Our offense

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Thats what i mean.,  I want guys running hard and as fast as they can to get from point a to point b.  I want the defense to be haggard by the end of the game chasing our guards.

I totally agree with you on that but at the end of the day the players still will have to make their shots.  Last night I never saw a team miss more  layups and 5 foot shots than what PU did last night.

[rico]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Thats what i mean.,  I want guys running hard and as fast as they can to get from point a to point b.  I want the defense to be haggard by the end of the game chasing our guards.

And I agree with that.  5 guys with purpose moving at the same time.  

[IowaHoosierFan]

Just now, IU Scott said:

I totally agree with you on that but at the end of the day the players still will have to make their shots.  Last night I never saw a team miss more  layups and 5 foot shots than what PU did last night.

don't disagree but it would be better than standing around the 3 like we do to miss shots anyways.  At least we might get some back door or pick and pop options then

[rico]

Just now, IowaHoosierFan said:

don't disagree but it would be better than standing around the 3 like we do to miss shots anyways.  At least we might get some back door or pick and pop options then

Amen bro...Amen

[Indy1987]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You see Archie all the time trying to get the guards to get the ball up the court faster.

Key word is try.  Why aren't they?  If he can't get them to do that one easy thing then we are in trouble.

Go Hoosiers!!!

[rico]

Just now, Indy1987 said:

Key word is try.  Why aren't they?  If he can't get them to do that one easy thing then we are in trouble.

Go Hoosiers!!!

And that is where that basketball IQ comes into play.

[Indy1987]

Just now, rico said:

And that is where that basketball IQ comes into play.

That or a coach holding his players accountable.   The bench is a coach's biggest motivator.

Go Hoosiers!!!

[IowaHoosierFan]

Just now, Indy1987 said:

That or a coach holding his players accountable.   The bench is a coach's biggest motivator.

Go Hoosiers!!!

Start from the end of the bnech and play up to the coach.  Might lose by 50 but it better not be because of heart and effort

[rico]

1 minute ago, Indy1987 said:

That or a coach holding his players accountable.   The bench is a coach's biggest motivator.

Go Hoosiers!!!

And all these years i thought running in practice was...Geez, learned something new today!  LOL

[JugRox]

45 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I don't know, for a team that can't shoot very well, we spend an awful lot of time with 4 guys moving around the perimeter looking for a 3.  What i would like to see is our guys running off screens on the baseline from one sideline to the other.  Curl around screen and come back thew way you came.  Back cut after back cut.  And have more than just 1 guy running of the screen.  lets have multiple guys moving to get open.

Its not hard to defend a team that can't shoot when all of them hang around the 3 point line.

 

That's probably more of a product of the other team's defense than the offense.

Not an expert by any stretch, but IMO.....

When we have 3 players that need to be in the paint to score (TJD, Brunk, Smith) and are little threat from the perimeter, the other team sags off, switches, and/or goes under screens. This forces our players to the perimeter (which is what the other team wants). So, you have a lot of guys on the perimeter waiting to get in the paint.

Watch the second half of the Arkansas game. They were basically playing a match up zone with all the switching and sagging off. Which shut down TJD who was killing them in the first half. It was a nice adjustment done by Musselman and probably won the game for them.

I have no problem with the goal of the offense to score in the paint....  my issue is spacing.

If the goal is to get the ball in the paint, why does it feel so crowded?? Multiple times it feels Smith, TJD, and Brunk just get in each others way. And this goes back to last year with Romeo and Morgan. You can't have players cutting into the paint when someone is trying to post there. Its just too easy to guard when you have no shooters.

When I watch Maryland, they had Smith in the paint with NO ONE around him. He was in total isolation and was given the space to operate. Same with Purdue and Haarms. Seems like when Purdue wants to give him the ball in the paint, he has the space.

These teams aren't playing zone (yet, I bet Northwestern does), heaven help us when they do.

Spread the floor as much as possible, get the ball in the paint, kick out if the double comes, or take the shot.

Screening isn't doing much right now because the other team doesn't need to help off on shooters.

 

[5fouls]

Ball handling and decision making are bigger detriments to the offense than shooting.  Poor execution on those things lead to turnovers and taking the wrong shot.

Devonte can shoot the ball.  Al can shoot the ball.  Rob can shoot the ball.  But, none of them can shoot well when throwing up wild crap at the end of the shot clock.

We do seriously lack a stretch big.  

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, JugRox said:

That's probably more of a product of the other team's defense than the offense.

Not an expert by any stretch, but IMO.....

