What program do you want to be?

[KoB2011]

Let's take a look back from when we fired Knight until now - what college program do you want us to be over that period? Why do you want us to be that program? How would you explain and justify the negatives that program has had over that time period?

To be clear, I'm asking for a real life answer, not a hypothetical. You can give more than once answer, but what I'm not looking for is combining multiple programs into a single answer. 

[IU Scott]

Going forward I want our program to be my ran like UVA and Villanova.  They build their team around players who stay 3 or 4 years so you can build a culture and recruit to that Culture.  I want guys who are interested in playing college basketball and not just for a stepping stone to professional basketball.

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Going forward I want our program to be my ran like UVA and Villanova.  They build their team around players who stay 3 or 4 years so you can build a culture and recruit to that Culture.  I want guys who are interested in playing college basketball and not just for a stepping stone to professional basketball.

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for a look back, since Knight's firing, which program(s) do you want us to be. 

I can definitely see Nova as answer, but UVA I'm struggling to see how this fanbase would deal with the first 15 or so years of that time period. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

North Carolina.  They are title contenders every few years and conference contenders on most year.  They do have an off year here and there but overall they have been consistent for the most part.  Now you can say they cheated and whatever but that is the kind of results i want from my IU teams as long as we're not overtly and blatantly cheating.  Gray is ok with me since everyone seem to be ok with it, including the NCAA.

Edited February 22, 2021 by IowaHoosierFan

[Feathery]

Before Duke went full 1 and done mode, I would say like Duke. UNC as stated above. Over the last decade Villanova and Gonzaga. 

[Brass Cannon]

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for a look back, since Knight's firing, which program(s) do you want us to be. 

I can definitely see Nova as answer, but UVA I'm struggling to see how this fanbase would deal with the first 15 or so years of that time period. 

If you are going to say we should give an answer because they haven’t had sustained success over the whole 21 years that really pigeon holes the topic. 

UVA or Wisconsin would also be my answer.  Built around getting older and building culture.   

 

[rico]

4 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Let's take a look back from when we fired Knight until now - what college program do you want us to be over that period? Why do you want us to be that program? How would you explain and justify the negatives that program has had over that time period?

To be clear, I'm asking for a real life answer, not a hypothetical. You can give more than once answer, but what I'm not looking for is combining multiple programs into a single answer. 

Michigan St.  Conference title contender every year.  National title contender more often than not every year.  

[Feathery]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Michigan St.  Conference title contender every year.  National title contender more often than not every year.  

I’ve felt that MSU is a conference contender but not nationally over the last 15 years or so.  Many of their final four appearances I think they over achieved to reach based on talent.  Which is a testament to Izzo and how good he is. He didn’t seem to have the horses to compete for a national title once they got to the final four since the Flintstones won it 20ish years ago. 

[rico]

1 minute ago, Feathery said:

I’ve felt that MSU is a conference contender but not nationally over the last 15 years or so.  Many of their final four appearances I think they over achieved to reach based on talent.  Which is a testament to Izzo and how good he is. He didn’t seem to have the horses to compete for a national title once they got to the final four since the Flintstones won it 20ish years ago. 

i would still take it.  I mean Knight only made 1 FF appearance after '87.

[hoosier_exotics]

UNC or Duke 

[IUCrazy2]

27 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

UNC or Duke 

I want to be one of the blue bloods.  UNC/Kansas/Kentucky.  People will freak out about the last 2 because of cheating or whatever, but I want those kind of results.  I know it would be hard to do that without doing the kinds of things those programs are accused of doing, but that would be results I would like to see.  They have all had down periods yes but after our last 20 years  I could deal with that with an NCAA championship, multiple Final Fours, and several other deep tournament runs sprinkled in.

We were a blue blood on par with those programs up until about the mid-90's.  Some things in the recruiting world changed and we did not keep pace.  Our HoF coach kept us treading water for a few years despite that and since his departure we have gone from being mentioned with those programs to being an also ran in our own conference.

