IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 2 minutes ago, Feathery said: Crean had a good group of young players in Hulls, Watford, Jones, Creek, Vic, and Sheehey. Then won 27 games in year 4. Be built on recruiting class after recruiting class. Fans could see trajectory was there to be good. Then when Zeller stayed it was a great year. I was a Crean supporter until it was clear he had lost the state and recruiting became a mess. He never recovered and a change was needed. Glass just chose to hire the wrong coach in Miller. Not his first year he didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feathery Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 8 minutes ago, IUFLA said: A little bit more than a double standard based on the results, wouldn't you say? No one is denying Pearl can coach...But he's not exactly the moral standard bearer when it comes to college basketball... The standard for Iu Basketball most will say is Knight. He is hardly a bastion of purity or moral standards. Pearl has issues in his past. But I’m not someone who thinks you need to hire a saint to be a basketball coach. Hire someone who can win. I thought the university should have backed Sampson over the phone calls. Now the drugs that’s different. But to win, nobody is squeaky clean and it’s a standard that is not attainable. There isn’t a person in the planet that is righteous, not one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feathery Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Just now, IUFLA said: Not his first year he didn't... Ok? I guess I’m missing your point. I didn’t see anyone saying fire Crean after year 1. Nobody said fire Woody after year 1 either. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 13 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Interesting take...Pearl didn't have any real success at Auburn until around 2017...Here's that roster... He went from having 1 RSCI top 100 kid to 5...and his top 3 players were all freshman... So I wonder...What would be the allure of playing basketball at Auburn? History? No...The Cliff Ellis years were ok, but other than that, nothing... OH! Maybe Pearl met them in "Person?" Pearl got hired in March of 2014, couldn't recruit for 5 more months. So that 2015 roster is hard to put on him. Because he couldn't recruit until a month before signing day, kinda hard to expect him to land many freshman that would be able to play in 2016. So it stands to reason the first time he'd have any semblance of talent would be Year 3, in 2017.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feathery Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 16 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Interesting take...Pearl didn't have any real success at Auburn until around 2017...Here's that roster... He went from having 1 RSCI top 100 kid to 5...and his top 3 players were all freshman... So I wonder...What would be the allure of playing basketball at Auburn? History? No...The Cliff Ellis years were ok, but other than that, nothing... OH! Maybe Pearl met them in "Person?" You’re barking up the wrong tree to me. I’ve long been a proponent of paying players, even before NIL. And the US Supreme Court agrees and it is illegal for the NCAA to enforce their rules as previously. So who is more morally bankrupt the NCAA or the coaches who were caught on tape paying players? One was breaking a rule that if challenged would have been found illegal. Hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 2 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: Again, those are two different arguments. First of all, I don't think the fact that AU gave Pearl a 4th year has any bearing on what IU ought to do. The situations are totally different in terms of program history, the state of the programs when Pearl/Woodson took over, the coaches' respective track records, and the recruiting momentum or lack thereof. For instance, if Woodson had signed Boogie Fland and Derik Queen, along with McNeeley, for next season, then I think he'd be facing much less pressure here (although not zero, given how poorly his team has performed this year). As for the moral issue, I don't think anyone is contending that Pearl is squeaky clean. But the things he's been penalized for were either ludicrous violations at the time (hosting a recruit at a BBQ), or allegations of conduct that is now perfectly legal under the rules (Person stuff), and which most major schools were already doing themselves (including IU, at least according to some). If you think the moral issues are disqualifying, then so be it, reasonable minds can certainly disagree on that. But I really don't understand what relevance Pearl's record his first three years at AU have on IU and Woodson. It's completely apples to oranges. It was a simple question...Would ANY coach have survived with that record at IU...I think we all know the answer... You need to watch this video then determine for yourself if Scott Dolson would trade Mike Woodson and Bruce Pearl... I realize that this video was after Woody's first year, but "sticking with the plan" and "no timetable for success" are kinda the root of Scott Dolson as an AD...He cut his teeth under Knight, and I think he understands that every coach...Every coach, can have a year where things don't go as planned...He was a manager on the 85 team, so it's not like he's never seen IU finish under .500 in Big 10 play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) 12 minutes ago, IUFLA