At This Point, Whats Is Your Preference?

[NCHoosier32]

Looking at the point of why I started this topic, right now 58% of the people who voted would rather not even make a move if they can't get one of the big time guys that don't seem super realistic.  That's where I am right now.  I'm not sold on CAM, but hope he rights the ship.  If not, we can't afford to just go out and take a chance on someone.  It has to be the right guy this time if we make a move.  

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, NCHoosier32 said:

Looking at the point of why I started this topic, right now 58% of the people who voted would rather not even make a move if they can't get one of the big time guys that don't seem super realistic.  That's where I am right now.  I'm not sold on CAM, but hope he rights the ship.  If not, we can't afford to just go out and take a chance on someone.  It has to be the right guy this time if we make a move.  

You never make a change just for change itself

[hoosier_exotics]

Go big or lets ride the horse we have.  If our next hire doesn't turn heads on a national level, we totally screwed the pooch. Last thing I want to see is Alford or someone similar running the show

[IU Scott]

12 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

Go big or lets ride the horse we have.  If our next hire doesn't turn heads on a national level, we totally screwed the pooch. Last thing I want to see is Alford or someone similar running the show

So more than likely we keep it the same because there are not many out there that would turn heads that is realistic.

[hoosier_exotics]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

So more than likely we keep it the same because there are not many out there that would turn heads that is realistic.

Agreed

[Hoosierfan1901]

No Ivan Renko choice? Renko currently has an over 230-85 record with 3 F4s and a national championship appearance! With a lot of appearances in the E8/S16s! He is my choice!

[NotIThatLives]

5 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I agree with you.  It's just my hierarchy to replace Archie would look like this.

1) Brad Stevens

2) Brad Stevens (He'll say no the first time, but ask a second and he might change his mind)

3) Thad Matta

4) A whole bunch of other guys

19,317) Steve Alford

19,318) Rick Pitino

 

 

I'd take Rick over Alford.  If we are going that low we might as well get a winner.  

[addictedtoIU]

I picked Beilein. I used to be against old coaches, but not any more. What is important is now and the next several years. If a really good coach can right the ship and lay a solid foundation for the next coach after him, a decent 4-5 years of an old coach before his retirement would definitely worth it. If we can't land a homerun hire at this moment, we should move forward one step at a time. IU needs to improve the overall situation of men's basketball program so the next coach (after Beilein) finds it more attractive. 

[13th&Jackson]

3 hours ago, addictedtoIU said:

I picked Beilein. I used to be against old coaches, but not any more. What is important is now and the next several years. If a really good coach can right the ship and lay a solid foundation for the next coach after him, a decent 4-5 years of an old coach before his retirement would definitely worth it. If we can't land a homerun hire at this moment, we should move forward one step at a time. IU needs to improve the overall situation of men's basketball program so the next coach (after Beilein) finds it more attractive. 

Here's the problem. In Tommy Amaker's last two seasons at MI, he was 22-11 and 22-13. Beilien took over and implemented his system. He went 10-22, 21-14 and 15-17. He just turned 68.

Not even going to comment on the perception of what happened in Cleveland. Probably a raw deal for Beilein, but perception is reality.

[addictedtoIU]

13 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Here's the problem. In Tommy Amaker's last two seasons at MI, he was 22-11 and 22-13. Beilien took over and implemented his system. He went 10-22, 21-14 and 15-17. He just turned 68.

Not even going to comment on the perception of what happened in Cleveland. Probably a raw deal for Beilein, but perception is reality.

You brought up a pretty good point. The fact that he's old makes this option to be a bit more risky. Personally, I don't mind about his short stint at Cavs because I never thought he would become a good NBA coach. The reason was that he was (and probably still is) a micro manager. Max Bielfeldt once answered a question about the key difference between Beilein and Crean, and I was a bit shocked to hear that they were the polar opposite in their overall team managing style; Beilein was an absolute micro manager who looked into things in great details while Crean gave his players a lot of freedom and was not very detailed. 

With Beilein, success is almost guaranteed; he proved himself at 2 different high major D1 programs, but the question is how many good years are left in him. I asked myself what I want from Archie or any other coach for the next 4 years. My answer is the culture and foundation for future success. It's almost certain to me that coaches like Stevens and Donovan won't be coming for a rescue. Then, we should look at things in maybe 4-year window first to stabilize the program, and then we can really look into the future. In that regard, I thought Beilein was a gamble worth taking. 