When we have 3 players that need to be in the paint to score (TJD, Brunk, Smith) and are little threat from the perimeter, the other team sags off, switches, and/or goes under screens. This forces our players to the perimeter (which is what the other team wants). So, you have a lot of guys on the perimeter waiting to get in the paint standing on the perimeter.

Watch the second half of the Arkansas game. They were basically playing a match up zone with all the switching and sagging off. Which shut down TJD who was killing them in the first half. It was a nice adjustment done by Musselman and probably won the game for them.

I have no problem with the goal of the offense to score in the paint....  my issue is spacing.

If the goal is to get the ball in the paint, why does it feel so crowded?? Multiple times it feels Smith, TJD, and Brunk just get in each others way. And this goes back to last year with Romeo and Morgan. You can't have players cutting into the paint when someone is trying to post there. Its just too easy to guard when you have no shooters.

When I watch Maryland, the had Smith in the paint with NO ONE around him. He was in total isolation and was given the space to operate. Same with Purdue and Haarms. Seams like when Purdue wants to give him the ball in the paint, he has the space.

These teams are playing zone (yet, I bet Northwestern does), heaven help us when they do.

Spread the floor as much as possible, get the ball in the paint, kick out if the double comes, or take the shot.

Screening isn't doing much right now because the other team doesn't need to help off on shooters.

 

What has surprised me about PU this year is that they are playing Williams and Harms together.

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Ball handling and decision making are bigger detriments to the offense than shooting.  Poor execution on those things lead to turnovers and taking the wrong shot.

Devonte can shoot the ball.  Al can shoot the ball.  Rob can shoot the ball.  But, none of them can shoot well when throwing up wild crap at the end of the shot clock.

We do seriously lack a stretch big.  

Another main difference when I watch the really good teams than IU is that they play with confidence and our guys don't.

[JugRox]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What has surprised me about PU this year is that they are playing Williams and Harms together.

Its the EXACT same problem IU has with Brunk and TJD.

That's why you see Brunk and TJD out on the 3pt line with the ball, because the other one is trying to work in the post. Throw in Smith and its just too freaking crowded.

It would help a ton if Anderson, Hunter, or even Thomson could give us anything on offense to stretch the defense. And you can tell that's exactly what each of them are trying to do, but with little success. I think Anderson can do it, just needs a big shot of confidence. 

I think that's a big reason Miller keeps playing so many players, probably thinking that one of these kids has eventually got to break out.

[IowaHoosierFan]

23 minutes ago, JugRox said:

That's probably more of a product of the other team's defense than the offense.

Not an expert by any stretch, but IMO.....

When we have 3 players that need to be in the paint to score (TJD, Brunk, Smith) and are little threat from the perimeter, the other team sags off, switches, and/or goes under screens. This forces our players to the perimeter (which is what the other team wants). So, you have a lot of guys on the perimeter waiting to get in the paint.

Watch the second half of the Arkansas game. They were basically playing a match up zone with all the switching and sagging off. Which shut down TJD who was killing them in the first half. It was a nice adjustment done by Musselman and probably won the game for them.

I have no problem with the goal of the offense to score in the paint....  my issue is spacing.

If the goal is to get the ball in the paint, why does it feel so crowded?? Multiple times it feels Smith, TJD, and Brunk just get in each others way. And this goes back to last year with Romeo and Morgan. You can't have players cutting into the paint when someone is trying to post there. Its just too easy to guard when you have no shooters.

When I watch Maryland, they had Smith in the paint with NO ONE around him. He was in total isolation and was given the space to operate. Same with Purdue and Haarms. Seems like when Purdue wants to give him the ball in the paint, he has the space.

These teams aren't playing zone (yet, I bet Northwestern does), heaven help us when they do.

Spread the floor as much as possible, get the ball in the paint, kick out if the double comes, or take the shot.

Screening isn't doing much right now because the other team doesn't need to help off on shooters.

 

although i don't disagree, there is spacing adn then there is an offense with 3 or 4 guys standing stock still waiting for a pass to them.  Its not hard to defend that.  What is hard is when you send 2 guys through the paint jamming it up and then have a guard squirt out for an open shot.  If you don't require the defense to ever switch except at the top of the key, you're never going to get mismatches or open guys.  We're just not that hard to defend standing around.  Obviously i am not a coach and don't really know what i am talking about.  All this is based on my feeling and what i have seen over the years

[Hoosierhoopster]

37 minutes ago, JugRox said:

 

If the goal is to get the ball in the paint, why does it feel so crowded?? Multiple times it feels Smith, TJD, and Brunk just get in each others way. And this goes back to last year with Romeo and Morgan. You can't have players cutting into the paint when someone is trying to post there. Its just too easy to guard when you have no shooters.