said: It was a simple question...Would ANY coach have survived with that record at IU...I think we all know the answer... You need to watch this video then determine for yourself if Scott Dolson would trade Mike Woodson and Bruce Pearl... I realize that this video was after Woody's first year, but "sticking with the plan" and "no timetable for success" are kinda the root of Scott Dolson as an AD...He cut his teeth under Knight, and I think he understands that every coach...Every coach, can have a year where things don't go as planned...He was a manager on the 85 team, so it's not like he's never seen IU finish under .500 in Big 10 play... I respect your opinion, but it just feels like you are flailing on this one. Again, who cares whether IU would have made the same decision as AU? You are basically arguing that because IU's top replacement for Woodson received a 4th year under different circumstances, IU shouldn't hire him now. Respectfully, that doesn't really make any sense. Now if you think Woodson deserves a 4th year, that's fine, argue that on its merits. Pearl's record after 3 years is irrelevant to Woodson's case, though, unless you're saying Pearl is not as good a coach as Woody based on his first three years at AU (which I don't think is what you're arguing). Edited March 4 by IUProfessor 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Just now, IUProfessor said: I respect your opinion, but it just feels like you are flailing on this one. Again, who cares whether IU would have made the same decision as AU? You are basically arguing that because IU's top replacement for Woodson received a 4th year under different circumstances, IU shouldn't hire him now. Respectfully, that doesn't really make any sense. Now if you think Woodson deserves a 4th year, that's fine, argue that on its merits. Pearl's record after 3 years is irrelevant, though, unless you're saying he's not a good coach (which, you've made clear, is not what you're arguing). Not "flailing" at all...It was case in point that ALL coaches can and do struggle at times... Pearl's first 3 years shows that's true in his case as well...In addition look at 2020-21...13-14 and 7-11...So to say we'd can Mike Woodson over this year, and have "sure thing" Bruce Pearl take over is nuts to me...That's the point of debate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Interesting take...Pearl didn't have any real success at Auburn until around 2017...Here's that roster... He went from having 1 RSCI top 100 kid to 5...and his top 3 players were all freshman... So I wonder...What would be the allure of playing basketball at Auburn? History? No...The Cliff Ellis years were ok, but other than that, nothing... OH! Maybe Pearl met them in "Person?" Pearl hasn’t exactly had a roster full of nba studs. Imo Pearl has done a fabulous job of getting, coaching, and developing guys in that 30-100 range. It takes some time to make inroads but everywhere he has been he wins games. He usually has very active, quick, and good shooting guards, and long/athletic bigs at the rim. I think he could build a good program here because I don’t think it is fair to think we are going to live in that top 25 range of players Woody seems to want to target…give me those hungry hard playing 30-100 guys but develop them and throw in an occasional 5*. I like the brand he plays and I like the effort his teams come with. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Not "flailing" at all...It was case in point that ALL coaches can and do struggle at times... Pearl's first 3 years shows that's true in his case as well...In addition look at 2020-21...13-14 and 7-11...So to say we'd can Mike Woodson over this year, and have "sure thing" Bruce Pearl take over is nuts to me...That's the point of debate... That's fair (although I disagree given Pearl's overall track record, and the weirdness of that COVID year for any number of programs). But again, that's different than arguing that Auburn gave Pearl a 4th year but IU "wouldn't have" -- which is irrelevant, and factually not necessarily correct for the reasons pointed out above -- and therefore on that basis that IU shouldn't fire Woodson to hire Pearl. That latter argument doesn't make any sense. Edited March 4 by IUProfessor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Just now, IUProfessor said: That's fair (although I disagree given Pearl's overall track record, and the weirdness of that COVID for any number of programs). But again, that's different than arguing that Auburn gave Pearl a 4th year but IU "wouldn't have" -- which is irrelevant, and factually not necessarily correct for the reasons pointed out above -- and therefore on that basis that IU shouldn't fire Woodson to hire Pearl. That latter argument doesn't make any sense. Again, not the point of contention...Pearl can struggle just like any other coach... