tdhoosier

11 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

I go back and forth on if the defensive problems are more schematic or personnel. I'm sure it's a bit of both but our current roster has no one who can guard the ball and disrupt the opponent's offense at the point of attack. Everything breaks down after that - forced into bad or no switches, over helping to counter penetration into the lane, out of position to recover on a shooter etc. 

No doubt it's a bit of both. In general though, we make a lot of mistakes that have nothing to do with the point of attack. Too many times i see un-needed help in the post, guys standing in the middle of nowhere (between the help and the shooter), leaving wide open passing lanes and not boxing out. 

I'm sure this is not what was intended, but it continues to happen. We constantly look confused. I have to wonder, if the defense is so hard to grasp, and in this day and age of high roster turnover, should Woody continue to run it as is? Can he modify it to better suit a personnel that will constantly be changing? Can there be the option of a zone or another look he can use to disrupt the opponents flow?

The defense did not look good last year, and this year mid-majors are picking apart, even with their inferior athleticism.

My question: what was unique about year 1 that allowed for Woody to successfully implement his defense when everybody was learning the system for the first time? The roster was pretty much the same in year 1 and year 2. I don't completely buy that it was the presence of Matta and Fife. Maybe opponents learned how to game plan for it???

4 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

So all we need to do is create an offensive coordinator position and convince May and Woodson. 

 

Who's going to be the defensive coordinator? lol

I go back and fourth on which end of the floor is worse. We don't switch and leave 3 point shooters open, we don't box out on rebounds, and in the last 3 years we have committed more fouls than any other team in the B1G.

I'd have to think if Dusty May is scooped up this off-season, there is going to be a clause in his contract that would make it really expensive for IU to poach him in the future. 

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

It takes 3 things to field a winning team in almost anything, but we'll just stick to basketball here... Talent, experience, and leadership... I don't buy the "scheme" argument 100% because over the years I've seen all different kinds of schemes win... From Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell to Dean Smith playing keep away... Almost all schemes work if you have the talent and it's executed as planned.

Very much disagree with this paragraph.

This is kind of like saying you need 3 things to make the best chocolate chip cookie in the world: eggs, brown sugar and chocolate chips. Sure, you need those items, but you also need other ingredients, measurements, oven temperature and most importantly: the baker. 

Good coaches can do more with less. Plain and simple. 

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Let me just ask this...

If Dolson were to entertain letting Mike Woodson go, would it be because of 

A) his overall body of work 

Or

B) the record this year

?

IF it comes to that.

Both. 

I think the point that others are making is that they don't THINK that this program has a path forward to success if the SYSTEM does not change. I think it's more than fair to say: "Yes, we had some success last year, but I don't like our overall system and do not believe it's conducive to winning in the future." or "We had a good amount of talent and veteran leadership last year to disguise the same issues that plagued us in year 1, year 2, and now are on full display." 

Nobody can see the future. Everything is opinions. You don't need to be the martyr against pessimism....it's okay to debate an opinion without calling people's views 'absurd'. I get that you do not agree with the above sentiments and you do think Woody can turn it around. You may be right in the end. I HOPE you are right in the end.

I think he should get one more year too, but I want to see MAJOR changes (which I have posted about ad nauseam) . I also respect the opinions of those who don't think he deserves another year. 

Dang. I'm just realizing how beneficial out upcoming schedule is. It'd be nice if this team could put a few wins together. Wisconsin is in a mini slump and MSU at home. However, I will predict we go 3-4. Unfortunately, I think we only win one of our remaining home games (Nebraska). NW will suffocate our guards per usual and Wiscy/MSU are just better teams. On the road I just don't think we have the discipline to win back to back games. 

3 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I really hope this doesn’t come off as a personal attack lol but does anyone actually have a list or know of coaches that Dolson reached out to before Woodson? I’ve seen several people say “we tried to get a good coach already and ended up with Woodson”. Maybe it’s just me but I’m skeptical that every single D1 college coach said no to us and simply by a process of elimination, Mike Woodson was our only option lol. A guy with zero college coaching or recruiting experience, 60+ years old and on his final coaching gig before retirement, and hasn’t been a head coach for an NBA team since 2014… 

I do give AD’s a bit of credit because these situations at times can be a “race to the finish” so you have to be intelligent about risking time and effort for the “home run hire” when another coach you could have landed instead gets swept up. Hence why I said I think Ohio St made the right choice to put themselves in a more favorable position to get these convos started and gauge interests. 