***

Spread the floor as much as possible, get the ball in the paint, kick out if the double comes, or take the shot.

Screening isn't doing much right now because the other team doesn't need to help off on shooters.

 

You answered your own question. 

Flogging the dead horse, we need shooting and playmaking from the wing.

[ATX_sig]

I feel our half court offense is so geared to get the ball inside that they seem uncomfortable taking the perimeter shots.  Well, Green never met  a shot he didn't like.  Does IU run any plays to get an open 3 in the flow of the offense.  It seems we just pass the ball around the perimeter hoping to eventually get it inside and when that isn't available maybe someone will get an open look and take it or more often than not someone takes a bad rushed shot.  There seems to be not a whole of movement away from the ball. I don't think the IU shooters are all that great but I don't think they (RP, DG, Al, DA, and Hunter) can't be effective.  I am sure it isn't the case but like they don't practice 3 point plays. 

Also, when players drive the lane they try to make cute  passes when spacing is bad. Maybe Phin can pull it off but I'd rather Al, DG, and Smith just take it in there with a scorers mentality.   How many times has Smith gotten into the lane and tried to make a pass that turned out to be a turnover. The old Yogi play where he drove the lane and looked to be heading out of bounds then he would pass it to the corner looks pretty right now.

Anyway,  until RP gets back on track from his injury setbacks,   I think this offense will be ugly.  Al and DG should be scorers and we often  have to rely on them to run the offense.    

[IU Scott]

17 minutes ago, ATX_sig said:

I feel our half court offense is so geared to get the ball inside that they seem uncomfortable taking the perimeter shots.  Well, Green never met  a shot he didn't like.  Does IU run any plays to get an open 3 in the flow of the offense.  It seems we just pass the ball around the perimeter hoping to eventually get it inside and when that isn't available maybe someone will get an open look and take it or more often than not someone takes a bad rushed shot.  There seems to be not a whole of movement away from the ball. I don't think the IU shooters are all that great but I don't think they (RP, DG, Al, DA, and Hunter) can't be effective.  I am sure it isn't the case but like they don't practice 3 point plays. 

Also, when players drive the lane they try to make cute  passes when spacing is bad. Maybe Phin can pull it off but I'd rather Al, DG, and Smith just take it in there with a scorers mentality.   How many times has Smith gotten into the lane and tried to make a pass that turned out to be a turnover. The old Yogi play where he drove the lane and looked to be heading out of bounds then he would pass it to the corner looks pretty right now.

Anyway,  until RP gets back on track from his injury setbacks,   I think this offense will be ugly.  Al and DG should be scorers and we often  have to rely on them to run the offense.    

I think by going inside first they hope to throw the ball back out and swing it to the open guy.  As a shooter you need to be ready to shoot before you get the ball and you have to anticipate a pass ahead of getting the ball.  Also I don't think our guys are confident at all and to me shooting is way more mental than physical.  To me you have to recruit great shooters because I think Shooters are more born than made.  For some no matter how much you work at it you will never be a pure shooter.  I think you can work at it and take a bad shooter into a descent to good shooter but not to a great shooter.

[ATX_sig]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I think by going inside first they hope to throw the ball back out and swing it to the open guy.  As a shooter you need to be ready to shoot before you get the ball and you have to anticipate a pass ahead of getting the ball.  Also I don't think our guys are confident at all and to me shooting is way more mental than physical.  To me you have to recruit great shooters because I think Shooters are more born than made.  For some no matter how much you work at it you will never be a pure shooter.  I think you can work at it and take a bad shooter into a descent to good shooter but not to a great shooter.

Could be but I feel they want to go inside because that is their strength and they want to get to the FT line.  Defenses are taking that away now that the competition level has become tougher.  How often do they pass the ball back out and swing it when they get it inside.   Maybe they should bring the weave back. LOL.  I'd just prefer to get RP back on track.  When he's right the offense looks so much better. 

I don't know about born shooters vs made shooters. Seems pretty hyperbolic. Obviously there will be some who will never be a good shooter.   I don't disagree they should recruit great shooters but hard work goes a long way if your not so great.  

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, ATX_sig said:

Could be but I feel they want to go inside because that is their strength and they want to get to the FT line.  Defenses are taking that away now that the competition level has become tougher.  How often do they pass the ball back out and swing it when they get it inside.   Maybe they should bring the weave back. LOL.  I'd just prefer to get RP back on track.  When he's right the offense looks so much better. 

I don't know about born shooters vs made shooters. Seems pretty hyperbolic. Obviously there will be some who will never be a good shooter.   I don't disagree they should recruit great shooters but hard work goes a long way if your not so great.  