[KoB2011]

32 minutes ago, addictedtoIU said:

You brought up a pretty good point. The fact that he's old makes this option to be a bit more risky. Personally, I don't mind about his short stint at Cavs because I never thought he would become a good NBA coach. The reason was that he was (and probably still is) a micro manager. Max Bielfeldt once answered a question about the key difference between Beilein and Crean, and I was a bit shocked to hear that they were the polar opposite in their overall team managing style; Beilein was an absolute micro manager who looked into things in great details while Crean gave his players a lot of freedom and was not very detailed. 

With Beilein, success is almost guaranteed; he proved himself at 2 different high major D1 programs, but the question is how many good years are left in him. I asked myself what I want from Archie or any other coach for the next 4 years. My answer is the culture and foundation for future success. It's almost certain to me that coaches like Stevens and Donovan won't be coming for a rescue. Then, we should look at things in maybe 4-year window first to stabilize the program, and then we can really look into the future. In that regard, I thought Beilein was a gamble worth taking. 

I'm not sure how you can make this long winded response and completely ignore that Beilen had a worse start at UM than Archie had at IU and came in to a more solid foundation. 

Beilen is yet another great example of why we shouldn't be talking about getting rid of Archie unless this season completely implodes. 

[IU Scott]

Maybe we should hire Colorado's coach because they are shooting 84 percent from the line.  That would be the best percentage of all time

[KoB2011]

I really think some of our y'all expect a coach to come in here and after one, maybe two years, have a program rolling but the reality is that's the exception to how things work, not the rule, even with good coaches at good jobs. 

Beilen took as long/longer to get UM going as Archie has.

Shaka Smart has taken a while at Texas 

Bruce Pearl took a while at Auburn. They've regressed again this year with a young team. 

Jay Wright missed the tournament his first three seasons an Nova and has only made it out of the first weekend twice in the past decade. 

Tony Bennett missed the tournament four times in a five year stretch between his final year at WSU and his first four at UVA. 

I'm sure I can keep going, but I'm hoping you guys are my point that even some really good coaches can take a while at a new stop. For every Calipari or Bill Self that have instant success there is a Coach K.

 

 

 

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I really think some of our y'all expect a coach to come in here and after one, maybe two years, have a program rolling but the reality is that's the exception to how things work, not the rule, even with good coaches at good jobs. 

Beilen took as long/longer to get UM going as Archie has.

Shaka Smart has taken a while at Texas 

Bruce Pearl took a while at Auburn. They've regressed again this year with a young team. 

Jay Wright missed the tournament his first three seasons an Nova and has only made it out of the first weekend twice in the past decade. 

Tony Bennett missed the tournament four times in a five year stretch between his final year at WSU and his first four at UVA. 

I'm sure I can keep going, but I'm hoping you guys are my point that even some really good coaches can take a while at a new stop. For every Calipari or Bill Self that have instant success there is a Coach K.

 

 

 

Been saying this for years

[BADGERVOL]

9 hours ago, 5fouls said:

He's a leader.  Yes, an NBA coach can be a leader as well.  But, not to the level of a college coach.  In college, you have more ownership of the product, and you are the face of the program.  In the pros, the players are the face of the franchise (Pop is the exception) and the GM has a higher degree of ownership of the product than the coach does.  

Stevens is the type of coach that would be a natural transition from Coach K or Dadgum Roy when they retire. One of those two will make a serious, serious offer to Stevens.   IU is only in the discussion here because of where Brad is from.  Indiana needs to strike first, because one of those other two will bring him back to the college game if IU does not.

That said, he'll have a harder time telling either one of those schools 'Yes', if he's already told IU 'No'.  All the more reason for IU to ask first.  We control the narrative if we do.

This is an EXCELLENT response and makes a ton of sense. You make an offer, and I’d say make it PUBLIC that is too good to turn down and if he doesn’t turn it down and ever goes somewhere else it saves IU’s face A TON. Make it count.

[Maedhros]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I really think some of our y'all expect a coach to come in here and after one, maybe two years, have a program rolling but the reality is that's the exception to how things work, not the rule, even with good coaches at good jobs. 

Beilen took as long/longer to get UM going as Archie has.

Shaka Smart has taken a while at Texas 

Bruce Pearl took a while at Auburn. They've regressed again this year with a young team. 

Jay Wright missed the tournament his first three seasons an Nova and has only made it out of the first weekend twice in the past decade. 

Tony Bennett missed the tournament four times in a five year stretch between his final year at WSU and his first four at UVA. 

I'm sure I can keep going, but I'm hoping you guys are my point that even some really good coaches can take a while at a new stop. For every Calipari or Bill Self that have instant success there is a Coach K.