I’d imagine everybody is sworn to secrecy. Neither party wants that info getting out. Could you imagine the reaction of our fanbase if, for example, Woody was our 4th choice? Or, for example, how Alabama fans/players/recruits would react if they knew Oates was open to having a conversation about another coaching job? 

In my experience ‘big boosters’ talk a lot to make themselves feel important. I think boosters ‘close to the program’ start 90% of these rumors. When it comes to something important as coaching searches when reputations and careers are on the line, I don’t think anybody knows other than a small group of people whose lips are zipped (aka not boosters. Not players. Not the media). 

Just now, btownqb said:

Yeah.. we foul stupidly.

Oh man. I went back 2 more season and we ranked first in both of them for opponent FT attempts. 

.....add another thing to the list for us to clean up

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

@tdhoosier don't stand up for Gard, next, you'll tell me you support Tyra Buss's marriage to Brad Davison. 

It felt kinda dirty.

And not to be the bearer of bad news, but below is FT attempts by opponent so far this season. 😬

I think half of our fouls came on 3 pt attempts too! lol. 🤦‍♂️

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

 

Gard, Painter, Izzo to go 

I think Collins and Pikiell are worse than those 3. 

Gard has a slow tempo, but Wiscy does not foul all that much. 

55 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

But you never factor in that our most common starting lineup is 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores, and a senior...

I factor that in. 

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not going to make excuses for this team

you literally just did in the previous sentence.

56 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

There's not an AD alive that's going to fire a coach over "how" they won or lost

Sure there is. It happens every year. 
 

58 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

At the end of next year, we can assess then, and see where we're at...But starting a thread like this now is way too premature...

Didn’t know we needed permission. This is a message board we assess everything……to death. 

I respect your opinion, but I’m not sure why you want shut down the conversation. Just don’t read the thread if it bothers you. 

44 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yet there's this thread which essentially is saying we need to fire Mike Woodson over one year...one year...

You can't say it was entertained in the first year...we hadn't been to the tourney in 6 years, and Woody got us there...You can't say it's over the 2nd year, as we were a #4 seed and finished 2nd in the Big 10...

I'd really like to think y'all are reasonable, but that's not the word that comes to mind...

This conversation has basically turned at least this thread into Rupp Rafters North as far as I'm concerned...

And the names I hear...You think Bruce Pearl, Nate Oats, Chris Beard, or Eric Mussleman have never had a "down year"? Of course they have...

One year...

 

 

You are generalizing and I'm trying to bring context because my original point is: the evaluation of his performance is not black and white. The evaluation of how many years any coach deserves is not black and white. 

I prefer to judge this season on its own merits. The red herring arguments about some coach like Lou Henson having a down year in 1984 do absolutely nothing for me because you'd have to compare each situation individually: what constitutes a down year for all these coaches you bring up? First four out of being on the path to not making the NIT? What type of talent do they have on their roster? Have they proven their systems work in the college game? Did their team show any improvement in their down year? Etc. Etc. 

I will repeat again: it's not that we are losing it's how we are losing. If CMW was near the top of the hump and competing in games that is one thing. But it looks like the team is climbing up an escalator that's going the wrong way. We are not only underperforming, we are badly underperforming. The things  that needed to be improved upon in year one and year two are not only not getting better, they are getting worse: defensive switching, rebounds, free throws, turnovers, bad fouls, 3pt differential.  

I wasn't expecting to be better this year. But I was expecting to see some progress in some areas. For just about every metric, I don't see progress. I really do want Woody to succeed so bad. I'm not sure if I want him fired, but as each game goes by, he's not making it easy.

If that's too irrational for you, I don't know what to say.

40 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

You should have had them over last year...

And I'll point out that our starting 5 has 264 D1 games under their belts when we played Saturday...

Less than Edey and Jones combined...

They were over last year. And this year they were like, we played really bad and still beat you by 20. It's pretty embarrassing, to be honest. 

Do we not have enough talent to be competitive in games against tournament caliber teams? Have we gotten any better as a team defensively or offensively this year? Have we played a full 40 minutes of good basketball this year? Whether they have experience or not, we should expect some improvement in these areas, no?

I am not forgetting last year, but to put the bigger picture into context, I do think we should fairly evaluate this year's failures. 

It'd be nice have a view into a parallel universe because the debate would be settled, but I think there are many coaches that could do better with this roster. 