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) 8 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Again, not the point of contention...Pearl can struggle just like any other coach... You are arguing that it would be a double standard on IU's part. So that is, apparently, the point of contention. Now if you are shifting to an argument about how sure a thing Pearl is, then again, reasonable minds can disagree. I would agree that given the state of the roster, recruiting class, and impending departures, it's entirely possible Pearl would under perform the first year. But to suggest that because his Auburn stint featured a slow build that the same would be true here again overlooks a variety of relevant factors (the historic state of the programs, the circumstances under which he would be assuming the two respective jobs, the advent of the portal and NIL, recruiting base, etc.). So I think any objective observer would have to agree that the odds that Pearl's first 3 years at IU would mirror his first 3 at Auburn (as conveniently opposed to his tenure at USI, UW-Milwaukee, or Tennessee) are slim at best -- probably under 5-10%. Edited March 4 by IUProfessor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlboiler23 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 17 hours ago, IU Scott said: Our old friend Stuben has reappeared over on BTB and is having trouble making friends over there. He is doing the same over there that he did here to get banned. He is trying to tell everyone how to think and how stupid they are if they don't agree with him. He is pretty much the only one over there defending Woodson. Did he legit get banned here? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Just now, IUProfessor said: You are arguing that it would be a double standard on IU's part. So that is, apparently, the point of contention. Now if you are shifting to an argument about how sure a thing Pearl is, then again, reasonable minds can disagree. I would agree that given the state of the roster, recruiting class, and impending departures, it's entirely possible Pearl would under perform the first year. But to suggest that because his Aubrun stint featured a slow build that the same would be true here again overlooks a variety of relevant factors (the historic state of the programs, the circumstances under which he would be assuming the two respective jobs, the portal NIL, recruiting base, etc.). So I think any objective observer would have to agree that the odds that Pearl's first 3 years at IU would mirror his first 3 at Auburn (but not USI, UW-Milwaukee, or Tennessee) are slim at best -- probably under 5-10%. No, I'm arguing that the struggle that Woody and this IU team has experienced this year happens to even the best coaches...Do you agree or disagree with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue3542 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 33 minutes ago, Feathery said: The standard for Iu Basketball most will say is Knight. He is hardly a bastion of purity or moral standards. Pearl has issues in his past. But I’m not someone who thinks you need to hire a saint to be a basketball coach. Hire someone who can win. I thought the university should have backed Sampson over the phone calls. Now the drugs that’s different. But to win, nobody is squeaky clean and it’s a standard that is not attainable. There isn’t a person in the planet that is righteous, not one. I think most people’s problem with Sampson is the drugs and grades. As I recall, most of the team was failing most of their classes. Unless he turned that around, most of the team wasn’t going to be eligible if they continued on that way. Also, the phone calls and text messages were specifically what he was on probation for, so it wasn’t so much the acts themselves as it was the egregious flouting of them despite the probation. There’s no doubt he’s a great coach, but he deserved everything he got here. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) 7 minutes ago, IUFLA said: No, I'm arguing that the struggle that Woody and this IU team has experienced this year happens to even the best coaches...Do you agree or disagree with that? Depends on how you define it. If you are just looking at W/L record absent all other context, sure. But I don't think that you could find many examples of coaches with no long-term track record of success who appear to have lost all recruiting momentum, as well as the confidence of much of the fan base, and underperformed so starkly on the court given the existing talent base, but yet were able to rebound quickly to achieve the goals that Woodson himself set (B1G and National championships). And if you could find one, they probably wouldn't have been talking as stubbornly, or running as antiquated a scheme, as Woodson is. So the context matters. Which, again, is why the analogy of Pearl's first three years at Auburn is apples to oranges. Edited March 4 by IUProfessor 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 6 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Again, not the point of contention...Pearl can struggle just like any other coach... There is no one out there that I think you could point the with an immaculate resume. Point will be have you seen enough of Woody and with what Woody is building to think he is the right man going forward. I’m always more interested in the future than the past. I don’t ignore it but I’m looking ahead. Question will be for Dolan who is around the program is he confident Woody is still the right guy to move this forward. Is he recruiting well enough, building a culture to win, making the necessary adjustments and coaching decisions…is his team building one that will sustain success. Only a few people can answer that and have behind the scenes knowledge…but I can make up my mind with my limited knowledge and what I hear from those around the program that might have that access that perhaps this isn’t on the right track. No matter what Dolson is the only one that matters in this decision so we can sit back and wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 12 minutes ago, dgambill