 

 

 

It's not been one or two years, though: it's been four. Shaka's been at Texas even longer and he's having a great year, but take a look at his roster. It's almost entirely RSCI top 75 kids. When Jay Wright got to the Sweet Sixteen in year four, his entire rotation was top 75 kids, mostly upperclassmen. We have three on our roster: one is suspended, one is a reclassed freshman, and the third is likely gone after the year. 

Michigan hadn't made the tournament in ten years, including all six seasons of Tommy Amaker, before Beilein made it in year two and won a game. Year three was rough, but he won another Tournament game in year four and earned a protected seed each of the three seasons after. Virginia likewise didn't have any recent history of success before Bennett started winning.

Anyone who's spent time on this board has seen these examples used many times. But it's not an actual argument in support of Archie achieving similar success at Indiana. It's only an admonishment not to throw away the lottery ticket we bought because there's still one more square to scratch off. Yeah, year five might prove we have a winner on our hands. But the odds are against it. For every Beilein there are any number of Amakers. Tell me why. Give me a reason to think we have the next Bennett on our hands, a top five coach in the business who was able to reach the top of the sport in year five like he flipped a switch. Because that sort of turnaround is definitely the exception, not the rule.

[mrflynn03]

What about Brad Brownell?  He is a Hoosier native.  Played with Calbert in high school and has IU connections.  His record isnt that bad considering where he has coached.

And could maybe bring Cal on as an assistant coach and shooting coach cause lord know we need it. 

[WanamakerIUFan]

17 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Within the next 10 years, Brad Stevens will be coaching college basketball again.  Would you prefer that to be at IU, Duke, or UNC?

This isn't inaccurate.

[Feathery]

16 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Lol. You see this team for 2 hours twice a week and you've "seen enough to know Archie has failed." 

Face it...you know nothing about the culture he's built, the relationship with the kids, or the other internal workings of the program. You see what we all see. Nothing more.

As for your analogy to your position, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Seems to me you're trying to somehow equate running a surgical unit to running a college basketball program. If you go back and read that it really doesn't make sense. Of course you could have been just letting me know "who I'm dealing with." I call that trying to "big time" someone. I'm not a big fan of it, particularly on a basketball message board. Let's just say my resume stacks up, and leave it at that. 

And yes...you're concerned how YOU feel. Not how the coaches or the players, or anyone else feels. Doesn't matter to you if those kids that chose to play for Archie Miller have their lives upended, as long as you can sit on a basketball message board and gripe about it. 

And yeah, it is entertainment to me. That doesn't mean I don't care about the culture and the people who actually make up the program itself. As I said, look at the "investment" you actually have in the program as opposed to 15 players and a coaching staff. 

Then go about your fantasy coach choice.

I'm saving my eggs...

 

 

 

You’ve seen the team 4 hours a week, what makes you think Archie’s been a success? Do results not matter? Should he get a lifetime contract because he recruits players to play at IU and has a relationship with them? When is enough enough for you to start using some of your eggs?
 

fyi. I don’t big time people. I wouldn’t want to do that nor do I have room to do that. 

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, Feathery said:

You’ve seen the team 4 hours a week, what makes you think Archie’s been a success? Do results not matter? Should he get a lifetime contract because he recruits players to play at IU and has a relationship with them? When is enough enough for you to start using some of your eggs?
 

fyi. I don’t big time people. I wouldn’t want to do that nor do I have room to do that. 

Weren't we, by all accounts I read, going to the tournament last year? Isn't it pretty much consensus that the B1G was the strongest conference, top to bottom both this year and last?

Haven't we suffered from a lack of front court depth this year due to Joey Brunk's back, and the subsequent suspension of Jerome Hunter? Haven't we been in every game save 1 (Texas) this year? Haven't we lost in overtime to 3 ranked teams? Didn't we beat Iowa at their place? Haven't we been operating with our second leading scorer out of some of those games and hobbled in others?

We play with 2 kids in the backcourt, Rob and Al, who I appreciate but who are too inconsistent to be upper level B1G guards. Al just doesn't have the strength and athleticism, and Rob gives away a lot of height and has confidence issues. Ok, so we've got upgrades in the wings. Franklin has shown he can certainly be an upper level B1G guards. We have the most coveted point guard in the 22 class who gave us an extra freebie year and is developing nicely. And we have a coaches kid coming in that's 6'5 and shot over 40% from three in ACC play as a freshman. These are the upgrades that will push us over the top and have us winning those close games.

I see accountability through suspending a player mid season for not protecting his team. I see an offense that produces good shots, and a defense that can be top tier when they're on their game. I see a team that has shot 38%or better in 9 of our last 12 games from three, and has shot over 47% from 3 in the last 3 games.