3 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I know some people say the fan base is toxic by asking for a new coach every 4 years or less. But it’s not the fans who decided to hire a mid major coach who made a couple deep tourney runs or a guy who has NBA coaching experience but none in college.

Great points overall.

The amount of years we should give a coach lacks so much context, IMO. The judgement is not a black or white opinion. 

A huge part of the opinion lies within the progression of the program. I think the criticism of Woody would be completely different if this team was competitive in losses and/or showed improvement throughout the season. I feel the need to say it again: it's not that we are losing it's how we are losing. 

Another part of the opinion lies within the age of Woody. I, by no means, am saying he is inept or senile. BUT the plan we were lead to believe is that he was going to turn it around, win championships (his words) and then leave the program in good hands (for his successor). This narrative naturally created an accelerated timeline for success because he only has so many years to do this. 

AND THEN another part of the opinion lies within the inability to win or be competitive in games with the talent on the roster. I had Purdue friends over for the Purdue game and they kept on saying: man, Ware is a great player. Malik is a force. Galloway is so crafty and plays hard. Mgbako has such a smooth shot. Etc. We have some great individual players on this roster, we just can't play as a team. I think we have the most 5 stars on one roster in the last 15-20 years. THIS TEAM HAS TALENT. Sure, we lack guards and the roster construction is shotty, but it is a huge red flag that we aren't even competitive against tournament caliber teams. It's honestly mind boggling. 

6 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

 

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. Nor am I arguing that Woodson should stay or go. Just wanting some discussion.

Some have framed this current IU season as the "worst in program history" (excluding the first 3 Crean years). Some have said the program is in a terrible state and spiraling in the wrong direction. With that, if a coaching change is made we will be (once again) in rebuild mode. So I feel there is valid comparison here.

For the sake of discussion, I think the framing of this season as such refers to on court play and results. 

For numerous reasons, the missing link has been the 'right' coach. The infrastructure behind the coach is there though. 

2 minutes ago, Kdug said:

You’re omitting some major details. FAU’s record the 4 years before May:

14-15: 7-20

15-16: 7-24

16-17: 10-20

17-18: 12-19

Even May’s first 4 years were some of the better FAU seasons since they’ve been a D1 team.

So no IU fans would not be happy with those first 4 year results, but the situation at IU and the situation at FAU are not remotely comparable.

Add to it that May has created a name for himself and has a fun offense to play in. The transfer portal also now exists and IU has a lot of NIL opportunities. I'd like to think he could turn things around quicker at IU. 

Also, even May didn't know what he was walking into at FAU. I remember an interview when he said that he doesn't even show recruits the basketball court or locker rooms on their visits because the facilities are so bad. He just takes them to the ocean. haha. 

1 hour ago, DC2345 said:

Jay Billas among others have said he could potentially end up as that level of coach once he makes a move to a bigger school. What he's doing at FAU is almost as impressive as Stevens at Butler. 
 

 

I think the below opinion is moot because I think CMW will be here next year, but if he's not, I'd bet on Dusty May to be the next HC.

All us fans have our rose colored glasses on and think we can get any coach we want. 3 years ago nobody thought it was going to be Woody. We threw out names like Oates, Mussleman, Stevens, Beard, etc. and none of them are here. All they were, were names on a wishlist. 

You have two obstacles:
1. The candidate must pass the IU morality test (whatever that is)
2. We need to find a coach who actually wants to come here. If the last 3 coaching hires were any indication (or a cold slap in the face), IU is not the 'destination' coaching job we all wish it was. The more we change coaches, the further it falls. 

So I conclude that....
-Pearl has built something at Auburn, gets paid a lot, and (I hate to say it) is in a superior basketball conference. Pearl stays put. 
-Even IF Beard wants to come here, I think he has too much baggage for IU's comfort level. 
-Oates? See Pearl above

So that leaves May, Schertz, Shrew, etc. May has the IU ties, is young, and has had the most success. And I'd be happy with that choice. 

IMO, that's the way the cookie crumbles. 

39 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Per this article…he borrows some CMK principles. 

 

I found another clip. Basically his offense is the opposite of what we do now. It’s actually a 4 out 1 in with spacing and movement. 

10 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i like to hear this and i'm not doubting, but asking... what style does he coach.  i don't plan to start watching FAU games.  uptempo?  3 point friendly i assume?  anything special on D?

Per this article…he borrows some CMK principles. 

