Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[Steubenhoosier]

6 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

I keep reading "we have way too much talent..." and also "we have the worst backcourt in the Big Ten". So it's one or the other.

Unfortunately we have not had our full team intact since the Harvard game. That fact seems to be ignored by many here

[IndyResident16]

10 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I’ve fallen asleep mid-game multiple times and missed others altogether.  For someone like me, this is unheard of.  

My schedule used to revolve around IU games. I’ve voluntarily chosen not to watch a few this year. Outside the two games in the Garden I attended, haven’t seen them play in person once. Not worth the time or effort.

[SawatchHoosier]

16 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I’ve fallen asleep mid-game multiple times and missed others altogether.  For someone like me, this is unheard of.  

I'm actually jealous of this super power.

[BADGERVOL]

I’ve missed so many games this year half of the time forgetting and half the time wanting to watch a movie or pet my dogs rather then watch a game I get stressed about 😂 

[tdhoosier]

17 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Unfortunately we have not had our full team intact since the Harvard game. That fact seems to be ignored by many here

I don’t think anybody is ignoring that - I just don’t think it’s an excuse. Injuries are reality in sports. A ton of other teams are competing right now without full rosters. The last 5 years we’ve had long stretches without a full team. We always have injuries, which again, is why we should’ve never gone into this season so thin in the back court.

Mike Woodson uttering that same excuse early in the week, just got me more angry. Haha. I wanted to yell: then prepare for injuries because they are almost inevitable!

[Indykev]

3 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Do you know that as a fact, or is this just your opinion? If the latter, please state that 

Said by a former trustee that is no longer with us. Has that changed? Maybe, but not by the hires we have had over the years in both football and basketball.

[Indykev]

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Unfortunately we have not had our full team intact since the Harvard game. That fact seems to be ignored by many here

Like every year. next man up if you are a good team, which this is not.

[Indykev]

14.7!!

[MSHoosier]

3 hours ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

I keep reading "we have way too much talent..." and also "we have the worst backcourt in the Big Ten". So it's one or the other.

To me, our guards are too talented and (in some instances) too experienced to be the worst backcourt, the concepts coexist.

[IowaHoosierFan]

20 hours ago, Maedhros said:

Gotta just keep firing coaches. If you cut a guy loose the first time he falls, eventually you'll end up with a coach who never fails. That's just science. Running a college athletic department is just a game of roulette. Spin to win, baby!

I don't want to keep firing coaches either.  But would you have kept Davis, Crean or Miller?  How many coaches did we have a shot at by giving the job to Coach Davis or by keeping coach Crean too long? I am no advocating for coach Woodson being fired.  But i am also not willing to accept mediocrity from the team or coaching staff.  If you honestly believe that Coach Woodson is going to change how he recruits, structures his roster, runs his offense/defense then by all mean ask to keep the coach for as long as possible.  We're stuck in a shitty situation where you don't want to have another coach but we also can't keep on as we are.

[ledies22]

I have a lot of catching up to do from the weekend. 

But I am on board. You cant lose to to PSU at home by 14. The loss isn't as big as the 14.

I will not say Woody failed, or was a failure. It's just time to move on.

[Courtsensetwo]

Injuries have taken a toll on us for the last several seasons, and this year is no exception. With a healthy team, we would very likely be atop the Big Ten today.

I like Scott a great deal, he has my complete confidence, and I believe he is well suited for his position. He boldly assembled the resources to get Brad Stevens and nearly accomplished that mission, as only a few of us truly realize. He’s also shown a willingness to move on coaches when many did not think he would (Miller and Allen), so I wouldn’t be surprised if he lets Michael go, unless he elects to keep him. 

[Maedhros]

11 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I don't want to keep firing coaches either.  But would you have kept Davis, Crean or Miller?  How many coaches did we have a shot at by giving the job to Coach Davis or by keeping coach Crean too long? 

When do you fire Crean?

• Surely not after the first two years, when he had to start a roster from scratch without the portal and immediate eligibility.
• Year three showed real progress, back in the top 100 on KenPem, the win over ranked Illinois, and Cody Zeller committed for the upcoming class.
• The next two years were the best Indiana team since the Cheaney years.
• So those guys leave and your next team can't shoot, but you're bringing in James Blackmon and Robert Johnson.
• Then Fischer and Vonleh leave and that team has no size, but still gets back to the Tournament and you're bringing in Bryant, Morgan and Anunoby.
• You win the Big Ten again, with a new roster than before, and knock off Kentucky in the Tournament.
• Then just one down season later Crean is fired, with a team that finished 44 in KenPom, better than any Archie team except the one in '20 that didn't have to take two losses in the postseason, and better than two of Woodson's three teams thus far.

