rico Posted December 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 8 minutes ago, BGleas said: I know I keep saying it, but there is literally no QB that is even close in the discussion for GOAT. You could honestly make an argument that if you cut Brady's career in half, that he would take two spots in the top 5 all-time QB's. Who has won the most MVP awards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, rico said: Who has won the most MVP awards? Peyton Manning has won 5, but I'm guessing you already knew that. I'm guessing also guessing Manning would trade 2-3 of those for 6 more SB appearances and 5 more SB wins. At this point in time, though a lot can still happen, Brady is probably the front runner to win his 4th MVP, at the age of 44. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegrassIU Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 29 minutes ago, btownqb said: I'll never agree he's the best QB ever. You are one of my favorites, but you are really digging in here based on emotion. There is zero measurable standard that does not have him light years ahead of whoever the 2nd best all time QB would be. Silly rabbit 😁 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted December 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Just now, BGleas said: Peyton Manning has won 5, but I'm guessing you already knew that. I'm guessing also guessing Manning would trade 2-3 of those for 6 more SB appearances and 5 more SB wins. At this point in time, though a lot can still happen, Brady is probably the front runner to win his 4th MVP, at the age of 44. LOL...yeah, I did. My point is that someone could use that award to refute Brady being the GOAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, rico said: LOL...yeah, I did. My point is that someone could use that award to refute Brady being the GOAT. You could, but I've never heard anyone do it. I know we all watch a lot of football, and when i hear commentators calling Brady the GOAT, and they do quite often, I dont hear any saying, "well hold on there, Peyton Manning has 5 MVP's he should be in this discussion." You hardly ever hear anyone, players, coaches, commentators, etc., disagree with Brady being the clear and virtually undisputed GOAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted December 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, BGleas said: You could, but I've never heard anyone do it. I know we all watch a lot of football, and when i hear commentators calling Brady the GOAT, and they do quite often, I dont hear any saying, "well hold on there, Peyton Manning has 5 MVP's he should be in this discussion." You hardly ever hear anyone, players, coaches, commentators, etc., disagree with Brady being the clear and virtually undisputed GOAT. Well...they haven't met @btownqbyet! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 40 minutes ago, BGleas said: I know I keep saying it, but there is literally no QB that is even close in the discussion for GOAT. You could honestly make an argument that if you cut Brady's career in half, that he would take two spots in the top 5 all-time QB's. https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/32472417/tom-brady-three-hall-fame-careers-case-enshrinement-seven-year-era-patriots-bucs You could cut it into thirds and make a strong case for three HOF careers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 30 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said: You are one of my favorites, but you are really digging in here based on emotion. There is zero measurable standard that does not have him light years ahead of whoever the 2nd best all time QB would be. Silly rabbit 😁 If it weren't for getting caught cheating 3 times, his defense, his head coach, his kicker, and him throwing 4 yard passes to Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, and James White and waiting on YAC.. I'd be all for agreeing with you guys. I flat out can't though. There is just no way lol 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 57 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I've personally never seen an under thrown deep ball that the defender who had his back to the ball was stationary. Generally the defender doesn't know it's under thrown and is continuing to go down field - that's not a defender being stationary and getting run into, it's a defender trying to force a receiver away from a ball because the defender doesn't know where it is. Do you have an example where the defender was just stationary and holding his place on the field? No that is not what I am saying. What I'm saying is that is incidental contact. Like they get their feet tangled up...that isn't called PI. The defender has a right to the path he is on. If he is not altering course I don't see why that should be a penalty if the offensive player decides to run into him. Why should he have to alter his path? Just like in basketball if you go up the court and you are both running side by side if you veer your path right into the defender and flop...that isn't going to get a foul call. They literally just changed the rule on that. What I'm saying is if the defender is in a legal defensive position running up the field if the offensive guy then just launches himself into the guy and tries to climb over