Quote

“The principles on offense of playing your man and on defense playing the ball, that’s essentially our philosophy as well,” the 46-year-old May said after the 2023 NCAA Tournament wrapped up. “We incorporate how to read screens, how to read defenders, a lot of the same principles. But we don't run the same motion offense.”

16 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Right on schedule.  I suggest that fans start taking all of this "you are too invested" talk to heart the next time one of those 812-855-xxxx numbers shows up on your caller ID asking for money.  "Man, I would really like to but I am told that I care about this too much.  I don't spend money on things I don't care about so I am going to have to cut you off so that my not caring can get us some wins.  Good luck though.  I am pulling for you in as indifferent a way as I can muster."

Smug, smart guys on Twitter are the best. They are so great, they can’t even handle their own awesomeness. I think he should run the program. 

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

“You know Don, our strength is inside, but they got that big fella. Mike Woodson has never seen anything like him. I just don’t know how you prepare for a guy like that. But Mike Woodson is here to win championships, I tell ya that. I just gotta get ‘em over the hump Don. Just gotta get ‘em over the hump.”

All seriousness, my concern is if we are climbing over the right hump. 

16 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

 

Like you said earlier: it’s not the losses, it’s how we are losing.

An acceptable progression of results for a new coach we have almost universally agreed upon in the past was…

Year 1 - Lose big

Year 2 - lose small (but be competitive)

Year 3 - win small

Year 4 - win big

Woody has really shuffled the deck with this theory. And you’d think he’d have an advantage with the transfer portal. 

41 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i like this question.  i'm not even talking about IU here...i've been saying the same thing about HS coaches.  my son's team is blowing out everyone in their conference.  i keep saying i don't know why the second time around these coaches don't try something creative.  they know they can't beat us straight up M vs M.  try a zone?  play a junk D since we have two really good scorers?  speed it up?  slow it down?  doesn't seem like colleges do this in general and i guess HS doesn't do it much either.  i would.  granted most of my experience is HS girls and they are more limited and easier to gameplan against, but i still say why not?

It’s the million dollar question. I’ll reiterate some post game analysis from AC. Painter knew what was coming tonight. We walked right into his game plan and made it easy. I think the Purdue guys knew our offense better than we do…….not that it’s hard to learn or anything. 

I don’t know how we can’t execute defensively this late in the season. I don’t know why we get so lost on offense. And to your point, why oh why can’t Woody experiment and implement any sort of change when there’s absolutely no chance of getting back into a game. Throw out a zone. Go to a smaller line up. Have Ware pick and pop on the perimeter and pull Edey out of the middle. Run some set plays for shooters. 

I don’t know. The further we get into games, the tunnel vision of this offense gets narrower and narrower. And we get easier and easier to defend. The only hope for us when we are down more than 10 is playing a team just as inept, like OSU.

Barring a miracle run in tourney (and by miracle I mean all the top seeds crap the bed so we only have to beat bottom dwellers) we are not making the tournament.  We haven’t played back to back games of good basketball, let alone a full 40 minutes of good basketball. 

Can we please now start throwing crap against the wall and see if anything sticks? At least that’d be more entertaining.  

15 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

I thought Hunter brought in Ware. 

And that's kinda my thing, if they are there to recruit and recruit only, it seems like they arent doing a great job. There was an article written about Purdue not too long ago about them pioneering an offensive coordinator role. 

https://www.si.com/college/2024/01/18/how-purdue-mens-basketball-coach-matt-painter-pioneered-offensive-coordinator-role

Per an ITH article in April:

Quote

Assistant coach Yasir Rosemond played a crucial role in developing a relationship with Ware and his family, leading to an official visit on April 6-7.

But that's kinda my point. We don't get much info about the other aspects of their roles (other than recruiting). Even learning who game planned a specific game, we need to do a deep dive to find out, or assume by judging their behavior on the bench. haha. *Side note, if anybody has this info, I'd be interested to see it. 

I do find the idea of 'coordinators' intriguing too. 

We really don’t know what the assistants are actually doing…at least not enough to make an accurate evaluation. When it comes to assistants all we get is what recruits they are leads on. In that sense, it’s a ‘what have you done for me lately.’ There seems to be a narrative going on lately that Walsh is doing all the leg work. Is this because he was the lead on McNeely? Last Spring it seemed like Ya was on a roll, especially after getting Ware. Before that it was Hunter (I remember all those memes). 

I don’t have any info to bring other than my assumption: I doubt most people really know what they are talking about when it comes to this topic.