I think this program has the ability to compete with those programs.  If we have to get a little bit edgy to do so, so be it.  Unenforced rules aren't rules.

Edited February 22, 2021 by IUCrazy2

[5fouls]

Montana State.  

[IUFLA]

26 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I want to be one of the blue bloods.  UNC/Kansas/Kentucky.  People will freak out about the last 2 because of cheating or whatever,

UNC had maybe the worst scandal of all during that time... academics...remember?

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, Feathery said:

I’ve felt that MSU is a conference contender but not nationally over the last 15 years or so.  Many of their final four appearances I think they over achieved to reach based on talent.  Which is a testament to Izzo and how good he is. He didn’t seem to have the horses to compete for a national title once they got to the final four since the Flintstones won it 20ish years ago. 

5 FFs since their championship in 2000. If you get there you've got a chance

That's why I would go with them too...

[IUCrazy2]

4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

UNC had maybe the worst scandal of all during that time... academics...remember?

I do, but if you are talking on court results...that is what I want to look like.

Really what I think you are attempting to do is say that any of the top programs have had a scandal at some point so we can't be them.  It is why you wanted to qualify that you can't have a combination of programs.  Over a 20 year period every program will have its flaws.

Yeah, the UNC cheating scandal sucked but what came of it?  UNC is still considered a better school than Indiana and they still have a better b-ball program.  So academics and sports, besides the worst academic scandal, they are still head and shoulders above us.

I would rather be UNC with the cheating scandal then the garbage we have been over the past 20 years.  We had a scandal of our own and at least they win.

[rico]

14 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I do, but if you are talking on court results...that is what I want to look like.

Really what I think you are attempting to do is say that any of the top programs have had a scandal at some point so we can't be them.  It is why you wanted to qualify that you can't have a combination of programs.  Over a 20 year period every program will have its flaws.

Yeah, the UNC cheating scandal sucked but what came of it?  UNC is still considered a better school than Indiana and they still have a better b-ball program.  So academics and sports, besides the worst academic scandal, they are still head and shoulders above us.

I would rather be UNC with the cheating scandal then the garbage we have been over the past 20 years.  We had a scandal of our own and at least they win.

Meh.  Sparty has been more stable over the last 21 years than UNC.  

[Feathery]

27 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

5 FFs since their championship in 2000. If you get there you've got a chance

That's why I would go with them too...

Absolutely. I’d take that success in a heartbeat. I think Izzo just does more with less in terms of overall talent compared to guys like Coach K. 

[cybergates]

Duke. 3 titles during that time and no (major) scandal/sanctions. Plenty of smoke but at least no fire like UNC and Kansas and more success than fUK. If Duke was my team I could get away with rooting for players I've hated since they were on my team. 

This question and answer makes me sad. Over the past few years I've come to the realization that sports are a source of unnecessary misery for most people since only one fanbase out of hundreds in NCAA basketball (32 in NFL, 30 in NBA, etc.) ends the season with a championship. So unless you are a bandwagon fan that jumps to the best team(s) all the time, your season ends somewhere between disappointment/heartbreak and optimism for the future. 

[IUCrazy2]

12 minutes ago, rico said:

Meh.  Sparty has been more stable over the last 21 years than UNC.  

North Carolina has 3 National Championships  (2005, 2009, 2017) over that 20 year span.  That matches the Knight era from that standpoint.  Sweet 16 appearances over 20 years?  10.  Elite eight appearances since Knight was let go?  8.  Final Four appearances?  5.  That is way better than MSU.  And Sparty has a massive sexual assault issue endemic to their entire Athletic Department during that same timeframe.

 

[Bowhunter]

I want to be Kansas without the cheating.

Vilanova with a legit big man. 
 

I want to score like Duke and Michigan and defend like Texas tech and Virginia.