said: There is no one out there that I think you could point the with an immaculate resume. Point will be have you seen enough of Woody and with what Woody is building to think he is the right man going forward. I've said numerous times, if next year is mediocre and Dolson wants to make a change, I'd be all for it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGIUAndy Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 (edited) 37 minutes ago, IUFLA said: No, I'm arguing that the struggle that Woody and this IU team has experienced this year happens to even the best coaches...Do you agree or disagree with that? I agree. And I am not sticking up for Woody. He was a reach hire to begin with (zero college experience) and most thought a stopgap. PU has had some "down" years in 2012 to 2015 and had a crap year in 2020. I am not saying Woody shouldn't be let go either, but at some point good coaches have down years, and IU has been mediocre for a long time, so it' not super surprising we're having a down year now. Woody did screw up this roster and if what you read about recruiting is true, he doesn't seem like any sort of grinder and you definitely need that nowadays. Hopefully things work out for the best regardless. Edited March 4 by OGIUAndy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fkfootball Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Woodson either gets fired this month, or in 12 months. But this guy doesn't have the juice to fix IU. Not at this stage of his life. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 31 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: who appear to have lost all recruiting momentum We do have a 5 star kid coming in? Right? There's another (Davis) who might be in this class too...and 25 has always been the big target...Very few have made a decision...If Woody totally whiffs there, then you might have a point... 32 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: as well as the confidence of much of the fan base If Dolson is going to let the pitchforks and torches crowd make his decision, then he's not much of a leader...And I don't believe that's the case... I get it...You want Woody gone...I'm not trying to dissuade anyone off that point... I think he deserves another year...Simple as that Time will tell... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victobmyboy Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: We do have a 5 star kid coming in? Right? There's another (Davis) who might be in this class too...and 25 has always been the big target...Very few have made a decision...If Woody totally whiffs there, then you might have a point... If Dolson is going to let the pitchforks and torches crowd make his decision, then he's not much of a leader...And I don't believe that's the case... I get it...You want Woody gone...I'm not trying to dissuade anyone off that point... I think he deserves another year...Simple as that Time will tell... I don’t think Dolson is a guy who will make a decision based on fans. I also think with expansion, NIL and changing landscape might hasten the decision though. This imho isn’t the give him 5 years landscape anymore. I’ve changed my thinking on this too. This isn’t a “he deserves one more year” environment anymore. It’s dog eat dog. IU can’t waste time. If Dolson has a home run guy like a Roy or Cal on the horn then you move. I think that’s what he’s trying to do. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuswingman Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 57 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: You are arguing that it would be a double standard on IU's part. So that is, apparently, the point of contention. Now if you are shifting to an argument about how sure a thing Pearl is, then again, reasonable minds can disagree. I would agree that given the state of the roster, recruiting class, and impending departures, it's entirely possible Pearl would under perform the first year. But to suggest that because his Auburn stint featured a slow build that the same would be true here again overlooks a variety of relevant factors (the historic state of the programs, the circumstances under which he would be assuming the two respective jobs, the advent of the portal and NIL, recruiting base, etc.). So I think any objective observer would have to agree that the odds that Pearl's first 3 years at IU would mirror his first 3 at Auburn (as conveniently opposed to his tenure at USI, UW-Milwaukee, or Tennessee) are slim at best -- probably under 5-10%. you guys are giving me a headache lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 27 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I've said numerous times, if next year is mediocre and Dolson wants to make a change, I'd be all for it... Curious….if you had to put money down….knowing what you know now, do you think we make the tournament next year? I know you want to give him the chance to make it, which I respect, but do you think we will? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuswingman Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 6 hours ago, KDB said: Trilly update: "At this point my understanding is that if Dolson can get the right guys to flip, they'll make the move. And if they make the move, Bruce Pearl is in line to be the guy." Are we talking players to flip or people with a lot of influence to flip? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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