on board or become spectators. There is absolutely no reason for them to get the minutes they are getting, let alone be starting.

[rico]

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

It’s just disappointing to not see more urgency out of Green and Davis when they’re seriously flirting with becoming the first 4-year IU players to never play in an NCAA Tournament. I know Davis has been hampered by injuries, I really get that, but when I watch those guys play I don’t see two guys playing with desperation to not make the kind of IU history that you’d want to avoid. 

Mind boggling info there.  TY

I looked up Green's career stats.  Thus far he has played in 102 games.  He has started 29.  As a frosh he started 2 and played 485 minutes.  I could go on but my point is that he has been a significant member of the rotation since he got here.  He has a shot at joining the 1,000 pt. club(784 career so far).  BGleas you brought the above up and I am trying to think of the worst 4 year rotational player I have seen at IU in my lifetime.  Right now I say it is Green.

As far as De'Ron, I write him down just like Grunwald.

[BADGERVOL]

42 minutes ago, rico said:

Mind boggling info there.  TY

I looked up Green's career stats.  Thus far he has played in 102 games.  He has started 29.  As a frosh he started 2 and played 485 minutes.  I could go on but my point is that he has been a significant member of the rotation since he got here.  He has a shot at joining the 1,000 pt. club(784 career so far).  BGleas you brought the above up and I am trying to think of the worst 4 year rotational player I have seen at IU in my lifetime.  Right now I say it is Green.

As far as De'Ron, I write him down just like Grunwald.

See those two tall guys over there waving? That’s Richard Mandeville and Robbie Eggars. They want to know if they can be considered.