him to me that shouldn't be PI. Maybe you just call the ball uncatchable because in 90% of these throws the ball is so far under thrown even if the defender isn't there they still wouldn't catch the ball....and neither would have Evans on that throw....he had no shot at it. It is my opinion PI has gone far far too far the other way. These plays are just so blatently different than your typical PI where a guy is grabbing/hitting/knocking into a guy early and interfering with their chance to catch the ball. This is the offensive guy initiating contact to come back through a defender...not a defender doing the opposite. It technically is the rule...I'm not arguing...I just don't think it should continue to get called. The nba made the Harden foul rule change and I think the NFL should do something similar. Here is the play....I've seen much much worse but to me this still wasn't a PI. Maybe this writer is better explaining but I have the same position as he. I just think in general the refs need more work on what is catchable and not on many of these calls. https://larrybrownsports.com/football/mike-evans-pass-interference-penalty-bucs-overtime/588656 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 21 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/32472417/tom-brady-three-hall-fame-careers-case-enshrinement-seven-year-era-patriots-bucs You could cut it into thirds and make a strong case for three HOF careers. Right! There is literally no argument to be made. There isn't even a QB that can be brought into the discussion, that how far Brady has lapped the field. As I mentioned, when Brady is called the GOAT, and it happens on football telecasts on a weekly to daily basis, literally nobody ever jumps in and disagrees. Former players, coaches, commentators, nobody says, "hold up, what about this guy?" Ever reasonable football mind agrees Brady is the GOAt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 22 minutes ago, btownqb said: If it weren't for getting caught cheating 3 times, his defense, his head coach, his kicker, and him throwing 4 yard passes to Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, and James White and waiting on YAC.. I'd be all for agreeing with you guys. I flat out can't though. There is just no way lol Tom Brady is 44 years old and leads the league in air yards right now.... Can't believe a former QB would knock a QB for playing to her personnel that he didn't pick (and is partly why he left NE). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Brady has had the greatest career. That cannot be disputed. But, he also benefitted greatly from the organizations he has played for. Pair a healthy Peyton in his prime with Belichik and he gets a few more rings as well. Put another way....Brady is the GOAT of all-time without, quite possibly, ever being the undisputed best at any single point and time in his career. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, KoB2011 said: Tom Brady is 44 years old and leads the league in air yards right now.... Can't believe a former QB would knock a QB for playing to her personnel that he didn't pick (and is partly why he left NE). Agreed....and there is an art to throwing the ball in a position to allow your player to gain YAC. Don't get me wrong....Brady's stats have largely come with longevity but that is impressive in of itself...but the guy just wins with whomever he plays with. Heck he was with the exception of the Welker/Moss/Gronk years he was throwing to guys like Troy Brown, Givens, and Branch most of his career. Guys like Amendola and others that left and basically washed out of the league. Just because he excelled in that system doesn't make him a system qb. The system was to take advantage of Brady. Now he is playing in Tampa and putting up star wars numbers in an offense that thrives on deep passing and attacking downfield under Arians. I can't stand him...but he is ageless and still has a rifle for an arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Brady has had the greatest career. That cannot be disputed. But, he also benefitted greatly from the organizations he has played for. Pair a healthy Peyton in his prime with Belichik and he gets a few more rings as well. Put another way....Brady is the GOAT of all-time without, quite possibly, ever being the undisputed best at any single point and time in his career. The flip side is, Brady won a SB with David Givens as his best WR. He won another with Malcolm Mitchell as his best WR. Imagine Brady having Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Edge James? For the vast majority of the careers, Peyton had far more to work with offensively. