2023 NFL Discussion

[dgambill]

51 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I'm curious why Rodgers doesn't get the same heat from media and fans that Peyton used to get when he only had 1 Super Bowl?

Peyton used to get crushed for that. For all the praise Rodgers gets, and he is great, he's only been to that 1 Super Bowl and you almost never hear criticsm about it. 

Because he won it so early on. Manning mostly suffered for like 10 years...and had multiple MVPs and his playoff stats were markedly way worse than regular season before he won his. Rodgers won his early...and it seemed the organization won't give his offense the help it needs to win. That said I think the last couple years you are starting to hear some rumbling as he has faltered now in several big games in the NFC championships. It also doesn't help that Rodgers has lost 4 games in OT in the playoffs only getting a possession in 3 of them. Overall though I think the media now is just much easier and more friendly with the stars as they want the access as opposed to 20 years ago.

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Again, I have no issue in saying that Brady's career is the GOAT.  But, for most of his career, there has been one or more QBs that could be considered as good or better at any given moment.  

 

Brady changed organization for the first time in his career last year, in a weird Covid year with no training camp, and had a dominant season and won the Super Bowl.

Yes, you could say others have been at his level throughout his career. That has more to do with the QBs in this era than it does Brady and if anything it underscores how great he has been. So many HOFers have come and gone throughout his career but he has remained a constant for two decades - from his time as a game managing winner like Mac Jones is today, to his time as an MVP caliber player in the middle of his career, and then this last third where he has removed any question of who the GOAT is. 

Football is a team game, who is around you is a factor for everyone and Brady is of course no different. But he took advantage of what was around him better than anyone else ever has. Peyton always had multiple first round skill players (and always had multiple HOFers for most of his career) around him and also played for a HOF coach.... two titles. 

[IU Scott]

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

I know I keep saying it, but there is literally no QB that is even close in the discussion for GOAT. 

You could honestly make an argument that if you cut Brady's career in half, that he would take two spots in the top 5 all-time QB's. 

Not going there this time because saying Brady is overrated is just dumb

[dgambill]

I would think most would agree...trying to nitpick Tom Brady's career apart is just foolish. It is really reaching and looking for reasons not to want him to be the best or just being biased because of peoples dislike for him than really objectively going down the list and ranking these qbs. If you want to do that then be my guest...but you better vet anyone you put ahead of him with the same rigerous hairsplitting and try to disect their careers apart with the same energy. If you do that to everyone....I think you still end up with Brady at the top. Ok....I'm officially done...I just ate lunch and I'm getting 🤢. I'm done supporting the guy because I really don't want to hear about him anymore.

[BGleas]

30 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Because he won it so early on. Manning mostly suffered for like 10 years...and had multiple MVPs and his playoff stats were markedly way worse than regular season before he won his. Rodgers won his early...and it seemed the organization won't give his offense the help it needs to win. That said I think the last couple years you are starting to hear some rumbling as he has faltered now in several big games in the NFC championships. It also doesn't help that Rodgers has lost 4 games in OT in the playoffs only getting a possession in 3 of them. Overall though I think the media now is just much easier and more friendly with the stars as they want the access as opposed to 20 years ago.

I hear what you're saying. Certainly winning early is a factor, but can you imagine Brady or Manning going 12 years in the middle of their prime never even making a Super Bowl? 

The part I dont buy is about the Packers not doing enough for Rodgers, or Rodgers not having enough weapons. It just feels like with Rodgers that it is always some else's fault. 

Its always the organizations fault, or his teammates fault or his coaches fault, etc. 

Rodgers has had Jordyn Nelson, Devante Adam's, James Jones, Greg Jennings, Randall Cobb, Donald Driver, Jermicheal Finley, etc., etc.  Many of those guys have overlapped too. 

Is that the greatest show on turf? No. But that is certainly enough weapons for a QB as highly thought of as Rodgers to at least make 1 Super Bowl in 12 years in his absolute prime. 

[dgambill]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I hear what you're saying. Certainly winning early is a factor, but can you imagine Brady or Manning going 12 years in the middle of their prime never even making a Super Bowl? 

The part I dont buy is about the Packers not doing enough for Rodgers, or Rodgers not having enough weapons. It just feels like with Rodgers that it is always some else's fault. 

Its always the organizations fault, or his teammates fault or his coaches fault, etc. 