That guy was on the hot seat the majority of his tenure here. Grumbling about his job started at least in year three, and basically continued except for the Zeller years and for a few months in '16. Probably those same voices are envious of how Painter has it rolling at Purdue right now, yet Painter accomplished less in his first nine years than Crean did.

Davis bought some time with the 2002 run, but was perpetually on the hot seat thereafter. Some of that is unstandable, being the natural consequence of following a legend. Some of that is because by his own admission Davis was in over his head.

Bob Knight had down years too. In the post Knight era, we've had two season where we started out ranked top 15 in the preason and were unranked in the final poll. Those were the years Sampson and Crean were fired. Bob Knight had six of those seasons (79, 82, 85, 88, 90, 95). Obviously he did some great stuff in between. But even after peaking with some incredible squads, he too fell into valleys before he could reload. And Knight is at worst one of the top five coaches in the history of the sport. 

I wasn't an Indiana basketball fan until I arrived in Bloomington as a freshman for the '01-'02 season. Bob Knight had already been fired, made possible only because fans were grumpy after six seasons of not seeing the second weekend. It's been a generation now, and but for a handful of season's I can count on one hand, this fan base has been calling for their coach to be fired ever since. It's all I've ever known, and it's getting exhausting. 

[HoosierBrit64]

I’m not sure where to put this, but since quite a few posts here have pointed out that we have too much talent to get beat by PSU at home, I figured I’d post a comment here. Because no, we don’t have too much talent not to get beat by PSU at home. We have a really nice front court lineup. That’s it. Our backcourt would be average at best in the MAC. First, none of them can shoot, or will shoot (Cupps). I like Leal but he’s an average, spot up shooting backup. And other than being hardworking, can someone please explain all the love for Gallo on this board? That dude gets beat off the dribble more than I drink bourbon. And I love to drink bourbon! He can’t shoot, and I’m sorry but he does not play good defense. He simply doesn’t. He tries, but running around out of control is not good defense. We get beat by guards every game. Our guards can’t stop a dribble drive and are out of position on 3s not because of scheme, but because they’re SLOW. Watch other teams’ guards step over screens and beat their guy to spots. Ours don’t because they can’t. Because they’re SLOW. Add to that, none of our guards are leaders. If we had one leader at a guard spot and just two quick guards on this roster that were average shooters, this is a different season. We do have one but he’s a freshman who is out all season due to injury. Where’s the other? That’s a Woody responsibility for lack of recruiting one. We have a front court as good as anyone, if they had help from even an average backcourt. But they don’t have any help. 

[tdhoosier]

37 minutes ago, Courtsensetwo said:

With a healthy team, we would very likely be atop the Big Ten today.

Obviously we can not see what would happen in an injury-free parallel universe, but this team has not played well with a full roster either.

The problem with these hypotheticals is that it should apply to our opponents too. Would we have beaten PSU with XJ? Possibly, but if we're getting XJ back, I'd think it's only fair for PSU to give back their leading scorer who was also on the bench with an injury. 

We didn't have Ware for the IL game, but they just got back Shannon was still shaking off the rest. 

Or would we still have beaten Michigan when they were short-handed? 

It just opens a whole can of worms. 

 

 

[IndyResident16]

48 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

When do you fire Crean?

• Surely not after the first two years, when he had to start a roster from scratch without the portal and immediate eligibility.
• Year three showed real progress, back in the top 100 on KenPem, the win over ranked Illinois, and Cody Zeller committed for the upcoming class.
• The next two years were the best Indiana team since the Cheaney years.
• So those guys leave and your next team can't shoot, but you're bringing in James Blackmon and Robert Johnson.
• Then Fischer and Vonleh leave and that team has no size, but still gets back to the Tournament and you're bringing in Bryant, Morgan and Anunoby.
• You win the Big Ten again, with a new roster than before, and knock off Kentucky in the Tournament.
• Then just one down season later Crean is fired, with a team that finished 44 in KenPom, better than any Archie team except the one in '20 that didn't have to take two losses in the postseason, and better than two of Woodson's three teams thus far.