So, yeah...I see us coming together. If the cards fall right and TJD comes back, I see us as one of the favorites in the B1G next year. Regardless, I think our guard play will be better, and we'll be in the race. And this year isn't over yet either.

And don't worry about my eggs. They'll be put to good use. 

Sunny side up or over easy...

 

[Feathery]

54 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Weren't we, by all accounts I read, going to the tournament last year? Isn't it pretty much consensus that the B1G was the strongest conference, top to bottom both this year and last?

Haven't we suffered from a lack of front court depth this year due to Joey Brunk's back, and the subsequent suspension of Jerome Hunter? Haven't we been in every game save 1 (Texas) this year? Haven't we lost in overtime to 3 ranked teams? Didn't we beat Iowa at their place? Haven't we been operating with our second leading scorer out of some of those games and hobbled in others?

We play with 2 kids in the backcourt, Rob and Al, who I appreciate but who are too inconsistent to be upper level B1G guards. Al just doesn't have the strength and athleticism, and Rob gives away a lot of height and has confidence issues. Ok, so we've got upgrades in the wings. Franklin has shown he can certainly be an upper level B1G guards. We have the most coveted point guard in the 22 class who gave us an extra freebie year and is developing nicely. And we have a coaches kid coming in that's 6'5 and shot over 40% from three in ACC play as a freshman. These are the upgrades that will push us over the top and have us winning those close games.

I see accountability through suspending a player mid season for not protecting his team. I see an offense that produces good shots, and a defense that can be top tier when they're on their game. I see a team that has shot 38%or better in 9 of our last 12 games from three, and has shot over 47% from 3 in the last 3 games.

So, yeah...I see us coming together. If the cards fall right and TJD comes back, I see us as one of the favorites in the B1G next year. Regardless, I think our guard play will be better, and we'll be in the race. And this year isn't over yet either.

And don't worry about my eggs. They'll be put to good use. 

Sunny side up or over easy...

 

We were a bubble team last year, a 10 seed by projections. A few midmajor upsets in the tournament and we we’re not in the dance. Myself, I think we make it. But expectations in a down year should be what we make the NCAA as a mid/lower seed.

We are a projected 11 seed right now per ESPN. That’s a down year. So 4 down years out of 4 have been down. At some point ya gotta think this is just who Archie is as a coach?

[IUFLA]

19 minutes ago, Feathery said:

At some point ya gotta think this is just who Archie is as a coach?

I think I outlined who I think he is as a coach above...

[5fouls]

12 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I really think some of our y'all expect a coach to come in here and after one, maybe two years, have a program rolling but the reality is that's the exception to how things work, not the rule, even with good coaches at good jobs. 

Beilen took as long/longer to get UM going as Archie has.

Shaka Smart has taken a while at Texas 

Bruce Pearl took a while at Auburn. They've regressed again this year with a young team. 

Jay Wright missed the tournament his first three seasons an Nova and has only made it out of the first weekend twice in the past decade. 

Tony Bennett missed the tournament four times in a five year stretch between his final year at WSU and his first four at UVA. 

I'm sure I can keep going, but I'm hoping you guys are my point that even some really good coaches can take a while at a new stop. For every Calipari or Bill Self that have instant success there is a Coach K.

 

 

 

[Feathery]

30 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I think I outlined who I think he is as a coach above...

I read your post a few times and I didn’t see anything about winning. Didn’t see anything about a timeline for success. Which has me thinking of a couple bigger picture questions for you. 
 

Does winning and success on the court/field matter to you? If so, what’s acceptable. Or are you more into college sports for the journey of watching young men and women develop regardless out competitive outcomes? 

[IUFLA]

28 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I read your post a few times and I didn’t see anything about winning. Didn’t see anything about a timeline for success. Which has me thinking of a couple bigger picture questions for you. 
 

Does winning and success on the court/field matter to you? If so, what’s acceptable. Or are you more into college sports for the journey of watching young men and women develop regardless out competitive outcomes? 

Everyone likes to cheer for a winning team. I love seeing IU win. But, losing isn't the end of the world. 

I have been an IU fan since 1964. Seen the highest of the highs, and the lowest of the lows. But I'm appreciative of what every kids who has put on that uniform has done. I love seeing the older players, and that one old coach come back so they can see what they mean to IU fans, and how they've played a part in our lives...

Win or lose...

That's what I'm in it for...

As for a timeline for "success" it'll be defined different ways by different people, but I've already gone on record as saying if we're still middle-lower tier B1G at the end of next year, a change might be in order...

But, until then, In Archie I Trust...