 

[rico]

11 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

North Carolina has 3 National Championships  (2005, 2009, 2017) over that 20 year span.  That matches the Knight era from that standpoint.  Sweet 16 appearances over 20 years?  10.  Elite eight appearances since Knight was let go?  8.  Final Four appearances?  5.  That is way better than MSU.  And Sparty has a massive sexual assault issue endemic to their entire Athletic Department during that same timeframe.

 

UNC discredited their academic program.  These are supposed to be schools of higher learning.  I look at that a little differently than sexual predators operating at an institution.

[IUCrazy2]

4 minutes ago, rico said:

UNC discredited their academic program.  These are supposed to be schools of higher learning.  I look at that a little differently than sexual predators operating at an institution.

I am not rushing to defend them, but I take discrediting academics for basically fake students that has had no discernable impact on how your university is viewed.  They were ranked #5 for top public schools and universities.  They were #28 in national universities.  (Indiana was tied for #76)  Heck, I saw a ranking where they were rated #3 for best schools for student athletes.

So yes, that scandal was a bad look but it does not seem to have impacted anything.

But if you wanted to take a holistic look at Indiana, for all their desire to focus on academics and deemphasize athletics.  We are in the bottom third of academic rankings in the Big Ten.  We don't do that well.  Our flagship athletic program has been in the bottom half of the conference quite often.  Our football program, despite the good Allen has done there as of late, is still towards the bottom of the conference since 2000.

If we are being realistic, Indiana just does not strive for excellence in much of anything.  But we got guys like Pat Shoukders who are supposed to be leading the institution as a Trustee sit in his position for 20 years.  Florida rode their athletic success and built an academic institution around it.  The people running our admin take a big thing that we were known for and burned it to the ground.  They've made the athletic program a negative and they haven't done anything to really improve the academic ranking.

So, as an IU alum.  I would take UNC's 3 NCAA titles and #28 National ranking as an academic institution (a ranking that includes Ivy League schools) and even add in the academic scandal and I think when you roll all that together it is still better than Indiana.  I like IU, so I think that sucks and I want IU to be better.  I would like those results without the academic scandal but even with the scandal, it is hard to argue that Indiana is in a better position than UNC.

[rico]

10 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I am not rushing to defend them, but I take discrediting academics for basically fake students that has had no discernable impact on how your university is viewed.  They were ranked #5 for top public schools and universities.  They were #28 in national universities.  (Indiana was tied for #76)  Heck, I saw a ranking where they were rated #3 for best schools for student athletes.

So yes, that scandal was a bad look but it does not seem to have impacted anything.

But if you wanted to take a holistic look at Indiana, for all their desire to focus on academics and deemphasize athletics.  We are in the bottom third of academic rankings in the Big Ten.  We don't do that well.  Our flagship athletic program has been in the bottom half of the conference quite often.  Our football program, despite the good Allen has done there as of late, is still towards the bottom of the conference since 2000.

If we are being realistic, Indiana just does not strive for excellence in much of anything.  But we got guys like Pat Shoukders who are supposed to be leading the institution as a Trustee sit in his position for 20 years.  Florida rode their athletic success and built an academic institution around it.  The people running our admin take a big thing that we were known for and burned it to the ground.  They've made the athletic program a negative and they haven't done anything to really improve the academic ranking.

So, as an IU alum.  I would take UNC's 3 NCAA titles and #28 National ranking as an academic institution (a ranking that includes Ivy League schools) and even add in the academic scandal and I think when you roll all that together it is still better than Indiana.  I like IU, so I think that sucks and I want IU to be better.  I would like those results without the academic scandal but even with the scandal, it is hard to argue that Indiana is in a better position than UNC.

Fair enough, can't argue, and I still pick Michigan St.

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, rico said:

Fair enough, can't argue, and I still pick Michigan St.

Fair enough.  I would pick them over Indiana's record as well.

It is really all subjective anyway.

[IowaHoosierFan]

10 minutes ago, rico said:

Fair enough, can't argue, and I still pick Michigan St.

I would take UNC and the academic scandal over MSU and the sexual assault/rape culture scandal they have going on.

both have had great on court results if you only look at the results.