Rodgers has had Jordyn Nelson, Devante Adam's, James Jones, Greg Jennings, Randall Cobb, Donald Driver, Jermicheal Finley, etc., etc.  Many of those guys have overlapped too. 

Is that the greatest show on turf? No. But that is certainly enough weapons for a QB as highly thought of as Rodgers to at least make 1 Super Bowl in 12 years in his absolute prime. 

The media now more so then ever picks and chooses winners. It does this in everything from corporations to politicians to star athletes to movie stars. I'd also say athletes have more control over the media then in the past....example Brady having his own podcast and Rodgers exclusive show with Pat Macfee. So the limited interviews outside access outside their carefully constructed publicity and endorsed people is so controlled anyone that was to go against them their info and ability to cover them would dry up immediately. I'm sure you know well more than others how different the environment is and how much control these star athletes wield. The giants of the media world are gone. Now information is controlled through lackeys and fan boys and those that are on the good side of these athletes....if they don't...their career dries up very quickly.

Anyways you make very very fair points. I think Rodgers has been fairly well insulated since he has come into the league. Guys like him and now you are starting to see it with Russell Wilson....they've been given a pass for several seasons....but if you was to hold that standard we've had for qbs of the past...they've underperformed given their superstar status. 

[Hoosier51]

4 hours ago, BGleas said:

The flip side is, Brady won a SB with David Givens as his best WR. He won another with Malcolm Mitchell as his best WR. 

Imagine Brady having Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edge James? For the vast majority of the careers, Peyton had far more to work with offensively. 

Yeah but you can also say, imagine Peyton having those NE defenses and Belickick as his coach when he was in Indy. Peyton at times had some decent defenses in Indy but never consistently like Brady did with NE. He also had a brilliant coach that would change his gameplan with every game, looking at 3 passes against Buffalo. 

Brady is a great QB but in my opinion if you put anyone one of Montana, Young,Manning,Brees or Rodgers on those Patriot teams and you are talking about them being the GOAT.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hoosier51

[BGleas]

18 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

Yeah but you can also say, imagine Peyton having those NE defenses and Belickick as his coach when he was in Indy. Peyton at times had some decent defenses in Indy but never consistently like Brady did with NE. He also had a brilliant coach that would change his gameplan with every game, looking at 3 passes against Buffalo. 

Brady is a great QB but in my opinion if you put anyone one of Montana, Young,Manning,Brees or Rodgers on those Patriot teams and you are talking about them being the GOAT.

I disagree. I could get on board with that line of thinking if 1) the gap from Brady to the rest wasn't so wide, 2) if those Patriot teams were blowing people out, and 3) if Brady didn't just win a SB for another organization and without Belichick, and in a season where he had no training camp. 

On point 2, it's not like the Patriots were blowing people out and you could just plug/play any QB in there. Amongst his other accolades, Brady is the most clutch QB ever. He has the most playoff comeback wins, probably the regular season too. 

Brady was marching his team down the field for the game winning scores in almost every Super Bowl he was in. Even the two he lost to the Giants, he marched his team down the field for the game winning scores and then his defenses failed him. 

[Hoosier51]

Some big games this weekend for playoff contenders. As a Colts fan i will be keeping an eye on KC at LA, Raiders at Cleveland and Carolina at Buffalo. Couple of other ones also but to many to list lol.

[Hoosier51]

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I disagree. I could get on board with that line of thinking if 1) the gap from Brady to the rest wasn't so wide, 2) if those Patriot teams were blowing people out, and 3) if Brady didn't just win a SB for another organization and without Belichick, and in a season where he had no training camp. 

On point 2, it's not like the Patriots were blowing people out and you could just plug/play any QB in there. Amongst his other accolades, Brady is the most clutch QB ever. He has the most playoff comeback wins, probably the regular season too. 

Brady was marching his team down the field for the game winning scores in almost every Super Bowl he was in. Even the two he lost to the Giants, he marched his team down the field for the game winning scores and then his defenses failed him. 

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Not taking anything away from Brady, as 5fouls said he has had the best career of any QB, but he has benefited from possibly the greatest defensive mind ever and coach.

 I give him more credit for his SB win in Tampa then in NE, like i said any great QB would have won SBs as a Patriot.

 Let me ask you this, if Brady wasn't on those NE teams do you think he has anywhere near as many SBs as he does. Or would he be like Bradsaw with his four, who isn't even mentioned in the top ten of all time QB.