To me if they want to play two big's then one of them should be able to go out to at least 15 feet and hit those shots consistently.  If you dad that then you can play the high low with both big's since they would have to come out and guard the one big outside.  If not have 1 big and have them surround by 4 shooters and guys that can drive to the basket.

[IUguy]

I have not read the other comments here before posting.  My thoughts are:

1) Spend an entire practice doing nothing but having the guards and whoever else might take an outside shot doing nothing but shooting threes.  This team just has to get more confident and proficient from the outside or every opponent will just pack in the middle.  Once we prove we can hit some outside shots, and I believe our players have the ability with practice and confidence, the defenses will have to ease up and we will be able to get the ball inside easier so the offense can be truly multi-faceted.

2) Have the bigs and the guards use whatever practice time is left do nothing (else for the guards) but shoot free throws.  The team needs to be consistently over 70% and 75% for those who shoot the most FT's.

3) Be more careful on offense and stop committing so many TO's.

The defense, although it sometimes gets a bit loose, appears to be much better overall than in the past.

Now just take care of business, win the games, like Northwestern at home, that they should win, and make a competitive game out of all the rest, winning some and losing some.  No more 10 minute dry spells or falling behind anyone by 20 or 30 points.

[BGleas]

7 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I think by going inside first they hope to throw the ball back out and swing it to the open guy.  As a shooter you need to be ready to shoot before you get the ball and you have to anticipate a pass ahead of getting the ball.  Also I don't think our guys are confident at all and to me shooting is way more mental than physical.  To me you have to recruit great shooters because I think Shooters are more born than made.  For some no matter how much you work at it you will never be a pure shooter.  I think you can work at it and take a bad shooter into a descent to good shooter but not to a great shooter.

Archie literally said exactly this on his show tonight. They want the back to go inside first, then our guards /wings need to move to the open space, receive it kickout and swing for a quick ball reversal and that guy needs to be ready to shoot. Right now, we’re not making the right passes when the ball gets kicked out, guys aren’t ready to shoot, etc., etc.

[IU Scott]

Just now, BGleas said:

Archie literally said exactly this on his show tonight. They want the back to go inside first, then our guards /wings need to move to the open space, receive it kickout and swing for a quick ball reversal and that guy needs to be ready to shoot. Right now, we’re not making the right passes when the ball gets kicked out, guys aren’t ready to shoot, etc., etc.

That is why we need players with high basketball IQ's who can anticipate what is happening on the court.  It is about anticipation instead of reacting to things on the court.  

[ButlerHoosier]

I posted this in another thread but it fits well here too. Here are Archie's thoughts and it seems like he is saying what all of us are thinking. I honestly think it comes down to our poor guard play and it isn't going to change until we get high IQ guys in playing guard.

Here is the link:

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-archie-miller-believes-his-struggling-offense-needs-an-assist/

 

I guess my question from this article is...

Is it a personnel problem and to a lesser extent a philosophy problem? Cause it seems that we have intelligent bigs that can pass and kick it out in Brunk and Jackson-Davis. It seems from what Archis is saying though our guard play is atrocious. The reason for this is cause they are too much inside their own head and can't get out of their own way to allow the offense to flow. 

[tdhoosier]

I fear JH is not going to pull it together this season - I think this is just something we have to expect unfortunately. Those shots last night were BAD. Even the one that went in was BAD. And Damezi's shot is UGLY. The excuse for him is 'if it goes in, then it goes in'. But guess what? It aint going in! 

...These are our wings right now. And even if the ball moves like it should and shooters are set, I'm still not confident the shots from these guys are going to fall. 

So that leaves us with a line-up of three bigs that clog the middle; which is proving not to be effective OR playing 3 guards, which CAM really hasn't tried yet. Maybe (I'm hoping) this is because of Rob's conditioning. But for those 3 spots I think it's be interesting to see a rotation of Devonte, Al, Armon and Rob. 

Hopefully CAM saw the light yesterday and will follow through on shortening up his rotation. Not having a shooting threat at the 3 that will pull out the defense is just not going to work in Big Ten play. Opposing coaches know EXACTLY how to defend us and if these '3 big lineups' continue I think it will ultimately be our demise. Heck, look at what Northwestern did to us. Northwestern - who's one step above a HS varsity basketball team and starts a lacrosse player! CAM has to live with what we are lacking and modify to make this season salvageable. This may hinder our impressive rebounding numbers, but I think it's a sacrifice he needs to take. 

I really hope Leal can come in next year ready to sink 3's. And let's hope we can get a solid grad or JUCO transfer that can shoot and help with a few minutes at PG.