That guy was on the hot seat the majority of his tenure here. Grumbling about his job started at least in year three, and basically continued except for the Zeller years and for a few months in '16. Probably those same voices are envious of how Painter has it rolling at Purdue right now, yet Painter accomplished less in his first nine years than Crean did.

Davis bought some time with the 2002 run, but was perpetually on the hot seat thereafter. Some of that is unstandable, being the natural consequence of following a legend. Some of that is because by his own admission Davis was in over his head.

Bob Knight had down years too. In the post Knight era, we've had two season where we started out ranked top 15 in the preason and were unranked in the final poll. Those were the years Sampson and Crean were fired. Bob Knight had six of those seasons (79, 82, 85, 88, 90, 95). Obviously he did some great stuff in between. But even after peaking with some incredible squads, he too fell into valleys before he could reload. And Knight is at worst one of the top five coaches in the history of the sport. 

I wasn't an Indiana basketball fan until I arrived in Bloomington as a freshman for the '01-'02 season. Bob Knight had already been fired, made possible only because fans were grumpy after six seasons of not seeing the second weekend. It's been a generation now, and but for a handful of season's I can count on one hand, this fan base has been calling for their coach to be fired ever since. It's all I've ever known, and it's getting exhausting. 

I had serious concerns about Crean after year 2. Year 1 was understandable, but year 2 IU lost 11 straight games (9 by double-digits) before winning the finale against NW in OT. Year 3 the team quit on him again as they lost their last 9 games of the year. Obviously the Zeller commitment was huge and IU played like a worthy team years 4 and 5, but the ending of that Syracuse game was the nail in the coffin for me. Went 17-15 in year 6 with another missed tourney and he limped into the tournament as a 10 seed in year 7. 

I think firing him after year 3 the way the season ended would have been justified but they absolutely should have pulled the plug after year 6. 

Edited February 5 by IndyResident16

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

 

I think firing him after year 3 the way the season ended would have been justified but they absolutely should have pulled the plug after year 6. 

Yikes. 

Crean inherited almost nothing. He was playing walk-ons and Freshmen. Back then there was no penalty free transfers. I believe this applied to grad-transfers too in 2008.

Could you imagine a team right now lead by Cupps, CJ and Banks? because that's what it was like with VJIII, Pritchard and Danny Moore. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of stipulation in CTC's contract that he deserved a minimum of 4 years to make that team competitive. 

[Jackson Kellogs]

Give me Josh Schertz from Indiana State. Hire him this offseason. 

[IndyResident16]

7 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Yikes. 

Crean inherited almost nothing. He was playing walk-ons and Freshmen. Back then there was no penalty free transfers. I believe this applied to grad-transfers too in 2008.

Could you imagine a team right now lead by Cupps, CJ and Banks? because that's what it was like with VJIII, Pritchard and Danny Moore. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of stipulation in CTC's contract that he deserved a minimum of 4 years to make that team competitive. 

He wasn't during year 3.

Typically during the rebuilding process you look for other things such as player development, in-game adjustments, how players respond to adversity, etc.

IU was a talented albeit young team during year 3 of the Crean era, but that team absolutely quit. You almost have to try and lose 9 games in a row unless that is of course you've lost the locker room which I absolutely believed to be the case for that Crean team. Going 3-15 in the B10 in your 3rd year is unacceptable, especially considering the B10 wasn't all that great during the 10-11 season. 

[Indykev]

1 hour ago, Courtsensetwo said:

Injuries have taken a toll on us for the last several seasons, and this year is no exception. With a healthy team, we would very likely be atop the Big Ten today.

I like Scott a great deal, he has my complete confidence, and I believe he is well suited for his position. He boldly assembled the resources to get Brad Stevens and nearly accomplished that mission, as only a few of us truly realize. He’s also shown a willingness to move on coaches when many did not think he would (Miller and Allen), so I wouldn’t be surprised if he lets Michael go, unless he elects to keep him. 

yeah right,,,and if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

[Maedhros]

Love to make a post about Indiana fans wanting to fire their coach at the first sign of failure, then have that point illustrated to perfection. Chef's kiss.