I need to add before i get called on it that clearly Brady is better then Bradshaw lol.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Hoosier51

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I hear what you're saying. Certainly winning early is a factor, but can you imagine Brady or Manning going 12 years in the middle of their prime never even making a Super Bowl? 

The part I dont buy is about the Packers not doing enough for Rodgers, or Rodgers not having enough weapons. It just feels like with Rodgers that it is always some else's fault. 

Its always the organizations fault, or his teammates fault or his coaches fault, etc. 

Rodgers has had Jordyn Nelson, Devante Adam's, James Jones, Greg Jennings, Randall Cobb, Donald Driver, Jermicheal Finley, etc., etc.  Many of those guys have overlapped too. 

Is that the greatest show on turf? No. But that is certainly enough weapons for a QB as highly thought of as Rodgers to at least make 1 Super Bowl in 12 years in his absolute prime. 

I think you are underestimating the Belichick factor.  Yes, I know what happened last year.  And, yes, Brady is the GOAT.

But, it's reasonable to assume that Brady does not have 8 rings if not for Belichick.  And, it's reasonable to assume guys like Manning, Rodgers, etc. would have more if coached by Belichick.

That's really my point.  Not trying to claim he is not the GOAT.

[Hoosier51]

Since we are on the subject of NE and Tampa, i need to get my tinfoil hat out this week for officiating. Homefield advantage for NE, to lead to a possible Tampa matchup in the SB has to have the NFL drooling all over themselves lol. 😁 😁

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I think you are underestimating the Belichick factor.  Yes, I know what happened last year.  And, yes, Brady is the GOAT.

But, it's reasonable to assume that Brady does not have 8 rings if not for Belichick.  And, it's reasonable to assume guys like Manning, Rodgers, etc. would have more if coached by Belichick.

That's really my point.  Not trying to claim he is not the GOAT.

I would respond to that point made by you and @Hoosier51 with a few different things. 

Are we saying the same thing about Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, etc., etc.? They've only won with one coach and all of their coaches have at times been described as some of the best ever in sports. 

On the point about other QB's in NE, I don't know that other quarterbacks would have won as much in NE. Would they have won some SB's? Yes, absolutely. Would they have won six? I doubt it. Rodgers has had numerous chances (NFC title games) to get to more Super Bowls with really good teams and he hasn't been able to do it. 

What is Peyton Manning known for? Great regular season stats but oftentimes underperforming in the playoffs, right? I don't think in his second year (key point there, not prime Peyton, second year Peyton) he would have led the Patriots with a minute to go against St. Louis for the game-winning FG. I don't think he comes back from down 28-3 against Atlanta late in his career. 

Also, with Manning's regular season success but playoff failures, we can flip the script on this discussion and make the argument that he was propped up in the regular season by playing in a Dome. Would his stats and performance be as good in the regular season playing in NE? Maybe not, which could result in worse seeds and poorer playoff performances had he been in NE. 

Rodgers has had plenty of really, really good teams and often played in the weaker conference (NFC is strong now, but hasn't always been) yet has only been able to get to 1 Super Bowl in 13 seasons as a starter. So I do think it's a lot to just assume he would have 6 SB's and 9 SB appearances if he played in NE. 

Before I wrap this up, I think Peyton and Rodgers are all-time greats, first ballot HOF'ers. I'm a big Manning fan too, and yes I think both would almost definitely have more SB's if they played in NE. I do not think they would have six SB's and 9 appearances with NE though. 

[KoB2011]

22 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I would respond to that point made by you and @Hoosier51 with a few different things. 

Are we saying the same thing about Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, etc., etc.? They've only won with one coach and all of their coaches have at times been described as some of the best ever in sports. 

On the point about other QB's in NE, I don't know that other quarterbacks would have won as much in NE. Would they have won some SB's? Yes, absolutely. Would they have won six? I doubt it. Rodgers has had numerous chances (NFC title games) to get to more Super Bowls with really good teams and he hasn't been able to do it. 

What is Peyton Manning known for? Great regular season stats but oftentimes underperforming in the playoffs, right? I don't think in his second year (key point there, not prime Peyton, second year Peyton) he would have led the Patriots with a minute to go against St. Louis for the game-winning FG. I don't think he comes back from down 28-3 against Atlanta late in his career. 

Also, with Manning's regular season success but playoff failures, we can flip the script on this discussion and make the argument that he was propped up in the regular season by playing in a Dome. Would his stats and performance be as good in the regular season playing in NE? Maybe not, which could result in worse seeds and poorer playoff performances had he been in NE. 