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, dgambill said: Agreed....and there is an art to throwing the ball in a position to allow your player to gain YAC. Don't get me wrong....Brady's stats have largely come with longevity but that is impressive in of itself...but the guy just wins with whomever he plays with. Heck he was with the exception of the Welker/Moss/Gronk years he was throwing to guys like Troy Brown, Givens, and Branch most of his career. Guys like Amendola and others that left and basically washed out of the league. Just because he excelled in that system doesn't make him a system qb. The system was to take advantage of Brady. Now he is playing in Tampa and putting up star wars numbers in an offense that thrives on deep passing and attacking downfield under Arians. I can't stand him...but he is ageless and still has a rifle for an arm. Brady made that Hogan dude that played lacrosse at PSU a legit NFL WR that was a starter on SB winning teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Fact is...if McDaniels hadn't betrayed the Colts we very well could have had Brady come over last year and be playing for back to back SBs instead of TB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Just now, BGleas said: Brady made that Hogan dude that played lacrosse at PSU a legit NFL WR that was a starter on SB winning teams. And Edelman who played qb....and Amendola...the list goes on and on. Don't get me wrong....Manning turned some nobodies into somebodies too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Maybe I feel indebted to Tom Brady...because it makes me feel sick to support him.....but without him there is ZERO percent chance I made my fantasy playoffs in HSN. I lost CMC and Derrick Henry both this year...and still landed the #1 seed....all because of one man....Tom Freakin Brady. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, dgambill said: Fact is...if McDaniels hadn't betrayed the Colts we very well could have had Brady come over last year and be playing for back to back SBs instead of TB. Not that it needs cementing, but doesn't that right there kind of do it? As a Colts fan especially, you don't even question that if Brady came to Indy you would have won the SB. Your thought right off the bat is, "if Brady came to Indy we'd be going for back-to-back Super Bowls". That has nothing to do with Bill Belichick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 22 minutes ago, BGleas said: Not that it needs cementing, but doesn't that right there kind of do it? As a Colts fan especially, you don't even question that if Brady came to Indy you would have won the SB. Your thought right off the bat is, "if Brady came to Indy we'd be going for back-to-back Super Bowls". That has nothing to do with Bill Belichick. If Aaron Rodgers had signed with the Colts, fans could say the same thing. Rodgers, after all, was MVP last year. Again, I have no issue in saying that Brady's career is the GOAT. But, for most of his career, there has been one or more QBs that could be considered as good or better at any given moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 Just now, 5fouls said: If Aaron Rodgers had signed with the Colts, fans could say the same thing. Rodgers, after all, was MVP last year. Again, I have no issue in saying that Brady's career is the GOAT. But, for most of his career, there has been one or more QBs that could be considered as good or better at any given moment. How could you say that about Rodgers? He's consistently had upper tier NFC teams but has only made it to 1 SB in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BGleas said: How could you say that about Rodgers? He's consistently had upper tier NFC teams but has only made it to 1 SB in his career. Again. Coaching and organization. Does Brady have as many rings if he is in Green Bay instead of New England all of those years? I'm not saying Rodgers is 'greater' than Brady. But, I am saying he could have had the same level of impact on the Colts last year as Brady would have. Edited December 14, 2021 by 5fouls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Again. Coaching and organization. Does Brady have as many rings if he is in Green Bay instead of New England all of those years? I'm not saying Rodgers is 'greater' than Brady. But, I am saying he could have had the same level of impact on the Colts last year as Brady would have. Green Bay has been a pretty good organization for a long time. Of course Rodgers can win a Super Bowl, like he's capable of it. He might win one this year, and currently as a guy at the tail end but still in his prime he is better than a 44 year old Brady. With that said, as great as Rodgers is and he's been on teams often considered one of the favorites in the NFC, he's only been to 1 Super Bowl and that was 12 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 I'm curious why Rodgers doesn't get the same heat from media and fans that Peyton used to get when he only had 1 Super Bowl? Peyton used to get crushed for that. For all the praise Rodgers gets, and he is great, he's only been to that 1 Super Bowl and you almost never hear criticsm about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 14, 2021 Report Share Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) One only needs to look at the Patriots this season, and where Belichik has them with Mac Jones as their QB, to realize he has played a huge part in Brady's rings. Yes. Last year the Pats sucked, but a year later he is sitting at the top of the conference with a rookie QB. And, Bruce Ariens is a darn good head coach as well. Brady definitely picked the right organization to sign with. Brady is still a HOF quarterback if he had played for the Packers, the Steelers, or the 49ers. But, he is the GOAT because he played for the Patriots. Edited December 14, 2021 by 5fouls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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