[IndyResident16]

9 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Love to make a post about Indiana fans wanting to fire their coach at the first sign of failure, then have that point illustrated to perfection. Chef's kiss.

Guys who aren't qualified to coach here in the first place should have the shortest of leashes. 

[Kdug]

1 hour ago, Courtsensetwo said:

Injuries have taken a toll on us for the last several seasons, and this year is no exception. With a healthy team, we would very likely be atop the Big Ten today.

I like Scott a great deal, he has my complete confidence, and I believe he is well suited for his position. He boldly assembled the resources to get Brad Stevens and nearly accomplished that mission, as only a few of us truly realize. He’s also shown a willingness to move on coaches when many did not think he would (Miller and Allen), so I wouldn’t be surprised if he lets Michael go, unless he elects to keep him. 

Most teams deal with injuries, and we have looked just as bad when healthy. Heck, the first exhibition game of the season we struggled for 25-30 minutes against a D2 team.

With a healthy team I don’t think we’d be any different. The only person to miss significant time has been XJ, and we still looked very bad at the beginning of the year before he got hurt.

I don’t see how there’s any argument that we’d be a top big ten team when healthy, when we haven’t looked like that at any point this year. Top big ten teams don’t struggle against Army, FGCU, and Louisville.

[HoosierDom]

This season has been rough. To me, our record is such that I would love it if we put our feelers to see if we could get a top guy, but I would be reluctant to just fire Woodson without a plan in place. What makes me want to fire Woodson is they way we lose: the margin certainly matters a lot, but the many things we do wrong is what puts me over the top.

- The number of complete defensive breakdowns in beyond unacceptable. Guys don't know what they're doing. On of our guys having to push someone to where they should be seems to happen multiply times a game. How many times has Hummel been shocked at how open we leave an opposing player? It's better than it was early in the year, but it's still really bad.

- The rebounding. I think there are a lot of lineup constructions that can lead to success. Woodson clearly favors bigs and interior play. It goes against the trend in basketball, it probably wouldn't be my choice, but that's okay, it's not objectively wrong. But, how do we play such a big lineup and get outrebounded every time? How have we not learned to box-out? We have a great rebounder in the paint, had one last year, too. Still, we do an awful job rebounding.

- How many double digit leads have we given up this year? To me, that speaks to our guy getting out-coached. Other teams can adjust and we can't. Why do we go to the bench everytime we get up early? If a guy gets in foul trouble, there's a reasonable discussion to be had as to how long you let him play. Reasonable people can disagree. But, if you just built a 10 point lead in the first 10 minutes of play, why do Cupp, Gunn, Banks and Walker have to come in? How many leads to we have to give away before we just ride the guys who build the lead?

Edit to add: why do we switch so often? Again, there are times where a good coach can be okay with it, but we don't even make the other team earn the mismatch, we just give it away when ever they want it.

Edited February 5 by HoosierDom

[Kdug]

55 minutes ago, HoosierBrit64 said:

I’m not sure where to put this, but since quite a few posts here have pointed out that we have too much talent to get beat by PSU at home, I figured I’d post a comment here. Because no, we don’t have too much talent not to get beat by PSU at home. We have a really nice front court lineup. That’s it. Our backcourt would be average at best in the MAC. First, none of them can shoot, or will shoot (Cupps). I like Leal but he’s an average, spot up shooting backup. And other than being hardworking, can someone please explain all the love for Gallo on this board? That dude gets beat off the dribble more than I drink bourbon. And I love to drink bourbon! He can’t shoot, and I’m sorry but he does not play good defense. He simply doesn’t. He tries, but running around out of control is not good defense. We get beat by guards every game. Our guards can’t stop a dribble drive and are out of position on 3s not because of scheme, but because they’re SLOW. Watch other teams’ guards step over screens and beat their guy to spots. Ours don’t because they can’t. Because they’re SLOW. Add to that, none of our guards are leaders. If we had one leader at a guard spot and just two quick guards on this roster that were average shooters, this is a different season. We do have one but he’s a freshman who is out all season due to injury. Where’s the other? That’s a Woody responsibility for lack of recruiting one. We have a front court as good as anyone, if they had help from even an average backcourt. But they don’t have any help. 

But we do have enough talent to beat a Penn State team at home without their best player. That’s what makes the last game so frustrating, the bar was incredibly low, and we missed it by a mile.