Rodgers has had plenty of really, really good teams and often played in the weaker conference (NFC is strong now, but hasn't always been) yet has only been able to get to 1 Super Bowl in 13 seasons as a starter. So I do think it's a lot to just assume he would have 6 SB's and 9 SB appearances if he played in NE. 

Before I wrap this up, I think Peyton and Rodgers are all-time greats, first ballot HOF'ers. I'm a big Manning fan too, and yes I think both would almost definitely have more SB's if they played in NE. I do not think they would have six SB's and 9 appearances with NE though. 

I'd only add, that while the consensus from most in this thread seems to be Brady was a result of his circumstances, did he not consistently have to go threw mostly the other guys mentioned in this thread and a few more HOFers? Seems like those guys collectively ended up in similar situations and collectively delivered less results. 

Some of this reminds me of a Purdue fan trying to justify that Gene Keady is a better coach than Bob Knight, but Knight just was in a better circumstance. 

[rico]

I wonder how many more years Rodgers is gonna play?   Maybe he can chip away at Brady's GOATness.

[BGleas]

21 minutes ago, rico said:

I wonder how many more years Rodgers is gonna play?   Maybe he can chip away at Brady's GOATness.

No chance. He'd have to play like 8-10 more years and win the SB almost every year, seeing as how he's been to 1 in 13 years as a starter that seems unlikely. 

Even Mahomes almost has no chance. He'd have to get to 6-8 SB's, but even then Brady beat him head-to-head in the AFC Title game and another time in the SB. 

There's more to it than just SB's, but the issue is that Brady is miles and miles ahead on that front, and holds most of the passing records, that there is just no passing him without having numerous SB wins. 

[KoB2011]

17 minutes ago, BGleas said:

No chance. He'd have to play like 8-10 more years and win the SB almost every year, seeing as how he's been to 1 in 13 years as a starter that seems unlikely. 

Even Mahomes almost has no chance. He'd have to get to 6-8 SB's, but even then Brady beat him head-to-head in the AFC Title game and another time in the SB. 

There's more to it than just SB's, but the issue is that Brady is miles and miles ahead on that front, and holds most of the passing records, that there is just no passing him without having numerous SB wins. 

I actually think Manning has the best case against him and struggle to see how those guys can put up a case as good as Manning. 
 

Manning at least had him beat in the passing stats prior to longevity kicking in (and still has some stats that aren’t just volume based) and he has a winning record against him in the playoffs. 
 

That’s not to say Manning is a debate against Brady, it is just to say I don’t know that those guys can really catch Manning for number two unless they dwarf him in SBs, which seems unlikely. 

[Hoosier51]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I would respond to that point made by you and @Hoosier51 with a few different things. 

Are we saying the same thing about Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, etc., etc.? They've only won with one coach and all of their coaches have at times been described as some of the best ever in sports. 

On the point about other QB's in NE, I don't know that other quarterbacks would have won as much in NE. Would they have won some SB's? Yes, absolutely. Would they have won six? I doubt it. Rodgers has had numerous chances (NFC title games) to get to more Super Bowls with really good teams and he hasn't been able to do it. 

What is Peyton Manning known for? Great regular season stats but oftentimes underperforming in the playoffs, right? I don't think in his second year (key point there, not prime Peyton, second year Peyton) he would have led the Patriots with a minute to go against St. Louis for the game-winning FG. I don't think he comes back from down 28-3 against Atlanta late in his career. 

Also, with Manning's regular season success but playoff failures, we can flip the script on this discussion and make the argument that he was propped up in the regular season by playing in a Dome. Would his stats and performance be as good in the regular season playing in NE? Maybe not, which could result in worse seeds and poorer playoff performances had he been in NE. 

Rodgers has had plenty of really, really good teams and often played in the weaker conference (NFC is strong now, but hasn't always been) yet has only been able to get to 1 Super Bowl in 13 seasons as a starter. So I do think it's a lot to just assume he would have 6 SB's and 9 SB appearances if he played in NE. 

Before I wrap this up, I think Peyton and Rodgers are all-time greats, first ballot HOF'ers. I'm a big Manning fan too, and yes I think both would almost definitely have more SB's if they played in NE. I do not think they would have six SB's and 9 appearances with NE though. 

I think this conversation will just go around in circles. I doubt anything said here is going to change anyones opinion lol.

[BGleas]

48 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I actually think Manning has the best case against him and struggle to see how those guys can put up a case as good as Manning. 
 

Manning at least had him beat in the passing stats prior to longevity kicking in (and still has some stats that aren’t just volume based) and he has a winning record against him in the playoffs. 
 

That’s not to say Manning is a debate against Brady, it is just to say I don’t know that those guys can really catch Manning for number two unless they dwarf him in SBs, which seems unlikely. 

Agree. I'd have Manning second as well. 

I think Mahomes can catch Manning if he wins 4-5 Super Bowls and keeps up with the stats he's been putting up for another decade or so. 

[KoB2011]

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. I'd have Manning second as well. 

I think Mahomes can catch Manning if he wins 4-5 Super Bowls and keeps up with the stats he's been putting up for another decade or so. 

I agree, I just think that’s a really tall task. 

[5fouls]

50 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

I think this conversation will just go around in circles. I doubt anything said here is going to change anyones opinion lol.

My opinion has changed.  Joe Flacco is the GOAT.  Won every Super Bowl he played in.

 

[5fouls]

55 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

My opinion has changed.  Joe Flacco is the GOAT.  Won every Super Bowl he played in.

 

Hell.  Brady is closer to Flacco than he is Rodgers.  

QB Rating in Playoffs (Career)

Antwaan Randle El - 121.5

Aaron Rodgers - 100.5

Drew Brees - 97.1

Tom Brady - 90.4

Joe Flacco - 88.6

Eli Manning - 87.4

Peyton Manning - 87.4

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by 5fouls

[dgambill]

20 hours ago, BGleas said:

I would respond to that point made by you and @Hoosier51 with a few different things. 

Are we saying the same thing about Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, etc., etc.? They've only won with one coach and all of their coaches have at times been described as some of the best ever in sports. 

On the point about other QB's in NE, I don't know that other quarterbacks would have won as much in NE. Would they have won some SB's? Yes, absolutely. Would they have won six? I doubt it. Rodgers has had numerous chances (NFC title games) to get to more Super Bowls with really good teams and he hasn't been able to do it. 

What is Peyton Manning known for? Great regular season stats but oftentimes underperforming in the playoffs, right? I don't think in his second year (key point there, not prime Peyton, second year Peyton) he would have led the Patriots with a minute to go against St. Louis for the game-winning FG. I don't think he comes back from down 28-3 against Atlanta late in his career. 

Also, with Manning's regular season success but playoff failures, we can flip the script on this discussion and make the argument that he was propped up in the regular season by playing in a Dome. Would his stats and performance be as good in the regular season playing in NE? Maybe not, which could result in worse seeds and poorer playoff performances had he been in NE. 

Rodgers has had plenty of really, really good teams and often played in the weaker conference (NFC is strong now, but hasn't always been) yet has only been able to get to 1 Super Bowl in 13 seasons as a starter. So I do think it's a lot to just assume he would have 6 SB's and 9 SB appearances if he played in NE. 

Before I wrap this up, I think Peyton and Rodgers are all-time greats, first ballot HOF'ers. I'm a big Manning fan too, and yes I think both would almost definitely have more SB's if they played in NE. I do not think they would have six SB's and 9 appearances with NE though. 

I'd save your breath @BGleas. There is no convincing these guys or even reasoning. Heck even on the Colts forum they almost unanimously accept Tom Brady as the greatest qb to play. Not sure the mental gymnastics necessary to come to another conclusion but it's Olympic caliber for sure.  I get it that there is a lot that goes into the guys career....and there have been numerous cheating scandals that taint opinions but as much as I may not "like" the guy..I don't know any way to come to another conclusion. Doesn't mean he was my favorite qb to watch...root for...or admire...but the evidence is just overwhelming.

[rico]

2 hours ago, dgambill said:

I'd save your breath @BGleas. There is no convincing these guys or even reasoning. Heck even on the Colts forum they almost unanimously accept Tom Brady as the greatest qb to play. Not sure the mental gymnastics necessary to come to another conclusion but it's Olympic caliber for sure.  I get it that there is a lot that goes into the guys career....and there have been numerous cheating scandals that taint opinions but as much as I may not "like" the guy..I don't know any way to come to another conclusion. Doesn't mean he was my favorite qb to watch...root for...or admire...but the evidence is just overwhelming.

That is fine and everything but Brady still sucks!  LOL

[bronkonagurski]

All this talk about Tom Brady when we all know Rex Grossman is the 🐐